John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 25,987 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #4445
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi nate,
    The Tribunal of Christ is a judgement but not of condemnation.

    #4446
    Anonymous
    Guest

    agreed

    #4495
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Surely the terms “The Logos” and the “Son of God” are interchangeable. Jesus called himself both Son of God and Son of Man. Are those terms interchangeable? I think not as they speak of different times and origins. Jesus used the second term about himself far more frequently than the first. So what does Son of Man tell us? Surely it says that he is of our flesh. He has been conceived of the seed of David and has partaken of our physical earthly origins?

    What then of Son of God? Surely by the same argument it means he was begotten in the beginning of the Father alone? It is interesting that Satan used that term Son of God when testing him and demons also addressed him as Son of God also. When Peter said also Jesus was the Son of God then Jesus knew he had been born from above.

    The little word 'of' contains some important messages.

    #4500
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps.
    If The Son of God is the Logos then it gives a new impact to this scripture in 1 John 4.14
    ” We have seen for ourselves and can testify that the Father has sent the Son as saviour of the world. When anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God ,God dwells in him”

    and 1Jn 5.5″ Who,then is the conquereor of the world? The one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God”

    and 1 Jn 5.9″ Do we not accept human testimony? The testimony of God is much greater; it is the testimony God has given on His son's behalf. Whoever believes in the Son of God possesses that testimony in his heart. Whoever does not believe God, has made God a liar by refusing to believe in the testimony He has given on His own son's behalf. The testimony is this :God gave us eternal life and this life is in His Son”

    and 1Jn 5.20″ We know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to recognise the One who is true. And we are in the One who is true for we are in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life”

    The opposite is to say that if we do not recognise and acknowledge the Son of God in all his glory we do not have the Father dwelling in us, we are not conquerors of the world, we call God a liar and we do not have eternal life?

    #4504
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 13 2004,16:15)
    Hi,
    Surely the terms “The Logos” and the “Son of God” are interchangeable. Jesus called himself both Son of God and Son of Man. Are those terms interchangeable?  I think not as they speak of different times and origins. Jesus used the second term about himself far more frequently than the first. So what does Son of Man tell us? Surely it says that he is of our flesh. He has been conceived of the seed of David and has partaken of our physical earthly origins?

    What then of Son of God? Surely by the same argument it means he was begotten in the beginning of the Father alone? It is interesting that Satan used that term Son of God when testing him and demons also addressed him as Son of God also. When Peter said also Jesus was the Son of God then Jesus knew he had been born from above.

    The little word 'of' contains some important messages.


    A good post Nick.

    #4515
    david999
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 21 2004,03:39)
    cont.
    so when Jesus said to the Jews
    “Truly ,truly I say unto you. Before Abraham was born ,I AM”
    he was simply stating the truth, not saying He was the Father but he existed in the beginning with the Father.


    Hello

    I am new to this. I have a question or a statement which has plagued me for some time. My assumption is as follows:

    1.  The God is one and is unbegotten
    2.  The Word is the only begotten.

    My question is: Was there a time when the God (Father) was alone? Thus; Did the Farher “remember” a time when the Son (Logos) did not exist?

    I will explain my feelings on this. God is the source of the Son. He is also unchanging. The Father did not “come up” with the idea of having a Son. My conclusion on this is that the Father is eternal in a sense which the Son is not and yet the Son is eternal and yet contingent. The Father is eternal and not contingent. I call this a conclusion and yet it is tentative. I am a seeker. I am not here to teach or to regale anyone with my profundity or knowledge but rather to learn. I consider myself to be woefully ignorant on the things of God and am not by nature a philosopher. I am open to any help in resolving this tentative “conclusion”.

    #4517
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To david999

    I think the difficulty with this one is that time itself was most likely created and we know that all creation was made through Christ by God. But I think that in the beginning was God and inside himself there was and is wisdom and truth. But God expressed this wisdom and truth as the Logos so that the Logos was with God as a seperate entity but in unity with him in will and purpose.

    In other words God gave these attributes in himself a will so that he begat an image, the Logos of God the ONLY begotten of the Father and his full expression.

    In some way I think that we too are God's thoughts and we are given life and a will to exist as seperate from God, but in unity of will if we choose. This experience is not only amazing for us as we are given life and then we learn about God forever, whilst praising his holy name. But God too gets to look through the eyes of all his creation and to see how he is perceived by us.

    In this God's love is made perfect that he should bestow upon us the priviledge as being the sons of God.

    The son of God himself is wisdom and truth in person, but God did not loose his truth and wisdom by birthing an image who would be called the Truth and Wisdom.

    As it was written by Tatian (165 A.D):

    For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him

    and

    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world

    Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D) said the following:

    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things.

    Some pearls of wisdom from Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D)

    May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through him who was begotten before time began. (To the Antiochians, XIV).

    I hope this helps?

    #4521
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes t8 and David999,
    Time only started at creation . Before that was “The Beginning” where God existed alone and then begat the only Begotten Son of God. God is love and love needs to express itself. He expressed that love towards His Son and all subsequent creation. That love continues towards all, especially those who are born into His son.

    What does “eternal” mean? Is it a retrospective term? The Word of God says eternal life is in the Son of God [1Jn]So that is talking of the future, not the past?

    #4594
    david999
    Participant

    Quote (david999 @ Nov. 15 2004,06:41)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 21 2004,03:39)
    cont.
    so when Jesus said to the Jews
    “Truly ,truly I say unto you. Before Abraham was born ,I AM”
    he was simply stating the truth, not saying He was the Father but he existed in the beginning with the Father.


    Hello

    I am new to this. I have a question or a statement which has plagued me for some time. My assumption is as follows:

    1.  The God is one and is unbegotten
    2.  The Word is the only begotten.

    My question is: Was there a time when the God (Father) was alone? Thus; Did the Farher “remember” a time when the Son (Logos) did not exist?

    I will explain my feelings on this. God is the source of the Son. He is also unchanging. The Father did not “come up” with the idea of having a Son. My conclusion on this is that the Father is eternal in a sense which the Son is not and yet the Son is eternal and yet contingent. The Father is eternal and not contingent. I call this a conclusion and yet it is tentative. I am a seeker. I am not here to teach or to regale anyone with my profundity or knowledge but rather to learn. I consider myself to be woefully ignorant on the things of God and am not by nature a philosopher. I am open to any help in resolving this tentative “conclusion”.


    Hello Nick??

    Navigating this forum is a little strange to me. I think I am replying to the post that first reponded to me. It was helpful and i am interested in reading some of the writings quoted.

    The problem with modern Christianity is that it threatens the honest seeker with “damnation” and all manner of woes for not subscribing to the orthodoxy( “essentials of the faith”). It is clear that a person who is honest cannot accept what they cannot understand or believe. The Father is revealed by the son who cannot do anything of himself. He is, as you say, the expression of the Father. My problem was and, to some extent, still is that the Father was never expressionless(I think). That “time” was created by God perplexes me and anyone who thinks as any human would. The natural tendency is to imagine a “divine time” in which the Father creates “natural” time. But as you say God knows all and he knows each one of us. His knowing is from eternity and therefore we are from eternity as a thought in the mind of the Eternal. We are not begotten but are the result of the creation which we are told is the work of the Logos. Christ must be differentiated from us and this is accomplished by his being described as the only begotten one. I am still left with no clear definition which explains “begotten” as opposed to created. I am left to “philosophizing” or guessing. The scriptures are not explicit on this and I am guessing that it is to be revealed to the genuine seeker. The Trinity doctrine is a crude attempt to bridge this gap but it ends up contradicting Christ's own words. Christ goes at great lengths to deny that he is the equal of his Father but then, on the other hand, explicitly states that he who has seen him has seen the Father. The son is exactly as the Father would be if He, the Father, could be visible to us. The ineffable becomes comprehensible ONLY through the Son. Communion with the Father is only possible through the mediation of the Son. I understand this as an essential truth. In any case, I am part way there but still a bit perplexed. God is at no time without expression. Christ is His expression towards us. Christ as Logos must be the one whom Elohim implies when He speaks of “in our image” or “Let US make man in our image.

    If, as you say, God created time then the expression “before” begetting is impossible or befuddling. The nature of the Eternal then cannot be understood by us mere humans. The only way He can be understood is by His Logos who is with Him at the begininng and is begotten and not created. This is as far as i can go at this time.

    David999 who is seeking and has been helped by this forum but who can honestly say that he is not there yet.

    David [QUOTE]

    #4595
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi David 999,
    the essence of begotten is “produced alone”.No one else was involved. Jesus was the only begotten Son but other sons are mentioned in Gen 6 and Jod 1,2,38 and as The Son of God was involved in creation they were not begotten and neither are we when we are born again.
    We need to forget about time and imagine eternity.We take it for granted as have always had it as a measure in our lives .Time was created for God's purposes and will cease when eternity continues at the end of time.
    The Son reveals the Father because he is filled with the Father's Spirit. But Jesus also has his own nature, personality and will that submits utterly to the Father's will. It is not that he cannot do anything of himself but he chooses to submit to the Father's will “Not my will but thine be done” He is not a robot or shell or puppet.
    Most of what you say is good but don't expect to understand it . We all distill truth and then wait till we can get the understanding from the Spirit.
    “Our image” as you say reflects God and his firstborn Son in the beginning.

    #4596
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A post regarding time.

    Albert Einstein had some interesting things to say about it. He and other scientists say that time was created when the universe was created. They see time and space as the next dimension and if they are right that could be why we find it hard to imagine. It is difficult for most of us to think beyond 3 dimensions, yet scientists and mathematician say there are many more given the complexity of numbers and laws in the universe.

    I also think that the throne of God is in the highest heaven (or highest dimension) and from there all other dimensions are visible. Just as we can see all of a piece of paper which symbolises 2 dimensional space being viewable from our 3 dimensional space, so it could be that all is visible from the highest heaven.

    But God creates things in the image of. We are created in the image of himself and water is the image of spirit just as  physical light is the image of spirtual light. So maybe time is in the image of eternity. It could be that eternity is linear from a certain perspective but time as we know it is but a moment or point in that eternal realm.

    But if we think about time, it perplexes us that God existed forever in the past. We can easily accept that eternal life is forever. But how do we understand that God existed 1 trillion years ago and 1 trillion years before that an so on forever and ever.

    After a while you start to see how inadequate time is for expressing things, and if we start playing around with speed, we also see that time is not consistent with our understanding of it. Like the hypothetical guy who travelled at the speed of light for 20 years and came back to earth only to find that millenia had passed by.

    My thoughts accept the fragility of how we perceive time. Yet however we view eternity, I still think scripture is clear that the son was born from God and God became a Father at that moment. The word beginning can be used, but time was perhaps created at the moment God created the first thing and we know that all things were created through Christ but that Christ is not created. The way I see this is in the following:

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    So just as the man existed when the woman did not and Christ existed when Adam did not, so it is that Christ came from God and God is the everlasting one. But Christ was begotten before creation itself, so he was not assembled by physical parts, rather the Logos came from inside God himself. The Logos was the thought of God that he expressed in order for the Logos to exist as his own person. Hence the Logos was with God. This is before the universe so how Christ was with God, is unfathomable to us. But as God begat a son he didn't stop there. Through him he created all things and for him.

    And this is where we are in the picture. We are created with the priviledge of being born again by the Spirit of God, so that even Christ calls us brethren. But we look through a glass dimly especially when we look back.

    For example could you think of the colour green if you were blind from birth? Could you imagine what Mozart sounds like if you were always deaf. How can we who are created, understand what it was like before creation?

    Maybe we will know when we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Who knows? But I do not say this in order to give up asking or seeking. Certainly not. Keep seeking I say. I know God has revealed to me a lot more than I thought he would of.

    But let's look at a hypothetical situation. Imagine the Internet in 1000 years from now if the end were not nigh and man hadn't destroyed himself. Let's imagine that Search Engines got smarter and eventually this lead to Artificial Intelligence (AI). Imagine if AI became so smart that it could actually think like us and make opinions about things. Let's also forget for a moment that spirit must be breathed in order for something to live.

    So how could this AI invisage real space from cyberspace where it lives. How could it know what a tree was. Well maybe if humans programmed trees (an image) in cyberspace, then it could know. But how could the AI know that it lived entirely in a man-made created world that is made up of computers, satelite connections and computer languages. It sees only what it was programmed to see, but cannot see the makeup of what hold it's world together. But if that AI were given a body when the program expired and was taken up into our dimension to be able to actually walk and interact, it could then see our realm for itself.

    To a degree this will happen to us and it may be possible that all our questions will be answered then. But I would also say to you to never underestimate what you can know now, by revelation of the Spirit of God.

    #4597
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi David999,
    Heb6.1″ Therefore leaving the elementary teachings about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of
    Repentance from dead works
    And of faith towards God,
    Of instruction about washings
    And laying on of hands
    And the resurrection of the dead
    and eternal judgement.”

    These are the basics of our faith. Denominations and their doctrines do not stick to these basics but wander away into their own imaginations and they oppress people with threats and warnings.

    But they are only able to do that because people have not got rid of that part of their makeup that makes them vulnerable. Guilt. If we all repented and got baptised we would experience the freedom that God's forgiveness brings. A freedom from the weight of guilt and condemnation and we would be like calves freed from the stall, happy, free and thriving in the love of God and no longer susceptible to manipulation by guilt that men use to trap and enslave us.

    #4749
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    To those who question that Jesus lived with the Father in heaven prior to his human birth. How can you interpret
    John 6 46
    ” Not that anyone has SEEN the Father -ONLY THE ONE WHO IS FROM GOD HAS SEEN THE FATHER”

    No man has seen God
    Jesus is from God
    Jesus has seen God

    #4754
    Ramblinrose
    Participant

    John 6:46
    “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen  the Father.

    Greek Lexicon  
    1) to see with the eyes
    2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
    3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
    4) to see, to look to
    4a) to take heed, beware
    4b) to care for, pay heed to
    5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

    #4758
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Thank you Ramblinrose,
    Welcome back. Yes I am aware of those meanings and Jesus used the perception meaning in Jn 3.3
    “I solemnly assure you, no one can SEE the reign of God unless he is begotten from above”

    Ok so you say it means Jesus “understood” or “knew” the Father? But when it is with “come from God ” it seems an unlikely mixture of meanings?

    #4761
    Ramblinrose
    Participant

    John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father save he which is of God , he hath seen the Father.

    GREEK LEXICON
    2316 yeov theos theh’-os

    1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    2) the Godhead, trinity
    2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
    2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
    2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
    3) spoken of the only and true God
    3a) refers to the things of God
    3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    4a) God’s representative or viceregent
    4a1) of magistrates and judges

    Not that any man hath perceived the Father save he which is God's representative, he hath perceived the Father.

    #4763
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes RR,
    It may mean that but I am not convinced that it does.Thanks for the trouble.

    #4824
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi,

    I have been very busy lately and haven't been able to give much attention to the latest discussions. But just some thoughts that have been in my mind lately regarding the Logos.

    It appears that most who discuss here in this discussion believe that God is one, namely the Father, YHWH, etc.
    Most here also believe that the Logos is of God and we seem to believe that Jesus Christ (Yehshua, Yashua, Yahshua …) is the messiah of God.

    Where we differ is with the Logos. Some say that the Logos was literally with God in the beginning and God created all things through him and for him (literally). Then he partook of flesh to become a man in order to redeem men back to his God and our God, namely YHWH.

    Others say that God was alone and then he created all things with his son in mind. He alone created all things and not through anybody. He created angels, the heavens and man. Lastly he created Yahshua, (Jesus).

    So the difference lies in what or who the Logos is.

    Now the second group mentioned above are aware that there are many verses that say in plain English that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. That God made all things through him and for him and that Jesus said that he existed before Abraham and claimed to be the root of David. But they explain all that away by saying that the scriptures were heavily influenced by Greek thinking and the Hebrew way of thinking was kind of snuffed out for most Christians. They take all the so-called pre-existent scriptures and say that they are not literal but fit into a future that was often spoken of in a literal way by the Hebrews.

    My first point that I would like to make is that if the Hebrew way of thinking is the measuring stick, then why did God ignore them for a time and look to the Gentiles. If they were so right in their thinking, then why didn't they recognise that Jesus/Yahshua was the promised messiah? Why did they reject the messiah at the time of their visitation, if their thinking was truth?

    Could it be possible that to take the attitiude that Hebrew thinking is always right and Greek thinking wrong, that it may lead one down the same path and fate as many Jews?

    Moving on I would like to say that both groups believe that God is one. So there appears to be no commandment broken here. But I do wonder about the following 2 verses:

    1 John 4:2
    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    2 John 1:7
    Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    Now I use to read this verse when I was younger and wonder at why such a verse needed to be in the NT. I mean all you would need to say was that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and you would be of God. So Adolph Hitler could have said this and he would be of God. It just seemed to be stupid to my way of seeing things. But now I think I understand just why John wrote this down at least twice. First of all it is not just about saying it as I am sure that we are all aware we say what we beleive. So we must believe it. But I also see it now as a great way to measure a doctrine to see whether it is of the truth or not. It seems that many false doctrines are easily discerned when we apply this acid test.

    So how does this test fit with the discussion of the Logos. Well some here say that the Logos (not Christ) became flesh (Christ) and so it is believed by them that he didn't pre-exist as a person. Others like myself and Nick, say that the Logos was the pre-existent Christ before he partook of the flesh and became the Christ. That the Logos is the expression of God that came from him and was found to be with him in teh beginning. In otherwords he was begotten of God before creation and then God created all things through him and for him. Therefore the words “Let us make man in our image” fit well.

    So how do both stances stack up against John's teaching, that we must:

  • acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh if we are of God.
  • consider that any spirit that says that Jesus didn't partake of the flesh is not of God.

    My point is that both myself and Nick believe that Jesus Christ partook of the flesh. That he being divine in nature took on the nature of man and dwelt among the disciples. But I cannot see how believing that Jesus was first created as a man, that the logos/word/plan that became flesh (supposedly Jesus); partook of the flesh? How can one partake of the flesh if they are the flesh? Perhaps the flesh partook of flesh?This theory that Jesus was created as a man with no pre-existence seems to me to say that Jesus Christ is the flesh as apposed to coming or partaking of the flesh.

    This is the same disagreement that I had with those of the Oneness theology. I argued with them that they deny that Jesus actually has an identity as he is to them the flesh and God union. i.e. that he is the part of God the Father clothed in the flesh. But I somne here are saying the same thing, except that they do not believe as those of teh Oneness persuation do that Jesus is the Father in flesh.

    So how does RR and Adam Pastor see Christ. Is he the flesh itself? Is he a soul? Is he a Spirit? Perhaps you can clear this up for me? I presently cannot comprehend how you recognise Christ as a person outside of the flesh and cannot see how you escape what John wrote in 1 John 4:2.

#4825
NickHassan
Participant

Hi t8,
I can see some having a problem with those verses in 1 John. Particularly with the little word IN.

Both verses say Jesus came IN the flesh. It does not say AS the flesh or AS flesh but IN the flesh.

To come IN is to say that you EXIST and enter a vessel. If I say I came IN a boat it makes sense but I could not say I came AS a boat.

But if you have accepted a doctrine that flesh and soul are ONE then it is impossible to come IN the flesh because you ARE the flesh. It also makes it impossible to pre-exist as if soul and body are one only as the living being then neither soul or body can have life prior to the creation of that being.
Neither could you accept that Jesus was SENT by the Father as something that cannot pre-exist cannot be SENT. But the NT is full of references about Jesus being SENT.

It all goes back to a false rendering of Genesis 2.7

Man was formed from clay. Man was created as BODY. Man existed as BODY only without life. God blew INTO his nostrils the breath of life. The breath of God entered the vessel of the BODY. The breath of life did not create the man as he was already created. The breath of life did not BECOME the man but gave life to the man who already was created but did not have life.
The breath of God gave soul and spirit to man. When the breath of God leaves the man his body dies but his soul sleeps till the resurrection.The breath of God does not die. Man does not need to be recreated to be resurrected but the new BODY is put over the old natural body and the undying breath of God for natural man.
The new created man in Jesus [2 cor 5.17] has a new Spirit as he has died with Christ. He still has soul [heart, mind and personality]which has been renovated by the internal work of the Spirit and because of the Spirit he is revived in the first resurrection.
Prejudice against Greek influence can close your mind to truth as can any other form of prejudice.

#4826
WhatIsTrue
Participant

T8,

I have not done much study in this area, (i.e.  the nature of the body, soul, and spirit, and its relation to the concept of the Logos), but having read through some of the discussions I do have some logical observations and questions.

Quote
My first point that I would like to make is that if the Hebrew way of thinking is the measuring stick, then why did God ignore them for a time and look to the Gentiles. If they were so right in their thinking, then why didn't they recognise that Jesus/Yahshua was the promised messiah? Why did they reject the messiah at the time of their visitation, if their thinking was truth?

Could it be possible that to take the attitiude that Hebrew thinking is always right and Greek thinking wrong, that it may lead one down the same path and fate as many Jews?

Such excellent questions deserve some counter-questioning that may shed light:

If Greek thinking was key in discerning the nature and the arrival of the Messiah, why did God withhold such wisdom from His chosen people in their most sacred writings?  Why does the OT issue such strong injunctions against having anything to do with the culture of foreign peoples?  Was God purposely trying to hide the crucial mystery of the Messiah's nature in Greek culture so that the Jews would not to “get it”?

Moreover, wasn't it Greek thinking that turned the one God of the Hebrews into a god of three?  Wasn't it Greek thinking, in the form of gnosticism, that even Paul and the other apostles had to combat during their ministry, even in the very pages of the NT itself?

Speaking of which…

Quote
Moving on I would like to say that both groups believe that God is one. So there appears to be no commandment broken here. But I do wonder about the following 2 verses:

1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Now I use to read this verse when I was younger and wonder at why such a verse needed to be in the NT. I mean all you would need to say was that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and you would be of God. So Adolph Hitler could have said this and he would be of God. It just seemed to be stupid to my way of seeing things. But now I think I understand just why John wrote this down at least twice. First of all it is not just about saying it as I am sure that we are all aware we say what we beleive. So we must believe it. But I also see it now as a great way to measure a doctrine to see whether it is of the truth or not. It seems that many false doctrines are easily discerned when we apply this acid test.

Note what the two verses do NOT say.  They do not say that the Word, (or the Logos, if you wish to use the Greek) came in the flesh, but that Yeshua the Messiah came in the flesh.  This is important because this is presumably the same writer who penned the John 1 passage that the entire Logos as a seperate being doctrine is built upon.  Here, he has two great opportunities to reiterate that theme, and at the same time, declare it a foundational doctrine.  Yet he simply says that Yeshua came in the flesh, not the Word.

Now this would still be a little confusing, if you are unaware of the doctrinal battle that was going on at the time.  Even in the days of the apostles, Gnostics were hijacking the gospel and giving it a pagan interpretation.  Specifically, they believed that all physical material, including the human body, was evil, and that the only way to escape that evil was through spiritual knowledge.  In any case, they preached that the Messiah had come, but that he was not and could never have been a man, because he would have defiled himself by existing in a physical body.  Instead, they said that he only appeared to be a physical person, but was actually a spirit all along, much like an angel.  The two verses above are intended to rebuke such thinking by declaring in plain language that Yeshua the Messiah was in fact a real man, a fleshly being – the annointed man of God.

Nick,

As I was posting, your post came up, so I will adress your thoughts quickly since I am out of time.

Quote
Man was formed from clay. Man was created as BODY. Man existed as BODY only without life. God blew INTO his nostrils the breath of life. The breath of God entered the vessel of the BODY. The breath of life did not create the man as he was already created. The breath of life did not BECOME the man but gave life to the man who already was created but did not have life.
The breath of God gave soul and spirit to man. When the breath of God leaves the man his body dies but his soul sleeps till the resurrection.The breath of God does not die. Man does not need to be recreated to be resurrected but the new BODY is put over the old natural body and the undying breath of God for natural man.

According to what you have written above the following formula is true:

Man = Body

What then is soul and spirit?  Our divine essence?

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