John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,921 through 19,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #862219
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    I am going to answer your question as to the topic of Jesus being flesh and bone by starting a new thread.

    #862220
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Luke 3:23 King James Bible
    And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…

    The passage is telling you that Jesus IS the son of Joseph, and it is telling you that the people thought he was the son of Joseph.  That which the people thought he was he was.

    Are there other scriptures mentioning that X is the son of Y, which also include the words “as was supposed”?

    #862221
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked Berean this: “…what makes you think His first creation, Jesus, must necessarily have His nature?”

    The fact that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON implies identical in nature to the One who beget. The fact the Jesus is the ONLY begotten to an eternally existent One implies that Jesus contains the same eternal nature as his Father. From the OO theory you can see that.

    LU

    #862223
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Hi Mike,

    I am going to answer your question as to the topic of Jesus being flesh and bone by starting a new thread.

    In the meantime, could you tell me in this thread whether or not you believe Jesus was raised up in the same body in which he died… sans blood?

    I’m also waiting for your answer about John 17:5.  Did Jesus say that HE had glory alongside the Father before the world began?

    #862224
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike you asked:

    …That being said, please explain how two completely identical entities can have a different relationship with each other.

    I have been trying to do that. The OO theory explains this. In binary fission, from one cell that goes through asexual reproduction, two identical cells are the result. They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.

    #862225
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    The fact that we don’t read any other lineage that says “as was thought” in it, doesn’t change what you are being told. But I believe there is reason why in Jesus’s specific case those words are there. Did everyone know during the time Jesus was sent out to preach and perform miracles that he was born of a virgin? If they heard it, did everyone believe it? I doubt it. I believe it is because of this very reason “as was thought” were given by Luke. People assumed he was Joseph’s son, of which Luke tells us that he was. 

    I don’t believe it is wise to change the purpose God specifically gave for the virgin birth.

    Nor ignore the fact that the child to be born IS the son of David and that he WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest.

    Nor ignore that prophecy was that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God makes this son into His own Son.

    Nor ignore the fact that you are told that the GENESIS of Jesus is by his genealogy being of Abraham and David through Joseph.

    Nor ignore the fact that Jesus is called a human being and a son of a human being multiple times over. If Jesus was additionally of another kind, then he wouldn’t actually be a human being, he would be his own kind of being.

    Who is Jesus now? He is a firstborn of many brethren, he is a firstborn of the dead, where his resurrection is our resurrection. Where he was raised being the son of David receiving the promised Holy Spirit, and we too are raised receiving that promise, where by such we are led by God, led by His Spirit in all things. Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    #862226
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    The prophecy fulfilled was that God would not allow Jesus’s body to see decay, it would be brought back to life before decay sat in.

    Recall a few things Mike so that you can then apply them to Jesus’s words in John 17,

    According to prophecy it is a man who sheds his blood for our sins, and because this man obeys God he is promised from God to receive a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong.

    We read that Jesus being slain was according to God’s determined purpose and foreknowledge.

    According to prophecy God was going to be mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visit him, have him suffer death, then God would crown him with GLORY and HONOR, and give this human dominion over all God’s works.

    According to prophecy God was going to make David’s son into His own Son and give him his father David’s throne for all eternity.

    When time was near for the Son of Man to be taken captive and crucified, he asked God for the glory that he (the Son of Man) had OF God before the world was. 

    Jesus knew full well the prophecies concerning him and what he was promised to receive according to those prophecies after he died. In Jesus asking God for the glory that was of God unto a man, declared from the beginning, he was declaring his FAITH in God’s word, that he believed in God’s promises concerning him.  

    #862227
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

     

    In collosians 1 this the end for

    THOSE WHO WANT RESISTER THE TRUTH

     

    TWO WORDS

    dia  and  eiV

    dia>>>> by, through. ..

    eiV>>>>> for

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

     

    The TRUTH IS THAT ALL THINGS

    WERE CREATED BY(dia) JESUS CHRIST

    AND FOR(eiV) HIM

     

    I will continue with other texts later

    #862231
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..the word of God “became flesh”,  that doe not mean Jesus  an enity other then God was existing with God in the beginning. It means Gods word about a flesh man has came about, it was the flesh man Jesus.  Jesus was never GOD’S WORD, he plainly said the words he spoke to us were “not his”.   He is called the word of God because he speaks “God’s the Fathers ” , words to us. 

    I tell you Mike Jesus did “not”, even exist until he was born on this earth. All those who say so a simply false teachers and those who say he is God are false teachers “2ths2 explains exactly what fallen Christanity  has done. Read it and apply it to the “false image” of Jesus that fallen Christanity has created, this started way back at the very beginning in  the time of John and Paul. This false teachings of Jesus being a God was started by the Gnostic’s,  right at the very beginning . 

    Jesus told us clearly that the great deception would be about him,  saying, “many would come in my name say I am and, decieve many,  that has happened in all Christanity,  they are preaching a false Christ. 

    HOPE you can come to see and  understand this, I know Jodi does .

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

     

    #862232
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Clever you left out the true meaning of the word  “DIA” the word simply mean it was for the reason or purpose of.  We have many clear scriptures the say it was  God  the Father alone,  and by himself , that created everything that exists.  

    Using scriptures untruthfully and against so many others scriptures that prove you are wrong is exactly what false teachers do, you and Carmel make a good team.  I hope others aren’t buying into your false confusions.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #862236
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #862237
    carmel
    Participant

    Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

    2 Corinthians 7:1 If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed) but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ: above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter. 5For such an one I will glory: but for myself I will glory nothing but in my infirmities. 6For though I should have a mind to glory, I shall not be foolish: for I will say the truth. But I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth in me, or anything he heareth from me. 7And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me,

    there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.

    8For which thing, thrice I besought the Lord that it might depart from me. 9And he said to me:

    My grace is sufficient for thee: for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that

    the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10For which cause I please myself in my infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses,

    for Christ. For when I am weak, then am I powerful.

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.

    ME: I WISH YOU SEE THINGS FROM THE SPIRIT SIDE POINT OF VIEW WHEN YOU READ SCRIPTURE IN RELATION TO OUR ONE AND ONLY

    ONE SAVIOUR

    JESUS,  despite

    THE SON OF MAN 

    FLESH.

    SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE, PLEASURE, AND GLORY OF

    GOD THE FATHER IN THE KINGDOM OF

    HIS SON OF HIS LOVE Colossians 1:13,14 ATTENTION PLEASE:

    THOUGH PHYSICAL IT IS SPIRITUAL! 

    Pinpointed out by Jesus in

    John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me,

    I should lose nothing, ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS SPIRIT, eternal life,  the Father’s substance, Hebrews 1:3, “THE WORD” Jesus’ FLESH, though FLESH it maintained IT’S SPIRIT! manifested on mount tabor.) 

    but should raise it up again

    ON THE LAST DAY. 

    As clear as crystal JESUS “THE WORD” SPIRIT, WAS MADE FLESH, DIED IN HIS FLESH, but simply ERADICATED DEATH, Satan’s POWER,  Hebrews 2:14  by

    HIS OWN SPIRIT.  ETERNAL LIFE. Thus

    THE SON OF MAN,

    “THE WORD” Jesus’flesh GLORIFIED  ON THE CROSS ON HIS DEATH, John13:31,32, John17:2

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST. JESUS SIMPLY SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY.

    ON THE LAST DAY  ON EARTH, on his death, in 

    JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD.

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK!

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO HIS WORK.

    IN ONE INSTANT

    JESUS DIED AND LIVED: GLORIFIED!

    YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.

    ME: THAT’S WHY JESUS IS ONE OF A KIND.

    BECAUSE HE WAS “THE WORD”

    A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH.

    in all things like His brethren, likewise,  HUMANS WERE SPIRITS, REBELLIOUS ANGELS,  and became flesh through the process of THE WORLD, where Jesus, spirit was slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8) The only difference was that Jesus’ flesh was “THE WORD” of God hence: 

    FURNISHED BY THE FATHER, while humans were the substance of the cursed world. 

    Hebrews 10:5Wherefore, when he cometh into the world he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:

    but a body thou hast fitted to me.

    Luke 10:22 ALL THINGS (regarding the flesh)  are delivered to me by my Father. ( OF THE HOLY GHOST, DIVINE,)

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:
    and who the Father is, but the Son and
    to whom the Son will reveal him.

    in his embodiment.

    THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER, 
    HEBREWS 1:3 Who being

    the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory and
    the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance and
    upholding all things by  THE  WORD of his (FATHER’S) power.

    (   the Father is POWER, The Holy Ghost is LOVE, while the Son is WISDOM)

    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO ANOINTED. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO SACRIFICE .(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO REDEEMER.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO CHRIST. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

    Read:2 Corinthians 7:1-7 above!

    Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is

    the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS CHRIST)

    which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)

    was JUSTIFIED  in the SPIRIT, (JESUS DIVINE)

    (Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)

    YOU: We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth.

    NOT PRECISE IN RELATION TO YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING REGARDING JESUS OF NAZARETH.

    THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.

    cont.

    Peace and love ib Jesus Christ

     

    #862238
    Berean
    Participant

    We have many clear scriptures that say that it is God the Father alone, and by Himself, who created everything that exists.

    Using the scriptures falsely and against so many other scriptures that prove you wrong is exactly what false teachers do, you and Carmel make a good team. I hope others don’t believe your false confusions.

    Gene

    I can say the same thing. There are many texts that prove that God created all things through Jesus Christ. But you and Jodi make a good team to preach a false Christ and a false Gospel.

    Can you just explain to me Colossians.

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Explain to me what’s in bold.

    There’s a rehearsal if we understand like you and Jodi.

    …everything was created for him and by him…

    It seems strange

    Don’t you think so?

    Can you explain that?

    #862239
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene, where are the scriptures that say the Father alone created all things by Himself? I have seen where YHWH says that but not with the word “Father” in the context.

    LU

    #862240
    Berean
    Participant

     

    To all

    Here is also what I think. The revelations of God to his people are progressive … There is more light on the truth of who God is and who Jesus is in the New Testament than in the Old.

    #862241
    Berean
    Participant

    I meant that if we believe that “dia”
    means “for” in Colossians 1: 16b (all things were created by him, and for him: KJV)
    we have a rehearsal. I think this is rather “strange”

    #862244
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu……quite playing games, you as well as anyone here, should know that  Isa 44:21  the word LORD (adonia) used there  means the “Almighty God”.   you should also know scriptures says clearly,  “unto us there is “One” God and one mediator between God and men,  the “MAN ” Jesus Christ “. and what Jesus himself said, “that they might know you, the “ONLY” true God, and Jesus Christ who you have sent. 

    Now if you truly believe what God the Father said, and what Paul said and what Jesus also said. You should have no trouble knowing it was the all mighty God, “the Father”, who created everything that exists and he did it alone and by himself.  If you people can’t except those clear scriptures as truth,  then you haven’t even began to know the truth yet.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #862245
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean, you said there is more enlighten on who God is and who Jesus is in the new teatement, then the old, “bad form”,   you couldn’t be more wrong even if you tried,  it is the old Testement that clearly show exactly who Jesus is. You saying that explains why you believe in a false Christ, not the one mentioned in scriptures.  The old and the New Testements both agree with eachother on who Jesus was and is.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #862248
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Lightenup,

    YOU:Gene, where are the scriptures that say the Father alone created all things by Himself? I have seen where YHWH says that but not with the word “Father” in the context.

    ME: In the chapter that speaks of YHWH himself creating heaven, earth, and man, He speaks of His SONS, so thus YHWH is recognized as the FATHER.

    In this chapter you are reading that which is the WILL of  the FATHER, you are reading that which is TO BE DONE ON EARTH, and you are reading that the Father wants people to do His will. 

    Jesus asks us to pray unto our Father recognizing that His will be done. Jesus tells us that those who follow the will of his Father are his brothers and sisters.

    Luke 11: 22 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

    Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    The Hallowed name of the Father in Isaiah 45 IS YHWH, and He by HIMSELF created heaven, earth and man.

    Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts…17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 

    The Son has his OWN NAME, and the Father has his OWN NAME. The Father’s OWN name is YHWH, and the Son’s OWN name is Jesus, and “every tongue should confess that Jesus the anointed is lord, TO THE GLORY OF God THE FATHER

    Recall, 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Jesus didn’t say hallowed be OUR NAME, the Father clearly has HIS OWN NAME. Jesus preached that which was to be done on earth according to the will of the Father. That which Jesus spoke that were not his words concerning the will of the Father, they were the Father’s words, and we read of that same will of the Father in Isaiah 45.

    In chapter 45, you have the Father’s will, the Father’s words, and you hear Him tell you that He created heaven, earth, and man HIMSELF,

    Very simple Lightenup, in Isaiah 45 you are reading of the will of the Father, what is to be done on earth, and it is this Father who created earth by Himself, and His will was for it to be inhabited, He made it not in vain. You are told in Psalms 8 that which He made, His purpose was to give it to a HUMAN BEING to have dominion over it.

    In chapter 45 the Father speaks of this HUMAN BEING, the Father raises him up in righteousness and directs all His ways so that he will deliver YHWH our Father’s captives. This is the same man of Isaiah 46, YHWH our Father declared from the beginning things not yet done, a man would come whom YHWH would call to execute His purpose of salvation. All things YHWH made himself, He did so by reason of and for this human being who was promised to receive dominion overall the works of YHWH our Father’s hands.

     

    #862249
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene

    i don’t believe anyone here is playing games. This discussion is serious.

    Regarding your claim that Isaiah 44:21 has Adonia (Lord) in it, it is not there. Even in the whole chapter of Isaiah 44, Adonia (Lord ) is not there. You are confusing the name YHWH (LORD) with Adonia.

    Can you even admit that, Gene? Now where is the word “Father” in a passage as if it was the Father alone who created all things. I know that you can show that YHWH did that. I agree that YHWH alone created all things but I realize that YHWH manifest himself as God of gods AND Lord of lords and I know that there is one God, the Father AND one Lord who is Jesus Christ. And I know that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords. YHWH manifests himself in the two persons of Father and Son.

    That understanding will open up the beauty of the gospel to you.

    Blessings, LU

Viewing 20 posts - 19,921 through 19,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account