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Soooooooo, you can’t prove the Jesus is The Messiah! I understand, I can’t make you see what you don’t want to see; I can only present it. The reality is, it’s up to you to make the choice and I can attest it’s a hard one…for months I kept what I was finding to myself. Also, you would spend less time learning what G-d said than you are currently spending to justify the Jesus.
The question, whether you like it or not, is when did G-d ever impregnate a woman because that is what the NT says G-d did. When did he ever step in and mess with the natural procreation process he created by physically inseminating anyone? HE said to be fruitful and multiply and sent man on his merry way to make babies. G-d’s design is the only proof needed that The Messiah is going to be biologically connected to David thru Solomon. To continue to say G-d impregnated Mary introduces paganism into the faith (criticize the Greek and Romans, but not christianity). You still haven’t given any passage that states G-d will impregnate a woman and you never will, because none exist. This immaculate conception was made up.
To justify the lack of finding this mystery passage of G-d impregnating someone, you counter with creation and Eve not having a biological father; do you struggle with what came first, the chicken or the egg? Nothing existed at the time of creation, no fish, mammals, insects, plants, HUMANS; so your justification falls apart immediately by trying to bring in creation. It would seem you are having an extremely difficult time justifying your beliefs and are reaching deep into the abyss of man’s reasoning to find an answer that could stick; however, the answers are in front of you and all you have to do is read!
Basically, we have strike one against the Jesus being The Messiah; you have provided zero proof or evidence the Jesus inherited his lineage or tribal lineage could come thru the mother. Are you ready to tackle the next item the Jesus never accomplished?
PS
The fact you responded to nothing I wrote didn’t go unnoticed!@ DT
You haven’t proven that Jesus is not the Son of God, even though the Old Testam@ent mentions Him in proverbs 30:4
To the general reader:
This discussion has circled around one repeated claim: that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because “the Messiah must have a biological father from Solomon’s line.” The problem is that this requirement is not found anywhere in the Tanakh. It is an assumption being treated as a divine rule.
Here are the key points that have been made:
1. The Tanakh never says the Messiah must have a human biological father.
The passages quoted (Numbers 1, Numbers 2, Ezra 2:59) describe census procedures and record‑checking. They do not establish a law that God Himself must follow in bringing forth the Messiah.2. The Tanakh shows God is not bound by normal human procreation.
Adam and Eve were fully human and had no biological parents. Their existence shows that God is not limited by the biological process He later gave to humanity. The claim that “God never bypasses natural procreation” is contradicted by the opening chapters of Genesis.3. The Tanakh contains a prophecy of a miraculous conception.
Isaiah 7:14 speaks of a young woman conceiving in a way that is not ordinary. This is a sign from God, not a normal pregnancy. The idea that God cannot bring forth the Messiah in a miraculous way is not a Tanakh teaching.4. The Tanakh does not require biological descent through Solomon.
The covenant is with David’s house, not Solomon alone. Solomon fulfills the immediate promise of building the temple, but the eternal promise is to David’s dynasty. The claim that “it must be Solomon” is not stated anywhere in the text.5. The Tanakh actually creates a problem for biological descent through Solomon.
Jeremiah 22:30 curses Jeconiah’s biological line, saying none of his descendants will prosper on David’s throne. If the Messiah must be biologically descended from Solomon through Jeconiah, then the Messiah is disqualified by the Tanakh itself.6. The Tanakh shows tribal identity can be assigned by legal fatherhood.
Genesis 48 shows Jacob assigning tribal identity to Ephraim and Manasseh by adoption. Their tribal identity does not come from their biological father’s tribe. This is tribal identity by legal fatherhood, not biology.7. The argument being presented is based on assumptions, not on the Tanakh.
The repeated claims that “God never bypasses natural procreation,” “tribal lineage can only be paternal,” “the Messiah must be biologically from Solomon,” and “adoption cannot transfer lineage” are not stated anywhere in the Tanakh. They are personal rules being imposed on the text.In short: the foundational claim that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because He has no biological father is not a Tanakh teaching. The Tanakh itself shows that God is not limited by human biology, gives a prophecy of a miraculous conception, and never requires biological descent through Solomon. The argument being made rests on assumptions, not on what the Tanakh actually says.
Proverbs 30 does?!?!?
We’ve been over this passage and the answer is G-d is the only who has done all of these things; however the question is rhetorical and obviously doesn’t need and answer. Even Agur, who claims to be the dumbest of the dumb, knows this…and you don’t??!?
“Who has ascended into heaven, and then descended?
…gathered up the winds in his fists?
…bound up the waters in his cloak?
…established all the ends of the earth?The passage in summary, since you have forgotten, is Agur asking what man has done all these things and if there is a man who has, what is the name of their son. NOTHING ABOUT THE JESUS ANYWHERE!!! Christianity has made all this up.
Nice try, but the Jesus isn’t The Messiah; unless you have proof he descended from Solomon because what i read in the NT is the Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and the spirit is of no relation to David and Solomon. May want to go back a couple pages where Lightenup’s and I started this conversation and catch up…you’re a little behind!
To the general reader,
Let’s have a quick lesson in truth!
This discussion has circled around one repeated claim: that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because “the Messiah must have a biological father from Solomon’s line.” The problem is that this requirement is not found anywhere in the Tanakh. It is an assumption being treated as a divine rule.
This is quoted from Lightenup and since he obviously didn’t read the passages I gave him that confirm The Messiah is to be a biological descendant of David AND Solomon, I give you the passage that explicitly states The Messiah MUST come thru Solomon, I Chron 17:10-15:
“I declare to you that the LORD will build a dynastic house for you! 11 When the time comes for you to die, I will raise up your descendant, one of your own sons, to succeed you, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He will build me a house, and I will make his dynasty permanent. 13 I will become his father and he will become my son. I will never withhold my loyal love from him, as I withheld it from the one who ruled before you. 14 I will put him in permanent charge of my house and my kingdom; his dynasty will be permanent.” 15 Nathan told David all these words that were revealed to him.
G-d tells David after he dies HE will raise up one of his sons to succeed him; when HE does, G-d will establish this sons kingdom; this son will build a house (temple) for G-d; G-d will make his dynasty permanent (did we catch that?!?!); G-d will become his father and this son will become G-d’s son (the writer of Hebrews misapplies this to the Jesus when it was said of Solomon – we’ll get there momentarily to the name of this son of David); and G-d says this dynasty will be permanent, where we get the idea The Messiah will come. The pronoun “his” in this passage refers to the son of David and no one else and who is this son?
To find out who this son is we must read I Chron 22:7-10:
7 David said to Solomon: My son, I really wanted to build a temple to honor the LORD my God. 8 But the LORD said to me: ‘You have spilled a great deal of blood and fought many battles. You must not build a temple to honor me, for you have spilled a great deal of blood on the ground before me. 9 Look, you will have a son, who will be a peaceful man. I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side. Indeed, Solomon will be his name; I will give Israel peace and quiet during his reign. 10 He will build a temple to honor me; he will become my son, and I will become his father. I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel.’
Here we read basically the same words from chapter 17 but now we get a name of this son – Solomon. Solomon’s dynasty will be established permanently and therefore The Messiah MUST be a biological descendant of Solomon because G-d said HE would grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel. There is no adoption spoken of or passing on “legal rights” of the kingship (which still hasn’t been substantiated by a certain someone), and it can’t be thru Nathan as the Luke writes in his gospel.
Now we discover this certain someone doesn’t have the fortitude to continue on discovering how the Jesus fails to be the true Messiah as we come to our third point, “The Messiah will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.”
Desire truth– God, your God is saying Jesus has a God–it is not calling Jesus God. 100% fact-God does not have a God. Its saying God anointed Jesus with the oil of exultation, more than his partners( angels)
The passage you are quoting is from Psalm 45:
6 Your throne, O God, is permanent. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice. 7 You love justice and hate evil. For this reason God, your God has anointed you with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions.
This Psalm is a romantic poem celebrating the Davidic king’s marriage to a lovely princess; when did the Jesus get married? The psalmist praises the king for his military prowess and commitment to justice; when did the Jesus show his military might and justly rule? The psalmist continues by urging the bride to be loyal to the king and says the marriage will be blessed with royal offspring; how exactly does this apply to the Jesus? Now that we understand what the Psalm is about; did the unknown writer of Hebrews apply the passage from Psalm 45 correctly?
What the writer did was copy and paste a passage about a Davidic king and misapplied it to the Jesus. Context of what is written is important; this is why christianity, when it is studied and not just believed, begins to fall apart. Can you substantiate the passages quoted from the Tanakh in Hebrews chapter one are speaking of the Jesus and their original context was intended to be applied to the Jesus?
You did say something interesting, “God anointed Jesus with the oil of exultation, more than his partners (angels)”; the angels were the Jesus’ “partners”, they were his equal?!?!
I do find it hilarious when the christian thought or doctrine is challenged, none can support their answer. The typical response is ignore, deflect, or move the goal post to something else. Prove the Jesus is The Messiah! Verify everything!! Why do you believe what you believe; if you can’t support it, why believe it?
Did you do as I said and go back a few pages where this discussion began? Mary has NOTHING to do with lineage and Ezra explains that; why did the men tell their foreign wives and children to go away? Jewishness is maternal and comes from the mother, NOT the father. Never mind the fact the Luke account goes thru David’s son Nathan and NOT Solomon…fail! Tribal lineage is paternal and comes from the father; we find this in Numbers 1 & 2 where a census is taken and the sons are counted with their father’s house. This has NOT changed in three millennia as it is still used today to determine tribal lineage.
Joseph’s lineage runs thru Jeconiah and he was “cursed” (G-d removed his kingship) and was counted as childless; so any kingship coming thru Jeconiah wouldn’t have counted. Both birth accounts fail, rendering the Jesus as a false messiah. Never mind the fact the Jesus told his disciples he would return in their generation and didn’t (Matt 24…read it!); false messiah!
When will people start verifying what they have been told is truth? Stop studying the Greek Testament and start studying the Tanakh. Remove you Jesus Goggles so you can see the truth!
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