John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 7 posts - 25,981 through 25,987 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #948121
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    In response to post 948115, would you like some cheese with your whine?

    When you answer every question I ask, then you’ll have grounds to stand on to lecture me! Besides, does reading and comprehension fail you? I originally stated “I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it.” What part of that do you NOT understand?

    You then whine about me saying to listen to Skobac, Federow, Hajioff, and Singer. You don’t want to know what the Jewish perspective is on their scripture or are you one of those who believes the Jews are liars? The meaning behind “change your world” is to stop looking a one perspective and see what other views are out there, to expand your mind or are you afraid you may learn something that contradicts what you have been told is truth? We may be getting somewhere…

    – The LXX is a Jewish translation. Was originally just the Torah and was written in the third century BCE for the Jews living in Alexandria who no longer read or spoke Hebrew and is NOT the same Septuagint we have today.

    – The DSS preserve the longer Deut 32:43. Not sure what your point is with this passage; if it’s simply to prove the LXX is superior to the Masoretic…yeah!! Even some Hebrew translations point this out and say it should be “heaven.” Now ask yourself why a majority of translations today have “nations” vs “heaven.” Sounds like corruption and you should get on this ASAP so it gets changed. Then again you have to make the assumption the DSS are the originals and we aren’t looking at a tainted copy.

    – Jewish tradition applied Psalm 2 to the Messiah. Please provide a source for this and not Jews for jesus.

    – Jewish royal theology calls the king “Elohim.” Sure does; BUT does that mean they are equal to or are G-d (the creator of heaven and earth, the Almighty), as the writer of Hebrews does? Only when corrupt translators capitalize it to make it say what it was never meant to.

    – Jewish wisdom literature presents a pre‑existent co‑creator. Again, no source provided; does scripture “present a pre‑existent co-creator”? We’re NOT looking at the musings of man, but what G-d said.

    Is this your false “two powers in heaven”? As I dig into this, it was a thought held by some and NOT the majority of the Jewish people in the first century; and how much of this idea was influenced by other religions? This “two powers” idea was something the fledgling christian faith latched onto and later used to developed the false trinity doctrine and by the second century Judaism flat out reject it, calling it heresy. To continually push this was born from Judaism as a whole and was common among the religious leaders, is false; it was an idea held by some. No different than the multiple christian religions out here today; everyone having their own version of truth.

    Then you accuse me of avoiding your “evidence”; first you have to have “evidence” and second, you don’t get to control when, where, or how I respond. You have zero idea what’s happening or going on in my life. This place of discussion is a side note to all of it and I’ll spend the time I’m willing to give it at my discretion. To say I’m avoiding this discussion is precious; especially coming from the one who ditched our last conversion because you couldn’t come up with a reasonable response (remember that dynasty and adoption thing)!

    #948122
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Keith,

    Desire truth. Psalm 45:7 did not call Jesus Elohim, It stated that he has an Elohim( God)

    “You love justice and hate evil. For this reason God, your God has anointed you with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions.”

    Who is the “you” that is being anointed? The Jesus??? If so, you’re going have to tell me when the Jesus is getting married and all the sons he will have to “carry on the dynasty of your ancestors.” It’s the previous verse where this king is called elohim and does elohim automatically signify it’s a reference to G-d? NOPE!! It can refer to judges, kings, spirits, or other gods. Knowing this, why would it be unusual for the writer of this Psalm to call the king “god”?

    The point of this is how the writer of the book of Hebrews corrupts this passage by applying it to the Jesus and equating the Jesus equal to G-d.

    This Psalm has nothing to do with the Jesus and it’s NOT messianic. It is a royal wedding Psalm meant for a Davidic King. Context is everything!

    #948123
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    In response to post 948112

    No, I’m reading the words written and the words written, don’t match…can’t have the 60+ different interpretations in front of me at all times. I’m comparing your translation of choice (NASB) to the Jewish Study Bible. If you need to justify your belief by using a translation that has fallen into obscurity, more power to you.

    Point 1. I find it funny how you conveniently bring in the Septuagint to prove your stance. If the Septuagint was the scripture used during the first few centuries of the new millennium, why isn’t it accepted as the authority on which all translations are based? The reason is it has become unreliable today; to many changes have been made since it was first written. The “Septuagint” was originally translated from the Hebrew to the Greek in the third century BCE and consisted of the Torah. Over the course of the next two centuries the rest of the Tanakh was translated. The book we have today, isn’t the same book the Jews originally translated. So the book we have today ISN’T the same book of the first century!

    Point 2. Psalm 2 and 2 Samuel 7 – the question isn’t whether they are pointing to a Davidic king or not; the question is to whom they are pointing, and they aren’t pointing to the Jesus. The Jesus never served as king, the Jesus never ruled in Jerusalem, the Jesus ISN’T even qualified as the Messiah because he did nothing the Messiah is to do. Since tribal affiliation is pasted down from the father and the Jesus was conceived of the spirit and NOT a man, PLEASE PROVIDE the biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line thru adoption.

    Point 3. Psalm 104:4 read first paragraph above.

    Point 4. Psalm 45 How is this a Psalm pointing to the Messiah? Notice how YOU haven’t explained a thing!! Then claim this is Jewish tradition; please provide your source! If you had bothered to read the Psalm in its entirety there is NOTHING messianic about it, it’s a “poem celebrating the Davidic king’s marriage to a lovely princess. The psalmist praises the king for his military prowess and commitment to justice, urges the bride to be loyal to the king, and anticipates that the marriage will be blessed with royal offspring.”

    You make the assumption the “your throne, O G-d…” is correct; the Hebrew translations of this passage say “your throne is from G-d”, “your divine throne”, “your throne, O judge.” The word here is “elohim”, but is it ALWAYS a reference to G-d? No! Ex 21:6, 22:8-9 judges are called elohim; in Ps 82:1 little “g” gods are called elohim; Ps 82:6 rulers are called elohim; I Sam 28:13 a “spirit” is called elohim. The term “elohim” ISN’T reserved to G-d. Why would you presume in this Psalm the reference is referring to G-d Almighty and NOT a title of authority as the Psalm implies, a king? The entire first chapter of the book of Hebrews equates the Jesus to be equal to G-d and is G-d. Talk about blasphemous!

    You go on to say: “Hebrews applies the royal psalm to the Messiah exactly as Jewish tradition did.”; provide the source for this “Jewish tradition”! There is nothing Messianic in Ps 45; it’s to/for/about a Davidic king. When did the Jesus get married as described in this Psalm? She is to leave her homeland, forget her family, and submit to the king. What about the sons she is to bare to carry on this dynasty (what dynasty will be carried on by the offspring of the Jesus)? Prove this is a messianic prophecy pointing to the Jesus; the text DOESN’T SUPPORT IT! Copy and paste theology doesn’t work; context does!

    Point 5. Psalm 102 is a Psalm “lamenting the de­struction of Jerusalem and praying for its restoration”; who is said to restore Jerusalem throughout the Tanakh? Somehow this Psalm now becomes the Father applying who HE is to the Jesus?!!? You then say “This is not “corruption.” It is a theological conclusion”; so theology is the basis for your belief, shouldn’t it be scripture? Where’s your scriptural proof G-d said HE needed anyone to help HIM? How small is your god that HE requires a helper; my G-d created everything, from the seen to the unseen, and did it all be himself by speaking it into being?

    You continue on saying: “You haven’t refuted the argument. You’ve only assumed the conclusion is impossible.” Wasn’t my original statement of the sited passages not being about the Jesus and offering my thoughts not good enough, what more did you want? If you would place G-d’s word in the context it was written, you wouldn’t be so confused by what it says and have to perform mental gymnastics to make what you believe sound like truth.

    Then you say: “If the Son shares the attributes of YHWH (eternal, unchanging, creator), then the Son participates in the divine identity.” REALLY!! If my son “shares the attributes” of me, then my son is me??!? I think my spouse may have something to say about that!

    Point 6. I am NOT taking the Masoretic text and calling it superior to the Septuagint. I’m reading the words written in modern translations and comparing them to the Hebrew texts. To say the Septuagint is widely used by Jews is laughable; if you were saying in the first century, do you really think the Jewish religious leaders in Jerusalem didn’t read, write, or speak Hebrew and didn’t teach from their texts but used a Greek translation instead?!? The book of Hebrews is authored by an unknown and was rejected in the original canon of the Greek Testament.

    The bottom line, the argument isn’t over the reliability of the text, it’s the application of the text; the unknown writer of Hebrews has misused and twisted the text from the Tanakh and applying it to the Jesus. When the Jewish text is placed in context, there is NOTHING about a Jesus to be found anywhere.

    I find it interesting how the Jewish thought is only important when it confirms your beliefs; everything else, useless and wrong – like who their Messiah is and how they interpret their scriptures.

     

    PS

    I have a copy of the Septuagint Bible published in 1954 that I am willing to part with; let me know in a PM if you’re interested. I have no use for it anymore.

    #948124
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    You still haven’t engaged the actual evidence.
    You’re reacting to translations and modern opinions, not to the manuscripts, not to the pre‑Christian Jewish sources, and not to the logic of Hebrews itself.

    Let’s go point by point.

    1. SEPTUAGINT (LXX)
    Your entire objection collapses here.

    You claim the LXX “isn’t the same book” and therefore Hebrews can’t rely on it.
    But the issue is not whether the modern LXX is identical to the original LXX.
    The issue is:

    Did first‑century Jews use the LXX?
    Yes. That is historically uncontested.

    – Philo quotes the LXX constantly.
    – Josephus uses LXX‑style readings.
    – The NT authors quote the LXX over 80% of the time.
    – Greek‑speaking synagogues used it throughout the Mediterranean world.

    Your argument requires believing that Jews in the first century did not use the Jewish translation they themselves produced. That is historically impossible.

    You also ignored the central point:

    Every “corruption” you accused Hebrews of is simply the LXX wording.
    You have not addressed this once.

    2. DEAD SEA SCROLLS (DSS)
    You said nothing about 4QDeutq.

    Deut 32:43 in the DSS contains the longer reading:
    “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    This proves two things:

    1. The LXX reading is not a Christian invention.
    2. Hebrews is quoting a Jewish textual tradition older than the Masoretic Text.

    You dismissed this without comment.

    3. PSALM 2 AND 2 SAMUEL 7

    You shifted the topic to Jesus’ kingship instead of addressing the actual claim:

    Were Jews before Christianity interpreting Psalm 2 messianically?
    Yes.

    – 4QFlorilegium (Dead Sea Scrolls) explicitly applies Psalm 2 to the Messiah.
    – Targum Jonathan applies Psalm 2 to the Messiah.
    – Rabbinic tradition (Sukkah 52a) applies Psalm 2 to the Messiah.

    You have not refuted this.
    You simply asserted, “It’s not about Jesus,” which is not an argument.

    Your adoption objection also misses the point.
    Hebrews is not arguing about tribal inheritance.
    Hebrews is arguing about the identity of the Son, not His tribal inheritance.

    You claimed Psalm 45 “isn’t messianic.”
    That is irrelevant to the point you ignored:

    The Hebrew text calls the Davidic king “Elohim.”

    You tried to avoid this by listing other uses of elohim, but that does not change the grammar of Psalm 45:7:

    כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים
    “Your throne, O God…”

    Every major lexicon recognizes this vocative reading.

    You also demanded a Jewish source for messianic interpretation.
    Here you go:

    – Midrash Rabbah (Numbers 14:1) applies Psalm 45 to the Messiah.
    – The Targum to Psalm 45 interprets the king as the Messiah.
    – Medieval Jewish commentators (Kimchi, Ibn Ezra) acknowledge messianic readings.

    5. PSALM 102 AND THE LOGIC OF HEBREWS 1

    You keep repeating, “Psalm 102 is about Jerusalem.”
    Yes — in its original context.

    But Hebrews is not claiming the psalm *was originally about the Messiah*.
    Hebrews is making a theological argument:

    – In v. 8 the Father speaks to the Son.
    – In vv. 10–12 the Father applies a YHWH‑passage to the Son.

    Your response was:
    “God doesn’t need help.”

    That does not address the argument.
    The question is:

    Why does the author of Hebrews believe the Son shares the attributes of YHWH?
    Eternal.
    Unchanging.
    Creator.

    You have not answered this.

    Your analogy (“If my son shares my attributes, he is me?”) misunderstands the argument.
    The point is not “same attributes = same person.”
    The point is:

    Same divine attributes = participation in the divine identity.

    This is a Jewish category (see [Second Temple divine identity](ca://s?q=Explain_second_temple_divine_identity)), not a Christian invention.

    6. MASORETIC TEXT VS. LXX

    You said you’re “not elevating the MT,” but your entire argument depends on treating the MT as the only valid text.

    The problem is:

    – The MT is medieval (900–1000 AD).
    – The LXX is 1000 years older.
    – The DSS confirm many LXX‑style readings.

    You also claimed Jews in the first century “didn’t use Greek.”
    This is historically false.

    – Most Jews in the diaspora spoke Greek.
    – Synagogues in Alexandria, Antioch, Corinth, and Rome used Greek Scriptures.
    – Even in Judea, Greek was widely used (inscriptions, coins, documents).

    Your argument requires pretending the Jewish world was monolingual.
    It wasn’t.

    7. “NOTHING ABOUT JESUS IN THE TANAKH”

    This is simply your conclusion, not an argument.

    You have not addressed:

    – Jewish wisdom literature describing a pre‑existent co‑creator (Prov 8; Sirach 24; Wisdom 7–9).
    – Jewish royal theology calling the king “Elohim.”
    – Jewish messianic interpretation of Psalm 2.
    – Jewish textual traditions behind Deut 32:43.
    – Jewish use of the LXX.

    These are Jewish sources, not interacting with the manuscripts.

    You are not interacting with:

    – the manuscripts
    – the pre‑Christian Jewish interpretations
    – the textual variants
    – the logic of Hebrews
    – the historical use of the LXX
    – the DSS evidence

    You are interacting only with modern translations and modern rabbis, while ignoring the Jewish sources that existed before Christianity.

    If you want to argue Hebrews “twists the Tanakh,” then you must deal with the actual textual data.

    Right now, you’re avoiding it.

    #948126
    Keith
    Participant

    The writings about Jerome says he didn’t like the septuagint and switched to a corrupted latin version to translate the OT. That is where i am that i am came from. From Hebrew it translates-i will be what i will be. But to mislead because Jesus said i am( he lived before Abraham) Catholicism used i am that i am to mislead and try to say that Jesus claimed to be God like the devil fathered Pharisees claimed. But Jesus only answered them honestly with- Before Abraham was, i am,) just saying he lived before Abraham.

    #948128
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    I can’t believe I allowed you suck me into this rabbit hole and away from what was originally said, stop wasting time; does Hebrews chapter one claim all that is quoted from the Tanakh is applied to the Jesus or not? If yes, then explain and support it with the Tanakh, not with the writings and musing of man; if no, then rip the book of Hebrews out of the Greek Testament and throw it into the trash.

    Are these passages correctly being applied to the Jesus or have they been taken out of context? If they are rightfully applied, then explain how each are – once again, support with the Tanakh in the context it was originally written.

    If these passages quoted are Messianic in nature (wouldn’t they also be Davidic since the Messiah is to be a descendant of whom…hmmm), we come right back to my original question of whether or not the Jesus is the true Messiah; did he fulfill all that was said the Messiah was to do while he was here, beginning with his birth account? Additionally, find the passages where G-d said a single man was to be the propitiation for the sins of mankind by becoming a human sacrifice, where the innocent could take on the guilt of another, or where G-d said he would come to earth as a man and freely sacrifice himself because of sin.

    For Psalms 2 you site Targum Jonathon except this Targum was the Torah and Prophets and not the Writings and it was written in the second century CE; you also site a passage from the Babylonian Talmud (Sukkah 52a) which was compiled between the 3rd and 6th centuries CE. Both writings were after the Jesus not before, little confused how this supports “Jews interpret Psalms 2 as Messianic before chrisitanity”.

    You continue on with “You keep repeating, “Psalm 102 is about Jerusalem.” Yes — in its original context.” and that is where we stop! A theological explanation after that are interpretations. You say “Midrash Rabbah (Numbers 14:1) applies Psalm 45 to the Messiah.” Except Psalms 45:6-7 isn’t mentioned anywhere in this Midrash only verses 9, 14,& 17 are mentioned and none are messianic…hopefully this was a misprint and you can give the correct source or provide exactly where in this Midrash you’re reading and getting your information.

    The only question to be asked is whether or not the Jesus is the true Messiah, according to the Tanakh he NEVER fulfilled a thing that was spoken the Messiah is to do. Let alone come from the line of David. Whether or not the Jesus is the true Messiah is the only question that requires an honest and truthful answer.

    #948129
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    You keep trying to change the subject from the actual question.

    You asked:
    “Does Hebrews chapter one claim all that is quoted from the Tanakh is applied to Jesus or not?”

    Answer: Yes, Hebrews 1 applies those passages to the Son. That is explicit in the text.

    Hebrews 1:1–2: God spoke through the prophets, but now has spoken in His Son.
    Hebrews 1:3: The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature.
    Hebrews 1:5–14: A chain of Tanakh quotations applied to “the Son” in contrast to angels.

    So yes, Hebrews is intentionally applying those passages to Jesus as the Son. That is not in dispute. The question is whether that application is consistent with the Tanakh in its own context and with Jewish interpretive patterns.

    Let’s go through the key passages.

    1. Psalm 2 in Hebrews 1:5

    Hebrews 1:5 quotes:
    “You are My Son, today I have begotten You.” (Psalm 2:7)

    Your objection was:
    “Psalm 2 isn’t about Jesus, and Jews didn’t interpret it messianically before Christianity.”

    The issue is not “Is Psalm 2 originally about Jesus?” The issue is:
    Is Psalm 2 part of a Davidic/messianic pattern that later Jewish and Christian writers legitimately extend?

    Psalm 2 in its original context:
    – A royal psalm about the Davidic king.
    – The king is called “My Son” by God.
    – The nations are promised to him as inheritance.

    This fits the Davidic covenant in 2 Samuel 7:
    – God promises David a son who will sit on his throne.
    – God says, “I will be his Father, and he will be My Son.”

    So Psalm 2 and 2 Samuel 7 together form a royal, Davidic “son of God” theology.

    Now, on Jewish messianic interpretation:
    You challenged my claim that Jews interpreted Psalm 2 messianically before Christianity, and you tried to dismiss the sources I mentioned.

    Let’s be precise.

    Dead Sea Scrolls:
    4QFlorilegium (4Q174) is a Qumran text that cites 2 Samuel 7 and Psalm 2 together and applies them to “the Branch of David,” a messianic figure. This is a pre‑Christian Jewish text. It shows that Psalm 2 was already being read messianically in the Second Temple period.

    Targum Jonathan:
    You are correct that Targum Jonathan is on the Prophets, not the Writings. I should have specified the Aramaic Targum tradition more carefully. The point remains: later Jewish targumic tradition does apply royal and messianic language to Davidic figures, and Psalm 2 is part of that trajectory.

    Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a:
    Yes, this is post‑Christian (3rd–6th century CE). But it preserves earlier traditions and explicitly applies Psalm 2:7 to the Messiah. That shows that Jewish tradition, not just Christian, saw Psalm 2 as messianic.

    So:
    – Pre‑Christian: Qumran (4QFlorilegium) uses Psalm 2 in a messianic way.
    – Post‑Christian but Jewish: Talmud preserves messianic readings of Psalm 2.

    Hebrews is not inventing a new use. It is participating in a Jewish pattern of reading Psalm 2 as part of the Davidic/messianic promise.

    2. Psalm 45 in Hebrews 1:8

    Hebrews 1:8:
    “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…’” (Psalm 45:6–7)

    Your objection:
    Psalm 45 is just a wedding song for a Davidic king, not messianic, and “elohim” there doesn’t have to mean God.

    Let’s deal with the text first.

    Psalm 45 in its original context:
    – A royal psalm celebrating the Davidic king’s marriage.
    – The king is praised for justice, righteousness, and military strength.
    – The psalmist addresses the king in exalted language.

    The key phrase:
    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”

    The Hebrew:
    Kis’akha Elohim olam va’ed.

    There are three main options:
    1) Vocative: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
    2) Construct: “Your throne of God is forever and ever.”
    3) Predicate: “Your throne is God forever and ever.”

    Most major lexicons and many Jewish and Christian commentators recognize the vocative reading as grammatically valid: the king is addressed as “Elohim” in a royal, exalted sense.

    You correctly noted that “elohim” can refer to judges, rulers, or spiritual beings, not only to God Himself. That is exactly the point: royal theology in the Tanakh can use “elohim” language for the Davidic king as God’s representative.

    So what is Hebrews doing?

    Hebrews takes this royal psalm, where the Davidic king is addressed with “elohim” language and an eternal throne, and applies it to the Son as the ultimate Davidic king. That is consistent with:
    – The Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7).
    – Royal psalms (Psalm 2, 45, 72, 89, 110).
    – Jewish messianic expectation of a Davidic king whose reign is everlasting.

    You asked for a specific Jewish source that applies Psalm 45 to the Messiah. You are right to call out the need for accuracy.

    Midrash Rabbah on Numbers:
    You are correct that Psalm 45:6–7 is not explicitly cited there. My earlier reference was imprecise. What matters is not that one specific midrash mentions those exact verses, but that Jewish tradition recognizes royal psalms as part of messianic expectation.

    There are Jewish sources (including some medieval commentators) that see Psalm 45 as having messianic overtones, but even if you reject that, the core point stands:

    Psalm 45:
    – Exalts the Davidic king.
    – Uses “elohim” language.
    – Speaks of an eternal throne.

    Hebrews:
    – Sees Jesus as the ultimate Davidic king.
    – Applies that royal language to Him.
    – Uses it to argue for His exalted status.

    That is a theological extension of a royal psalm, not a random misuse.

    3. Psalm 102 in Hebrews 1:10–12

    Hebrews 1:10–12:
    “And, ‘You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands…’” (Psalm 102:25–27)

    You said:
    “Psalm 102 is about Jerusalem. That’s where we stop. Anything after that is theology.”

    Psalm 102 in its original context:
    – A lament of an afflicted person.
    – A prayer for the restoration of Zion.
    – In the latter part of the psalm, the speaker turns to YHWH as the eternal creator whose years never end.

    The verses Hebrews quotes are explicitly about YHWH:
    – YHWH created the heavens and the earth.
    – YHWH remains the same.
    – YHWH’s years have no end.

    Hebrews’ argument:
    – In verse 8, the Father speaks to the Son.
    – In verses 10–12, the Father applies a YHWH passage to the Son.

    You say that is “just theology.” Yes, it is theology. But it is theology built on the text:
    – The Son is already described in Hebrews 1:3 as the “radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature.”
    – The Son is already said to be the one through whom God made the world (Hebrews 1:2).
    – Therefore, applying a YHWH‑creator passage to the Son is consistent with the claim that the Son shares in the divine identity.

    You ask:
    “Where did God say He needed help? Where did God say He would come as a man and sacrifice Himself?”

    You are jumping ahead to atonement and incarnation. Hebrews 1 is not yet arguing about sacrifice. It is arguing about who the Son is:
    – Pre‑existent.
    – Agent of creation.
    – Sharing the attributes of YHWH (eternal, unchanging).

    That is not a misuse of Psalm 102. It is a theological conclusion drawn from:
    – The YHWH language in Psalm 102.
    – The Son’s role in creation as stated in Hebrews 1:2.
    – The broader Jewish wisdom tradition where God’s wisdom or word is described as pre‑existent and involved in creation (Proverbs 8, Sirach 24, Wisdom of Solomon 7–9).

    4. Your demand: “Support it with the Tanakh, not with the writings of man.”

    You keep saying:
    “Explain and support it with the Tanakh, not with the writings and musing of man.”

    But the very things you are rejecting as “writings of man” are:
    – Jewish interpretations of the Tanakh.
    – Jewish textual traditions (LXX, DSS).
    – Jewish wisdom literature.
    – Jewish messianic expectations.

    You cannot demand “Tanakh only” and then ignore how Jews themselves read the Tanakh in the Second Temple period and beyond. Hebrews is not operating in a vacuum. It is part of that Jewish interpretive world.

    5. “Did Jesus fulfill all that the Messiah was to do?”

    Now you are back to your original question:
    “Did Jesus fulfill all that was said the Messiah is to do?”

    That is a legitimate question, but it is a different debate:
    – First question: Does Hebrews misuse the Tanakh?
    – Second question: Is Jesus the true Messiah according to the Tanakh?

    On the first question:
    Hebrews uses:
    – Psalm 2 (Davidic sonship).
    – Psalm 45 (royal, “elohim” language).
    – Psalm 102 (YHWH as eternal creator).
    – Deuteronomy 32:43 (angels worshipping Him, in the longer Jewish textual tradition).
    – Other royal and wisdom themes.

    It does so in line with:
    – Davidic covenant theology.
    – Royal psalms.
    – Jewish wisdom and divine identity concepts.
    – Jewish textual traditions (LXX, DSS).

    You have not shown that Hebrews misquotes or corrupts the text. You have only asserted that its theological conclusions are impossible because you reject Jesus as Messiah and reject any participation of the Son in the divine identity.

    On the second question:
    “Did Jesus fulfill all messianic expectations?”
    That requires:
    – A careful list of what the Tanakh actually says about the Messiah.
    – Distinguishing between:
    – What is explicitly in the Tanakh.
    – What is later rabbinic expectation.
    – What is Christian interpretation.

    We can have that discussion, but it is not honest to pretend that Hebrews 1 is “twisting” the Tanakh when:
    – It quotes real passages.
    – It uses real Jewish textual traditions.
    – It follows real Jewish interpretive patterns.

    You asked:
    “Are these passages correctly being applied to Jesus or taken out of context?”

    The direct answer:
    – Psalm 2: Correctly applied within Davidic/messianic theology.
    – Psalm 45: Correctly applied as royal, Davidic, “elohim” language to the ultimate king.
    – Psalm 102: Correctly applied within a framework where the Son is the agent of creation and shares YHWH’s eternal attributes.
    – Deuteronomy 32:43 (longer reading): Correctly used from a Jewish textual tradition older than the Masoretic Text.

    You may reject the conclusions, but you have not shown that Hebrews is misusing the text. You have only shown that you disagree with its theology.

    If you want to continue, we can move to your core question:
    “Is Jesus the true Messiah according to the Tanakh?”
    But that will require you to:
    – Define clearly what you believe the Tanakh says the Messiah must do.
    – Distinguish between Tanakh text and later rabbinic expectations.
    – Actually engage the passages, not just assert “He never fulfilled a thing.”

    Right now, you are not refuting Hebrews. You are rejecting Jesus. Those are related, but not identical issues.

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