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Absolutely, so why do you believe the Jesus will come twice?
Logic is one reason.
God brings the law and the law condemns.
God brings grace and forgives those who are repentant.
God works through one flock, the Jews, and they have the law.
God works through another flock, the Church, and they have grace.
God is sovereign. He can unravel his plan as he sees fit.
God sends the Lamb of God that forgives all sin for all time.
Up to us to choose to align with God’s glorious plan or reject it.
If the Word Was God, then that excludes the Father from being God.
If Donald Trump is the president, then Kamala Harris is NOT the president.
If you are someone, then no one else is that someone.
Basic stuff.
And the simple version is correct. The lack of the definite article tells us that the last mention of theos is not talking about The God. Origen said this on the subject:
“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article [“the], and theos without it, prevail also between logos with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As God who is over all is theos with the article [“the”] not without it, so also “the” logos is the source of that logos (reason} which dwells in every reasonable creature; the logos which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence “the” logos. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him, of whom “the” theos is “the” theos, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the ho logos (“the word”) of ho theos (“the god”) , who was in the beginning, and who by being with “the” theos (“God”) is at all times theos (“god”), not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos, if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)What do you think about these things from Origen:
More from Origen:
1. Psalm 102 → Hebrews 1:10–12 applied to the Son
Source: Contra Celsum 1.67
“In speaking of the Son he says: ‘Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth…’”2. Psalm 102 → The Son as Creator
Source: De Principiis 1.2.2
“The Son… is said in the Epistle to the Hebrews to have laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens.”3. Psalm 102 → The Son’s immutability
Source: De Principiis 1.2.8
“The Son… is said to be unchangeable: ‘Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.’”4. Psalm 102 → Explicitly “said of the Son”
Source: Commentary on John 1.37
“It is said of the Son: ‘Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth…’”5. Psalm 102 → Eternal years of the Son
Source: Homilies on Jeremiah 9.4
“Concerning the Son it is written: ‘Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.’”6. YHWH who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob = the Son
Source: Contra Celsum 5.39
“The God who appeared to the patriarchs was the Logos of God… not the invisible Father.”7. YHWH in the burning bush = the Son
Source: Homilies on Exodus 4.5
“The one who speaks to Moses from the bush is the Son of God.”8. YHWH who speaks through the prophets = the Son
Source: De Principiis 1.2.6–7
“It was the Son of God who spoke in the prophets… the same Christ who later became man.”9. YHWH who wrestled with Jacob = the Son
Source: Commentary on Genesis (fragment)
Origen identifies the divine figure who wrestles with Jacob as the Logos, not the Father.10. YHWH who walked in the Garden = the Son
Source: De Principiis 4.4.1
Origen says the visible God who walked and spoke is always the Son, since the Father is invisible.11. YHWH who destroyed Sodom = the Son
Source: Commentary on Genesis (fragment)
Origen says the “Lord” who rained fire from the Lord is the Logos.12. YHWH who gave the Law = the Son
Source: Homilies on Exodus 12.4
Origen says the Son is the one who gave the Law to Moses.13. YHWH who appeared to Isaiah = the Son
Source: Commentary on John 2.2
Origen affirms John 12:41: Isaiah saw the glory of Christ, the divine Lord on the throne.14. YHWH who appeared to Joshua as “Captain of the Lord’s Host” = the Son
Source: Homilies on Joshua 2.1
Origen identifies the divine commander as Christ.15. YHWH who spoke to Samuel = the Son
Source: Homilies on 1 Samuel (fragment)
Origen says the divine voice is the Logos, not the Father.SUMMARY:
Origen consistently identifies the Son as the visible YHWH of the Old Testament—Creator, Lawgiver, the One who appears, speaks, saves, judges, and reigns. He applies Psalm 102 (a YHWH text) directly to the Son multiple times and treats all divine manifestations as the work of the Logos.Is this another drive by commentary or will you engage in a conversation?
Your response comes from my comment to Lightenup where he says the Tanakh DOESN’T say The Messiah is to come twice and your response is “logic”?!??! Please enlighten me! The only “logic” needed is what the Tanakh says.
The Tanakh says The Messiah is to be a descendant of David and Solomon – the Jesus fails; it says The Messiah will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel, but the Jesus says he’s come to divide – another fail; it says The Messiah will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, but it was standing while he was alive – fail again. It says The Messiah will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments and we seem to be still waiting for that one – another the Jesus fail; The Messiah will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d, it says “all people” not a limited number that “believe” in the Jesus and we’re still waiting – big the Jesus fail.
These are some of the actions The Messiah will do when he comes and the Jesus did none of them while he was here; in order for the christian to explain all these failures away, they claim he will do them when he returns and where does the Jesus ever say he will do these things? Never mind the time frame that he said he would return in (Matthew 24; Rev 1 & 22).
Let’s “logically” look at the millennial reign when the Jesus rules, but many will be deceived by Satan at the end and that’s “logical” to you? Sounds like the Jesus did a poor job and where is the NT bible that explains this ending, did it get lost; did the Jesus NOT warn them of this ending? And you want to talk “logic”?
God brings the law and the law condemns. God brings grace and forgives those who are repentant.
Where does G-d say the “law condemns”? The “law” given at Mnt Sinai was a set of instructions on how the Israeli nation was to live in regards to each other and other people. These instructions were to set them apart from other nations. Do we read the same bible? To say the “law condemns” is a NT teaching and is a lie from the great liar Paul. Your next statement is 100% true; it is from G-d’s grace and mercy that he forgives when one turn from their wickedness, HE even says HE’LL remember it no more (remember Jonah and Nineveh). Which makes your next statement extremely odd:
God works through one flock, the Jews, and they have the law. God works through another flock, the Church, and they have grace.
So the Jews only have the “law” and grace is only reserved today for the “church”?!?! Again, are we reading from the same bible? I think what it is, the “church” spends to much time in the NT philosophizing and NOT enough time reading and studying what G-d actually said in the first half of the bible. I’ve said this before, the “church” follows Paul and NOT the Jesus; what Paul taught and what the Jesus taught clash, IF one were to study what each said.
God is sovereign. He can unravel his plan as he sees fit.
Absolutely! HE is the creator of all things, seen and unseen and HE is free to do as HE wishes, no dispute; however, HE has already revealed HIS plan and all you have to do is read the Tanakh.
So you wholly rely on the interpretations of man…interesting!
When are you going to read and study what G-d said or do the interpretations of man supersede G-d’s words?
@ LU
HI LU
Interesting what say Origen about the Son as the visible YHWH of the Old Testament,
E.G.White largely agrees with Origen and explains why it is not the Father who intervenes in His dealings with humanity.
Devotionals is
That I May Know HimGod was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19.
All through the pages of sacred history, where the dealings of God with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of the great I AM…. In all these revelations of the divine presence, the glory of God was manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour’s advent, but through all the ages after the fall and the promise of redemption, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.” Christ was the foundation and center of the sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since the sin of our first parents, there has been no direct communication between God and man. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man, and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man’s Substitute and Surety….
The solemn service of the sanctuary typified the grand truths that were to be revealed through successive generations. The cloud of incense ascending with the prayers of Israel represents His righteousness that alone can make the sinner’s prayer acceptable to God; the bleeding victim on the altar of sacrifice testified of a Redeemer to come; and from the holy of holies the visible token of the divine presence shone forth. Thus through age after age of darkness and apostasy, faith was kept alive in the hearts of men until the time came for the advent of the promised Messiah. Jesus was the light of His people,—the light of the world,—before He came to earth in the form of humanity…. From Him has come every ray of heaven’s brightness that has fallen upon the inhabitants of the earth. In the plan of redemption, Christ is the Alpha and the Omega,—the First and the Last.9Patriarchs and Prophets, 366, 367.
From That I May Know Him – Page 102
Blessings
Your response comes from my comment to Lightenup where he says the Tanakh DOESN’T say The Messiah is to come twice and your response is “logic”?!??! Please enlighten me! The only “logic” needed is what the Tanakh says.
God has a plan. The enemies of God wants to know that plan. But God reveals his plan to his people / the innocent. He doesn’t write it all down so any old person or demon can counter his plans. Even Jesus spoke in parables so the wicked would not understand.
It’s logical to not tell your enemies your battle plan. After all, the Devil had Jesus killed. But he didn’t know what that would do. He didn’t know the plan. But in hindsight, you can see it when you read the scriptures.
Lightenup–Every spot in OT where LORD all capitols=YHWH, not Yeshua. You are being mislead. Psalm 110:1 is proof of that fact-The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) sit at my( not ours) right hand until i( not we or us) make your enemies as a stool for your feet.
desiretruth,
You are talking about God’s word.
Well, John 17:3 …
We need God and his Son Jesus Christ for salvation.
Do you accept God’s word?
@Danny Dabbs,
Welcome back, it’s been awhile.
Which side of the “bible” are you speaking of when you say, “You are talking about God’s word”?
I have been quoting from the Tanakh and what G-d spoke thru HIS prophets concerning The Messiah and none have been able to refute what I have written OR substantiate what they believe is truth with the Tanakh. All have run in the opposite direction and refuse to engage in a real conversation of what the Tanakh says. All have turned to their belief system as proof and NOT scripture.
You quote John 17:3; “eternal life” comes from simply knowing G-d is the only true G-d and the Jesus. According to that statement I’m good; I know G-d is the one and only true G-d and the Jesus was a historical figure.
I have been asking whether or not the Jesus fulfilled what was said of The Messiah according to the Tanakh and therefore did G-d truly “send him.” Please answer when the Jesus did the following; to say he will accomplish this when he returns, please provide the passage from the Tanakh that states The Messiah is to come twice.
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct male descendant of both King David and King Solomon.
(Genesis 49:10; I Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; II Samuel 7:12-16)He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)He will rule at a time of world-wide peace
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments
“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d
“And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)Spend more time with what G-d said (Tanakh) and less time with what man created (NT); it will change your world and you will no longer have to live in fear of what happens when you die.
We need God and his Son Jesus Christ for salvation.
We’ve been over this and you haven’t explained why I need the Jesus for salvation when G-d has already offered a simple plan. HE said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and HE would remember your sins no more; what did HE mean or did our “unchanging G-d” suddenly change?
Do you accept God’s word?
Interesting question! In short, YES I accept G-d’s words and will quote all day from the Tanakh where G-d actually spoke (hint: G-d says/said, Lord says/said, G-d spoke, etc). The more pressing question is who’s “word” do you accept? If you hold the NT above the Tanakh, then prove it is; I have said all along the Tanakh is the foundation for the NT and if that is true, then the Tanakh supersedes the NT and is therefore the authority which the NT is based upon and then MUST align with it. Unfortunately, for the christian, I have shown the NT DOESN’T align with the Tanakh, thus rendering the NT as a false book. Prove me wrong!
In the Ot,(early NT) they made sacrifices( blood of animals or birds)to get sins blotted out–Jesus’ blood was the ransom sacrifice. This opened the door to all mortals on Earth, yet FEW have found the road. Why? Because 99% of all religion is false.
In the Ot,(early NT) they made sacrifices( blood of animals or birds)to get sins blotted out
This is a false understanding that has been pushed by the NT; what did G-d say? It was G-d who said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and HE would remember your sin no more. Do you recall the passage where the prophet Hosea (14:2) says, Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, “You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us the good way, and let us render for bulls the offering of our lips.”; this sounds like prayer. Blood was the only thing to bring forgiveness?!?!
Was “blood” really required for atonement? In Lev 5:5-13 we read a lamb or goat must be brought, if that isn’t affordable bring two doves or pigeons, if that isn’t affordable bring flour. Is there blood in flour? Additionally, in Ps 51:16-17 David tells us God doesn’t want sacrifices, but a repentant spirit. However, Hebrews 9:22 tells us, “And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission” and this contradicts what God said.
It was G-d who said wickedness shall be upon the one who commits the wickedness (Ezek 18:20-28); and G-d repeats HIMSELF twice…may be important! Since wickedness belongs to the one who commits it, how can anyone take on someone else’s sin as christianity says the Jesus did when G-d said sin belong to the one who committed it? Explain Exod 32:30-34 when G-d rejected Moses trying to make atonement for the sin of the Israelite’s?
Curious, where in the Tanakh does it say The Messiah was to take on the sins of mankind? Since scripture is suppose to “confirm” itself, there must be more than a single passage that states this.
99% of all religion is false.
Yours however is part of the 1%??? How so?? What manmade “laws” has your faith created that cause one to be “shunned”, pushed to the back of the church, and ignored if they “violate” said “laws”; and will remain this way until they are “restored”? Sounds like these “laws” in the church today are kind of like what christianity accuses the Pharisees of creating back in the first century…rules, rules, rules. Mind you, I’m NOT singling your out faith, but all christian faiths that have rules that must be followed. Pandora’s box is big!
3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.You are so far over in your head! You can’t explain what Isaiah 53 is saying; yet, you’re going to use it as “proof” this “servant” is the Jesus?!?!!? You where told it was a reference to the Jesus, not that it’s what the chapter is about. To find out who this “servant” is, one would have to read the previous chapters (start in 41); it actually says who the “servant” is. SHOCKER!!!! Hint, it’s NOT the Jesus; but the christian likes “parachute theology”; just drop in a verses that they can make into the Jesus. Context is everything!!
Like I said, christians are taught the bible confirms itself; where are the other Tanakh passages that confirm The Messiah was to be a human sacrifice that atones for sin? Guaranteed silence!
Please provide at least two passages where G-d finds a human as an acceptable form of sacrifice. Is this more silence I’m hearing!!
Also, where did G-d command all sacrifices to be performed and where was the Jesus “sacrificed”? And a hush falls over the crowd!
My guess is your head will explode because your false goddess won’t have an answer for you to give and you’ll simply ignore what I’m asking…like always.
Your silence, just like all who participate here, is deafening!! Why is the “christian” unable to answer simple questions for what they believe? Why does the christian run from that which they are unable to explain, but cling to what their cult leader tells them is truth. When will YOU verify what you have been told it truth?
When will you verify for yourself if what you have been taught is true?
@ DT
And you, are you sure you have verified EVERYTHING?
Are you truly capable of telling us who it is upon whom God has laid the iniquity of us all? (As it is written in verse 6)
IF YES, THEN TELL US ABOUT THE ONE UPON WHOM GOD HAS LAYED THE INQUIRY OF US ALL.
We have been over this verse by verse before and will gladly go over it again; however, part of having a conversation is injecting your thoughts into it and supporting what you believe. Back up what you believe with scripture.
There are basically four sections in this “Fourth Servant Song”; who is speaking where?
52:13-15
53:1-3
53:4-9
53:10-12I asked you two specific questions in my last post
1) And you, are you sure you have verified EVERYTHING?
2) Are you truly capable of telling us who it is upon whom God has laid the iniquity of us all? (As it is written in verse 6)
IF YES, THEN TELL US ABOUT THE ONE UPON WHOM GOD HAS LAYED THE INiQUITY OF US ALL.
You do realize the question I asked will cause you to answer your own questions. This will be a series of questions and subsequent answers for you to verify and for you to prove me either right or wrong.
You’re asking a question I have already answered in previous post; I have been over this chapter verse by verse. So to ask this question again without first laying the ground work that leads to this verse in question, would be a waste of time.
Can we go thru this chapter verse by verse?
If Jesus came as a mortal on Earth today–they would kill him. Why? Man lives in fear-not love. At the end of the Great tribulation ( Rev 16)Every kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead into standing in opposition to Gods king( Jesus)—- they come to kill it says. They are mislead now and are standing in opposition. 99.9999% on Earth are blinded by the darkness( 2 Cor 4:4-Luke 17:26) 99% of all religion is false.
Apparently you don’t want to go over this chapter again.
As far as who is speaking in the chapter, I’ll fill in the blanks for you since you can’t:
52:13-15 – God describes the suffering and eventual restoration of the servant (Israel) and it shocks the nations.
53:1-3 – The nations restate what God said in 52:13-15.
53:4-9 – The nations give their explanation of why Israel suffered.
53:10-12 – God’s explains why Israel suffered and the reward when they turn back to HIM.The chapter before (52) and after (54) are also about Israel; so why is 53 suddenly about the Jesus?
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