John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,941 through 19,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862251
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I appreciate the effort but it does nothing to disprove that YHWH is one God manifested in two persons…God of gods (Father) and Lord of lords (Son).

    Both are involved in fathering Israel. Also, Hebrews is the witness that the Son is YHWH who made the earth and stretched out the heavens…

    Read it yourself, clearly, Hebrews tells us that the Father is crediting the Son for what is mentioned in Isaiah 45 and Psalm 102.

    Isaiah 45

    12“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
                I stretched out the heavens with My hands
                And I ordained all their host.

    Psalm 102

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
                And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

          26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
                Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

          27“But You are the same,
                And Your years will not come to an end.

    28“The children of Your servants will continue,
    And their descendants will be established before You.”

    Compare with:

    Heb 1:8But about the Son He says:                                   ABOUT THE SON, JODI, IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garmenth they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    Blessings, LU

    #862253
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    I want to make sure you did not miss this post from yesterday:

    I asked all members here for the answer to these “quiz” questions and Mike was the only one to answer. Yeah Mike!

    Here are the quiz questions and Mike’s answer to them:

     

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?

    2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

     

    Mike’s answer: : Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

     

    The second part of the “quiz” asks this:

    Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:

    “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

     

    Mike’s answer: Both refer to “the LORD”.

    Thank you so much Mike for taking that challenge. When you read the passages as they are together, in a fuller context, you will see that YHWH (the LORD) of hosts sends the YHWH (the LORD).

    Zechariah 2:

    10“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    The LORD will dwell in the midst of the daughter of Zion, the LORD is someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords…two persons interdependently (not independently) the fullness of one YHWH.

    I hope you can see this now. LU

    #862255
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: I appreciate the effort but it does nothing to disprove that YHWH is one God manifested in two persons…God of gods (Father) and Lord of lords (Son).

    ME: Agreed, we have ONE God whose name is YHWH.

    Now Jesus speaks of his God and our God who is his Father and our Father.

    Jesus also quotes Deut 6,

    Hear, O Israel: YHWH OUR God is ONE YHWH: 5 And thou shalt love YHWH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Our ONE GOD is the Father and His name is YHWH, this ONE GOD is also Jesus’s ONE GOD. 

    #862256
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Zechariah 2:

    10“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    The LORD will dwell in the midst of the daughter of Zion, the LORD is someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords…two persons interdependently (not independently) the fullness of one YHWH.

    I hope you can see this now. LU

    Try this one – from 25 Trinitarian scholars…

    Zechariah 2:10-11 NET Bible

    “Sing out and be happy, Zion my daughter! 1  For look, I have come; I will settle in your midst,” says the Lord.  “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord on the day of salvation, 1  and they will also be my 2  people. Indeed, I will settle in the midst of you all.” Then you will know that the Lord who rules over all has sent me to you.

    Notice the quotation marks where the LORD stops talking and Zechariah begins.  Zechariah is saying that when this happens, the people will know that it was Jehovah who sent him to speak to them.  As for the “my people”, the OT is loaded with passages where Jehovah goes from speaking of Himself in the first person to referring to Himself by His name.  NET footnote 2 says…

    The LXX and Syriac have the 3rd person masculine singular suffix in both places (“his people” and “he will settle”; cf. NAB, TEV) in order to avoid the Lord speaking of himself in the third person. Such resort is unnecessary, however, in light of the common shifting of person in Hebrew narrative (cf. 3:2).

    And here is the verse to which they allude…

    Zechariah 3:2 NET Bible

    The Lord 1  said to Satan, “May the Lord rebuke you, Satan! May the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, 2  rebuke you! Isn’t this man like a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

    I’m sure you also know of other passages where Jehovah is saying something like, “I will do this and that”, and ends with “Jehovah has spoken it, and it will be done”.  Doesn’t mean there are two Jehovahs.  Besides, we already know that our Lord’s name is Jesus, and his and our God’s name is Jehovah, right?

    #862257
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: The fact that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON implies identical in nature to the One who beget.

    Human sons have the same human nature as their fathers, so it makes sense to me that Jesus would have the same spirit nature as his Father too.  Of course we can only speculate.

    #862258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.

    I understand what you’re saying.  Do you understand that you’re saying that the Father is a combo of Father and Son while the Son is an IDENTICAL combo of Father and Son?  Because that is what you’re saying, right?  Is that what you believe?

    #862259
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: The fact that we don’t read any other lineage that says “as was thought” in it, doesn’t change what you are being told. But I believe there is reason why in Jesus’s specific case those words are there.

    Me too.  There is a very specific reason why one would say that about Jesus’ human father – but nobody else’s.  And that reason aligns with scripture – but contradicts your claim that Jesus was a product of Mary’s womb and Joseph’s seed.

    Jodi:  Did everyone know during the time Jesus was sent out to preach and perform miracles that he was born of a virgin? If they heard it, did everyone believe it? I doubt it. I believe it is because of this very reason “as was thought” were given by Luke. People assumed he was Joseph’s son, of which Luke tells us that he was. 

    Luke wrote that way after Jesus’ ministry, which included healings and other miracles.  It’s not like he was giving a live sermon while writing the words down.  Jesus was clearly NOT Joseph’s son in any biological sense.  He was mothered by Mary, and fathered by the Holy Spirit.  Joseph didn’t even have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.  You’re welcome to your idea that God snagged some of Joseph’s sperm and fertilized Mary’s egg with it – but it contradicts what the scriptures actually teach.

     

    Jodi:  Nor ignore the fact that the child to be born IS the son of David and that he WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest.

    People bowed to him when he was an infant.  He was the human incarnation of God’s firstborn Son from the moment Mary gave birth.  Of course he had already been God’s firstborn Son from ancient times – long before he became flesh and dwelt on earth.

    #862260
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: When time was near for the Son of Man to be taken captive and crucified, he asked God for the glory that he (the Son of Man) had OF God before the world was. 

    Using a much less sensible and logical translation of “para” won’t help you this time – because you still need to figure out how a person who was only 30 years old could be asking God for a glory HE HAD before the world began.  It’s actually the imperfect tense, and is literally “the glory I KEPT ON HAVING” before the world began.  I realize that you want it to read, “the glory you have been saving for me since before the world began”, but that’s not what the scripture says.

    The person Jesus clearly says that HE KEPT ON HAVING glory of/with God before the world began.  That is only one scripture that contradicts your belief that Jesus began his existence as a human being.  There are many others.  Shall we move on to one of them?

    #862261
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  He is called the word of God because he speaks “God’s the Fathers ” , words to us. 

    That is correct.  Jesus, a living entity, has, as one of his many titles, “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman.  So when it says “the Word” was with God in the beginning, it is talking about this spokesman.  When it says this “Word” became flesh, it is talking about this spokesman who was with God in the beginning, later becoming flesh.  When it says the rider of the white horse has the name “The Word of God”, it is talking about this same spokesman, who was with God in the beginning and later was made flesh, fighting against Satan and his armies in the end times.

    It is the same spokesman throughout.  In the beginning with God.  Being made flesh and dwelling among us on earth for 30 years.  Riding a white horse with a sword coming out of his mouth in the last days.  All the same exact living spokesman.

    #862262
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4.  What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?  What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?

    #862267
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    In Duet. YHWH is said to be the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

    You say the God of gods is the Father and the Lord of lords is the Son, together they equate YHWH and YHWH is our God. 

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    only – monos, ALONE

    The ONLY Lord God is not Jesus, Jesus was MADE lord and Christ by his God who is the ONLY Lord God.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    The one sent LU is NOT the ONLY TRUE GOD, he is who the ONLY TRUE GOD sent.

    Jesus’s God and Father and our God and Father is He who is God of gods and Lord of lords. This God of gods and Lord of lords MADE Jesus into a lord. 

    Deut 15: 5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

    Jesus’s was sent out where he learned obedience, where he followed his God’s commands, that God is YHWH, and the Son of Man Jesus returns where he is to continue to obey YHWH.

    You want us to believe LU that YHWH is One God who must take commands from YHWH? 

     

    #862269
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Jodi, your posting habits are breaking the topic so when we post, we are not forwarded to our post. I will post this and see if it has rectified itself. If not, I will go into the Spam queue and see if unspamming posts fixes it. If nothing works, it would still be good to know how you are able to do this. Knowing that would help in a fix.

    #862270
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good it rectified itself I see. Sorry guys if this happens again, but it seems it will come right eventually regardless.

    #862271
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:Luke wrote that way after Jesus’ ministry, which included healings and other miracles. It’s not like he was giving a live sermon while writing the words down. Jesus was clearly NOT Joseph’s son in any biological sense. He was mothered by Mary, and fathered by the Holy Spirit. Joseph didn’t even have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. You’re welcome to your idea that God snagged some of Joseph’s sperm and fertilized Mary’s egg with it – but it contradicts what the scriptures actually teach.

    ME:

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the GENESIS of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat (GENNAO, fathered by) Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.  So all the generations (GENEA/genealogy) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

    Mike you have blinders on. The GENESIS of Jesus, where he is being declared to be the son of Abraham and David is through Jesus being of the genes of Jacob. The genetic lineage goes from Abraham to David by 14 generations and then from David there are 14 generations and then there are an additional 14 generations unto Christ. You don’t get unto Christ without going through JACOB. Jesus holds the genes of Jacob and that is how he is declared by Matthew to be the son of Abraham and David.

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    OF  EK, of, from, out of

    Joseph the son of David and Mary were going to come together, but he needed to wait because God had promised unto the house of David that He would bring forth the promised son of David by a SIGN, a virgin birth. God brought forth that sign by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    her, AUTOS, himself, herself, themselves, itself
    he, she, it
    the same

    Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth HIS/THEIR firstborn son: and HE called his name JESUS. 

    Psalm 132:10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and <span style=”color: red;”>the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David</span>: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end….

    …67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    The child not yet born IS called David’s son, and that child is said he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. Prophecy tells you likewise, that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God says that He would be a Father to him.   

    The purpose of the virgin birth is for the house of David to know that God’s oath He swore concerning David’s son would be fulfilled, the SIGN was to recognize when that son had been born.

    The virgin birth was NOT a sign so that we would turn and equate Jesus to the likes of a PAGAN DEMIGOD. 

    #862272
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    I don’t know what you mean about my posting habits breaking the topic, lol, could you explain a bit further?

    What else am I suppose to do but add text to the box and click submit? 🙂

    I just went to edit a post because the highlight was screwed up and when I submitted it the post was deleted again.

    #862273
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME:

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the GENESIS of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat (GENNAO, fathered by) Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.  So all the generations (GENEA/genealogy) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

    Mike you have blinders on. The GENESIS of Jesus, where he is being declared to be the son of Abraham and David is through Jesus being of the genes of Jacob. The genetic lineage goes from Abraham to David by 14 generations and then from David there are 14 generations and then there are an additional 14 generations unto Christ. You don’t get unto Christ without going through JACOB. Jesus holds the genes of Jacob and that is how he is declared by Matthew to be the son of Abraham and David.

     

    #862274
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    OF  EK, of, from, out of

    Joseph the son of David and Mary were going to come together, but he needed to wait because God had promised unto the house of David that He would bring forth the promised son of David by a SIGN, a virgin birth. God brought forth that sign by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    her, AUTOS, himself, herself, themselves, itself
    he, she, it
    the same

    Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth HIS/THEIR firstborn son: and HE called his name JESUS. 

    Psalm 132:10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end….

    …67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    The child not yet born IS called David’s son, and that child is said he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. Prophecy tells you likewise, that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God says that He would be a Father to him.   

    The purpose of the virgin birth is for the house of David to know that God’s oath He swore concerning David’s son would be fulfilled, the SIGN was to recognize when that son had been born.

    The virgin birth was NOT a sign so that we would turn and equate Jesus to the likes of a PAGAN DEMIGOD.

    #862283
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi to all

     

    “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us…” (Isaiah 9:5)

    For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)

    (Isaiah 7:1-16) The Syrian-Ephraim war had served as the historical background for a major revelation concerning the coming of the Savior or Messiah, “Christ,” promised by God-in veiled terms (Genesis 3:15)-from the first human failure. Isaiah uses the same framework to add a second, equally remarkable revelation. There, his conception will surpass all human experience, even that of Abraham, who is called to believe that God will give him a son, Isaac, despite the impossibility of the thing seen by men. Here the prophet emphasizes the divine nature of the Messiah, which helps to explain the extraordinary statement of the previous oracle.

    Isaiah lists four titles, each consisting of two terms.

    (1) “Wonderful Counselor,” that is, “the prophet par excellence,” his counsel is the counsel of God himself; he has the infallibility of all knowledge, because he has the Spirit of God without measure. (Isaiah 11:2; cf. John 3:34) He has the infallibility of all knowledge, because he has the Spirit of God without measure. This title associates him with the one God of Israel (cf. Isaiah 28:29, where Isaiah presents God himself in similar terms).

    The child will have extraordinary wisdom for the exercise of kingship; he will be like a new Solomon, even more glorious than he is. The anointing of the Spirit from which he will benefit may explain this extraordinary wisdom.

    This “child”, Jesus, is born for the benefit of sinners, as well as for the benefit of all believers throughout the world. His Love causes the wonder of angels and glorified saints. He is the “Counsellor” par excellence, for He knows God’s plans from the beginning; He counsels men for their own good. No one is capable of teaching like Him.

    2. “2. He is the “Mighty God” or “Strong God. Infallible in his verdicts, the unborn child will exercise, despite appearances (cf. Isaiah 53:2-10), the power to bring about divine justice (cf. Matthew 26:53) by virtue of his divine nature.

    3. “3. “Father of eternity. This expression means that this descendant of David will have an endless, eternal reign. This third attribute relates to the duration of his lordship, that is, without end (cf. the absence of a beginning, according to the statement of Jesus himself, John 17:5).

    4. “Prince of Peace”. This title emphasizes the ability of this king to establish lasting peace during his reign. (Isa 11:5-9) The title “Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 confirms the extraordinary nature of that king’s reign. It is more than the absence of armed conflict. The word “peace” (šalôm) indicates that his reign will be characterized by universal harmony and the complete fulfillment of all his subjects, forever delivered from fear. (1 John 4:18) This is the first time that the word “peace” has been used in the Bible. (1 John 4:18) The redeemed will live in perfect peace with their ruler. (Romans 5:1) The redeemed will live in unison with their ruler.

    As the Prince of Peace, He reconciles us to God; He is the One who gives peace in our hearts and consciences; and when His Kingdom is fully established, men will no longer seek to make war. His Peace will grow unceasingly, for the perpetual happiness of His people.

    Aloys Evina

     

    #862284
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and LU,

    Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    The person who receives dominion you are given exactly what KIND of being he is. 

    PSALM 8 tells you that the ONE who created the heavens YHWH, becomes mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visits him, makes him a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, CROWNS this human being with glory and honor, and gives this human being dominion over that which YHWH created. The one who receives dominion IS NOT the ONE who created that which he receives dominion over. Thus as evident from this passage we can see clearly that all things that YHWH created He would have done so for the person He intended to give it to for to have eternal dominion over.  By REASON OF and FOR THIS HUMAN BEING did YHWH do the work that He did with HIS hands alone from the beginning. 

    Psalms 8 begins, “1 O YHWH our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.”

    The one that receives dominion is a HUMAN BEING, the one who gives it to him is YHWH our Lord, and HIS name is excellent. The human being who is given dominion overall, most certainly thus BECOMES a lord of lords. This human being is ordained by YHWH to judge the quick and the dead. As a lord judging the quick and the dead he does so not by his own eyes and ears, but through YHWH’s righteousness that directs all his ways.

    According to Luke 1, The CHILD to be born IS the son of David who WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. This child grows being filled with wisdom and YHWH’s GRACE is upon him, where he knows to choose the good over the evil.

    When this child is about 30 years old the Spirit descends like a dove and begets Jesus in full measure and power, for the purpose for him to be SENT to do YHWH’s work.

    This Jesus was MADE by the Spirit into the FORM of YHWH, he was the human being who YHWH said He would make a little lower than the angels.

    God’s righteous angels carry out YHWH’s will, just as Jesus is being SENT out to do, but unlike the angels who cannot die, Jesus is in the likeness of all men, he is still a mortal human able to be tempted and able to die. Though he can be tempted as he is still a man of mortal flesh, he cannot sin because he is also in the form of God. As YHWH had promised unto the son of Jesse he who would receive of the Spirit, it was a calling to righteousness where YHWH would direct all his ways, holding his hand and keeping him for to be a LIGHT unto all nations of people. That LIGHT is the life of men, where like a lamb without spot or blemish is sacrificed to bring forth salvation.

    HOW PERFECT, as YHWH’s WORD from the beginning was not ONLY salvation but WORD of a man who would come and execute that purpose. By that man we are told he justifies people from ALL THINGS. YHWH created all things by Himself with the purpose of LIFE, which that life comes from the very man spoken of by YHWH from the beginning.

    In this man is LIFE thus in this man did ALL things consist that had been made by YHWH alone in the beginning.

     

    #862285
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Jesus is not God the Fathers word, he was not even in existence at the beginning John was talking about.  Jesus is no more God’s word the if I said I was your word. You are your own word,unless someone is quoting you,  you and your word are the same. SO IT IS WITH GOD, HE AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING.  why then did Jesus deny being GOD’S WORD, if what you say is true  SAYING “the words I am telling you “ARE NOT”,  my words, but the Words of him who sent me”, How much clearer can you get then that?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

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