@Lightenup,

What is this being, according to your understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures?

There’s your misunderstanding, wisdom is not a “being”; wisdom is a characteristic. Wisdom is a gift from G-d given to mankind before G-d created everything, as Solomon writes. Wisdom in this chapter is personified and given man like qualities; does this…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Thanks for asking. Here’s the follow‑up question I’m trying to get to:

If Proverbs 8 describes a being who comes forth from God, is with God before creation, stands beside God, and participates in creation as a craftsman, then how do you interpret that figure within the Tanakh?

In other words: what is this being, according to your…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Please explain the point you’re trying to make concerning Proverbs 8. Make a statement or ask the question.

@DesireTruth
I hear what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to analyze you or your journey. I’m only trying to stay focused on this specific textual question to establish a foundation from which to build on.

You said the answer to all three creation questions is “no,” so let me stay with that one point. My goal isn’t to defend church tradition o…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Please don’t try to psychoanalyze me…it won’t end well 🙂

The “crux” has nothing to do with creation (although what I understand today is opposite of chrisitanity); the “crux” is the christian church lied to me for 40 years and I have only recently come to realize it. My journey started with asking my pastor questions to the poin…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I want to start by acknowledging something important about your story. You’ve shared that you spent forty years in Christian churches, raising sincere questions about the relationship between the Tanakh and the New Testament — and that your pastor and fellow churchgoers didn’t give you meaningful answers. I can understand how disco…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Your second set of “if you can’t prove the opposite, your wrong and I’m right” childish arguments.

Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?

II Sam 7:12 and I Chron 28:7 are the two passages I already gave you; unless you don’t understand the “birds and the bees.” Every person up to Solomon was c…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Your response is bewildering! You can’t support what you believe so you’re going to use reverse arguments to support it; because to doesn’t say it’s not there, it is?!??? A pastor tried this on me once; we’re adults, not grade-schoolers on a playground. Either you can support what you believe or you can’t; if you can’t, why do you…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that the Messiah must be biologically descended from Solomon, and that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son. But you have not shown where the Tanakh says either of these things.

So let me ask directly:

1. Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?
2. Where does the Tanakh say God c…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son, but you have not shown where the Tanakh says this. So let me ask directly:

Where does the Tanakh say that God cannot have a Son?
Where does it say God cannot beget?
Where does it say God cannot send His Son?
Where does it say God cannot reveal Himself through His S…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

OBVIOUSLY!!!! Jecohiah had his kingship removed and the line of kings ended. Read Hosea 3:4-5 where G-d tells Israel they would be without a king until the end of days (that’s a good one for a lat…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure.

How did I know you were going to say it’s a riddle! Why do you believe it’s a riddle? What if there isn’t anything mysterious about the passage at all and it’s just Solomon using wisdom to express the power of G-d that no man possesses, no matter the level of power o…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure. Agur asks who ascends and descends from heaven, who gathers the wind, who wraps the waters, and who established the earth. These are all divine actions in the Tanakh. Then he asks: “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

The “Son” cannot be Israel or Solomon,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

The Tanakh itself shows Solomon’s line collapsed: the kingdom split, the monarchy ended, foreign powers deposed kings, Jehoiachin was cursed, and no son of Solomon ruled after the exile. If “perma…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

You didn’t answer this question:

So what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Who’s dynasty will be made permanent and who made the promise?

@Lightenup,

1. “God sent His Son” — Tanakh foundation

The Tanakh repeatedly speaks of a divine figure sent by God who is distinct from God yet shares His nature.

– Prov 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you know?”

Explain how Prov 30:4 is a reference for God sending His Son; and how the Jesus is shown to be “a divine figur…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

It’s the desire and love of God and His truth that takes me where I go, not stubbornness nor fear.

@Lightenup,

My apologizes, I said things that you weren’t privy to in the past as you weren’t apart of those conversations. Most everything you just stated I have commented on. The only personal thing I asked was is it fear or stubbornness that keeps you where you are; nothing more, nothing less. If you feel this is a personal attack, it is not…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I’m going to stay with the text and ignore the personal comments. You asked for Tanakh support for the statements I made, so here are the passages.

1. “God sent His Son” — Tanakh foundation
The Tanakh repeatedly speaks of a divine figure sent by God who is distinct from God yet shares His nature.

– Prov 30:4 — “What is His name,…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

God the Father sent His only begotten Son into the world as a bond servant, fully man while still remaining eternally divine, as the promised Messiah. Born of the seed of Abraham through Mary who married Joseph. The Messiah is sitting at the right hand of the Father who will put all His enemies under His feet.

You didn’t answer, is i…[Read more]