John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,961 through 19,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862288
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    you

     

    “PSALM 8 tells you that the ONE who created the heavens YHWH, becomes mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visits him, makes him a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, CROWNS this human being with glory and honor, and gives this human being dominion over that which YHWH created”

    ME

    Isaiah 9:6 IS VERY CLEAR

    No need for long comments, especially when they are unscriptural.

     

     

     

    #862289
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I am not seeing you apply scripture with scripture.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

    A few things here, the Son is not God, nor is God the Son. God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, there was NO Son speaking unto “in these last days”. The “whom” that is appointed heir of all things IS the HUMAN BEING of Psalms 8. This HUMAN BEING receives GLORY and honor from YHWH and is given dominion over the works of YHWH’s hands. This human is not YHWH. This human did not create the heavens or all things, YHWH did the work and then He gives dominion of all things over to this HUMAN BEING.

    If all things YHWH created were for the purpose of a human being to receive glory, honor, and dominion over all the things, then IN TRUTH, all things YHWH created would be created by reason of this human because it is FOR this human being.

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    The one who sits on the right hand of the Majesty on high, IS the Son of Man. HE is WHO is the brightness of God’s glory, and it is by a man who purged our sins who upheld all things by the word of power that he had received of God when God gave him the Spirit in full measure so that he could declare and fulfill God’s word. The one who we are told receives this Spirit in fullness is the Son of Jesse, where YHWH promised that He would not give His GLORY to any other but him. This Son of Jesse was called to righteousness where YHWH directed all his ways FOR him TO BE FOR A LIGHT, this LIGHT WAS SENT out into the world where he having the fullness of God’s Spirit was of YHWH’s glory, as YHWH is light.   

    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    When the Son of Man was raised from the dead he received the promised Holy Spirit, he was begotten by God, where he became an eternal Son. This Son was for a witness to many that he was a firstborn of the dead, giving them hope to the fulfillment of God’s promise of eternal life. This Son of Man will return to the world again, in his Father’s glory, this time to reward those that are his with eternal life.

    7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    The Son has been anointed above his fellows. This Son spoke God’s word saying, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” This Son was raised from the dead having received the MERCIES of God that God had promised to David. As we are told in Chronicles 17, the son of David who God would be a Father to, God promised that He would not take His MERCY/goodness away from him.

    Psalms 136: 1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. 6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever. 7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

    John 10: 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    LU, the Son who is anointed above his FELLOWS is NOT YHWH, he receives YHWH’s mercy, he receives YHWH’s Spirit to do the works of YHWH and to speak YHWH’s words and to fulfill YHWH’s words. YHWH is a God of gods, and Jesus is made a god, and Jesus is made a lord of lords by the One True Lord of lords YHWH.

    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    VERSE 10 is speaking of the Father, not the Son. The Son went from mortal to being immortal. He was the human who was raised up and was begotten by the Father.

    13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    The Son of Man sits at God’s right hand you are directly told. The HUMAN BEING of Psalm 8 is he who YHWH makes his enemies into his footstool. Likewise in 1 Corinthians 15, the man raised from the dead first returns to earth in his Father’s glory to put down all rule and authority, until all enemies are under his foot.

    1 Cor 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    The Son is NOT YHWH, the One True God, the Son is a human being that has YHWH all in him, he is an heir of God and we are heirs of God being a joint heir with the one who was anointed above his fellows to be a king of kings.

    #862290
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YES Isaiah 9:6 is VERY clear and those with TRUTH APPLY God’s WORD with God’s WORD. If you do not apply Psalm 8 to Isaiah 9:6 you will interpret it in IGNORANCE and follow the heart of your own imagination.

    Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    The child that shall have dominion rest upon his shoulders IS the HUMAN BEING of Psalm 8. The HUMAN BEING that YHWH was mindful of, visited, crowned with glory and honor and gave this HUMAN BEING dominion over all things that YHWH himself had made. 

    #862291
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    Human interpretation

    Psalm 8  have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity .He speak about man not Jésus.

    What do you do with:

    “He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)” ?????????????????

     

    Jodi

    Don’t run away from the reality of God’s word

    The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.

    “He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)”

    Jesus is divino-human

     

     

    #862292
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Psalm 8 have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity 

    ME: It has EVERYTHING to do with JESUS as you are directly given in Hebrews 2. 

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 

    Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man (enowsh –mortal man) , that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (Adam –human being), that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 

    Berean,

    JESUS is a human being who YHWH was mindful of and visited, and YHWH crowned this human being with glory and honor, and gave this human being dominion overall all things that YHWH had made. Jesus is NOT YHWH, nor did he create all things, YHWH created all things knowing full fell He was going to give dominion of all things to this human being.

    #862293
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Don’t run away from the reality of God’s word

    The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.

    “He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God (el-mighty man), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)”

    ME: 

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (EL-mighty man), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    APPLY what further Isaiah teaches you,

     Isaiah 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 

    6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

    …10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Jesus is the son of Jesse who God rests His Spirit of Wisdom, Council and Might, Knowledge and fear of the LORD.. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.(Isaiah 11).

    I don’t run away from God’s word,

    Jesus is the Root and Offspring of David where he sits on his father David’s throne ACCORDING to the FLESH, where he is a Son of God as we are Sons of God, ACCORDING to the SPIRIT. As Jesus is an heir of God I am a JOINT HEIR with Jesus. As Jesus was raised up begotten by God receiving the promised Holy Spirit, those that are his are to receive the same promise, where God gives us a heart of flesh and places His Spirit within us causing us to walk in all His ways like Jesus does.

    Jesus is called a firstborn of many brethren for a reason Berean.

    YHWH made humans in His own image, not in VAIN, and He made humans to receive their own glory as humans. The Spirit is a witness to our spirit that we are children of God. 

    YHWH’s WORD from the beginning was of a man who would execute His purpose of salvation. Through this man receiving dominion over all the works that YHWH alone created, this man is able to execute the fullness of that purpose, eternal life and where the earth will be at rest filled with the knowledge of YHWH. 

    #862294
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.

    ME: The WORD of YHWH before the world began was eternal life, and that a man would execute that purpose. Are you going to just flat out deny Isaiah 46 as well as the other passages below Berean??????????

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Berean, THE MAN whom God called to execute His council IS NOT GOD.

    In the beginning was God’s WORD of LIFE, that word of LIFE is UPON GOD, and IS GOD, God IS LIFE. We don’t have the WORD of LIFE without the WORD of the man JESUS (they are one and the same, going hand in hand), for he is the man who from the beginning was going to execute God’s purpose to bring eternal LIFE. God had even determined from the beginning that this man would be perfected and shed his blood. This man was foreordained from the foundation of the world to do so.  Jesus did not pre-exist as God, he was in God’s WORD from the beginning, and God made all things FOR him so He could give it to him to have dominion over, whereby that dominion he executes the fulfillment of God’s purpose of bringing the world into peace and giving mankind eternal life.

    #862295
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    you

     

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Psalm 8 have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity

    ME: It has EVERYTHING to do with JESUS as you are directly given in Hebrews 2.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man (enowsh –mortal man) , that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (Adam –human being), that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

    Berean,

    JESUS is a human being who YHWH was mindful of and visited, and YHWH crowned this human being with glory and honor, and gave this human being dominion overall all things that YHWH had made. Jesus is NOT YHWH, nor did he create all things, YHWH created all things knowing full fell He was going to give dominion of all things to this human being.

     

    ME

    Pss.8
    [1] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
    [2] Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
    [3] When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
    [4] What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    [6] Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
    [7] All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
    [8] The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

    WHERE YOU SEE AN INVOLVEMENT IN JESUS IN PARTICULAR
    I DO SAY “IN PARTICULAR.”

    IN REALITY JESUS “WHO LIVED IN FORM OF GOD ……TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:”

    TOOK  UPON HIM… PHILIPPIANS 1
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    HEBREUX 2  YES SPEAK OF HUMANITY OF CHRIST .
    BUT don’t forget HEBREWS 1 WHO SPEAKS OF HIS DIVINITY
    AND ITS CREATIVE POWER(omnipotence)

    [5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    Psalm 8 takes us back to Genesis where it is written:
    “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female…

    1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowls of the air, and over every living creature that moveth upon the earth.

    [9] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

     

    HEBREWS 1 :4 …..DIVINITY OF CHRIST HIGHER THAN ANGELS

    [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

     

    HEBREWS 2: 9…… HUMANITY OF CHRIST LITTLE LOWER THAN ANGELS

    [9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    God bless

    #862638
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jodi

     

    The WORD WAS GOD

     

    ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD

    AND THIS WAS JESUS

    THE SON OF GOD

    HE TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM

    OF A SERVANT BEING MADE

    IN THE LIKE N’EST OF MEN.

    THIS THE ONLY TRUTH

    ETERNAL TRUTH

     

     

    #862639
    Berean
    Participant

    BEING MADE IN THE LIKENESS

    OF MEN

    #862643
    Berean
    Participant

    …THE WORD WAS GOD….

    ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD

    NOT A THOUGHT

    NOT A WORD SPOKEN

    OK ???

    RELATION JOHN 1 WITH 1 JOHN1

    John 1
    [4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    IN HIM

    HIM >>>>> A PERSON >>> NOT A THOUGHT …NOT A WORD SPOKEN

    IN HIM WAS LIFE……

    1 JOHN 1

    1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE

    IN HIM WAS LIFE>>>> WORD OF LIFE

    [2] (For THE LIFE was manifested, and we have SEEN IT, and bear witness, and shew unto you THAT ETERNAL LIFE, which was , WITH THE FATHER , and was manifested unto us;)

    [3] That which we have SEEN and HEARD declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with THE FATHER, and with HIS SON JESUS CHRIST .

    #862645
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Jodi

     

    You

    The WORD of YHWH before the world began was eternal life…

    ME

    Eternal life is not a person

    THE WORD WAS GOD

    THE WORD IS A PERSON

    OK ???

    THE WORD IS THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS SPOKE THE WORDS OF GOD

    OK ???

    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

     

    #862646
    Berean
    Participant

    HIS NAME IS  CELLE THE WORD OF GOD

     

    WE GIVEN A NAME ONLY TO A PERSON

    OK???

    JÉSUS CHRIST IS” THE WORD”

    WHO WAS WITH THE GOD IN THE BIGINNING

    AND HE WAS GOD

     

     

     

     

    #862649
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus is his name. He returns with the name: ‘The Word of God’.

    #862652
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    Yes t8,

    His name is called:

    The Word of God

    King of kings

    Lord of lords

    Some here have yet to call Him THE Lord of lords. To some He is just a lord of lords. Big difference. Perhaps it takes a greater measure of faith to make Jesus THE Lord of your life instead of a lord, like a good neighbor.

    Are we supposed to love Him like we are to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and soul and mind or are we supposed to love Him like we are to love our neighbors as our self?

    Take care, LU

    #862653
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    While his name is the Word of God, he comes in the name of the “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    And surely he is not God, YHWH. He is God’s son.

    God is a Spirit and not a man.

    No man has seen God or can see him.

    #862655
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Not quite, t8,

    Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

    He IS Lord of lords AND King of kings.

    Now that you can see that, does it make a difference…it says that the Lamb IS Lord of lords, it doesn’t say the Lamb comes in the name of the Lord of lords?

    The only begotten Son of God is the only Son of God in the highest possible way to be a son. Because He is the only begotten son of an eternal being, He has within him eternal essence, just as eternal as His Father’s essence. They are YHWH. YHWH, the self-existent one manifested as Father and Son, two persons.

    Deut 10:17

    For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.

    #862656
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Compare the two versions of the verse you base your views on:

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Big difference. The second version is from an earlier Greek manuscript as I understand it.

    Take care and stay well, LU

    #862657
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You (Mike) said: Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4. What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them? What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?

    LU: YHWH , the One God manifests Himself in two persons, the Father and the Son. The Son is the servant of the Father and not the other way around.

    #862658
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    I realize that you believe that Jesus, a man became a god. I believe that the Lord of lords became a man according to the flesh. You believe that Jesus’ resurrection made him the firstborn of God. I believe that before creation he became the firstborn of God and the resurrection made him the firstborn from the dead. If you believe that Jesus was not the firstborn before he died then he would not qualify to be compared to the passover lamb which must be an unblemished first born (before it is sacrificed). It seems that those who believe that Jesus became the firstborn before creation have a greater measure of faith. Maybe that is the problem.

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