John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,961 through 25,980 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #948095
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

    “We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
    (Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

    #948098
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.

    Amazing!

     

     

    #948099
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Duplicate post deleted.

     

     

    #948100
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    More from Origen:

    1. Psalm 102 → Hebrews 1:10–12 applied to the Son
    Source: Contra Celsum 1.67
    “In speaking of the Son he says: ‘Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth…’”

    2. Psalm 102 → The Son as Creator
    Source: De Principiis 1.2.2
    “The Son… is said in the Epistle to the Hebrews to have laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens.”

    3. Psalm 102 → The Son’s immutability
    Source: De Principiis 1.2.8
    “The Son… is said to be unchangeable: ‘Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.’”

    4. Psalm 102 → Explicitly “said of the Son”
    Source: Commentary on John 1.37
    “It is said of the Son: ‘Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth…’”

    5. Psalm 102 → Eternal years of the Son
    Source: Homilies on Jeremiah 9.4
    “Concerning the Son it is written: ‘Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.’”

    6. YHWH who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob = the Son
    Source: Contra Celsum 5.39
    “The God who appeared to the patriarchs was the Logos of God… not the invisible Father.”

    7. YHWH in the burning bush = the Son
    Source: Homilies on Exodus 4.5
    “The one who speaks to Moses from the bush is the Son of God.”

    8. YHWH who speaks through the prophets = the Son
    Source: De Principiis 1.2.6–7
    “It was the Son of God who spoke in the prophets… the same Christ who later became man.”

    9. YHWH who wrestled with Jacob = the Son
    Source: Commentary on Genesis (fragment)
    Origen identifies the divine figure who wrestles with Jacob as the Logos, not the Father.

    10. YHWH who walked in the Garden = the Son
    Source: De Principiis 4.4.1
    Origen says the visible God who walked and spoke is always the Son, since the Father is invisible.

    11. YHWH who destroyed Sodom = the Son
    Source: Commentary on Genesis (fragment)
    Origen says the “Lord” who rained fire from the Lord is the Logos.

    12. YHWH who gave the Law = the Son
    Source: Homilies on Exodus 12.4
    Origen says the Son is the one who gave the Law to Moses.

    13. YHWH who appeared to Isaiah = the Son
    Source: Commentary on John 2.2
    Origen affirms John 12:41: Isaiah saw the glory of Christ, the divine Lord on the throne.

    14. YHWH who appeared to Joshua as “Captain of the Lord’s Host” = the Son
    Source: Homilies on Joshua 2.1
    Origen identifies the divine commander as Christ.

    15. YHWH who spoke to Samuel = the Son
    Source: Homilies on 1 Samuel (fragment)
    Origen says the divine voice is the Logos, not the Father.

    SUMMARY:
    Origen consistently identifies the Son as the visible YHWH of the Old Testament—Creator, Lawgiver, the One who appears, speaks, saves, judges, and reigns. He applies Psalm 102 (a YHWH text) directly to the Son multiple times and treats all divine manifestations as the work of the Logos.

    #948102
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.
    Amazing!

    The Jesus is G-d of the “Old Testament”?!?!?! Did the Jesus ever claim to be G-d, the Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth? Never ONCE does he say it! I suppose you will claim the “I AM” statement in John was a reference back to Exodus 3; which couldn’t be more false, but we’ll leave that for a later time.

    Who or what will be folded up like a garment and be changed in the Hebrew passage?

    #948103
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    YHWH the Father of Jesus, identified His Son as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the earth and established the heavens as well in Hebrews 1:10-12.

    Heaven and earth will be someday be rolled up like a garment by the Son.

    YHWH is both God and Lord

    #948104
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ lightenup,

    You didn’t answer the question; who or what will be folded up like a garment and be changed?

    How can YHWY be both the Father and the son (aka lord)? Keith is onto something…

    #948105
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    I guess you kind of answered the question of who or what will be rolled up; but who or what is the “they”? If it’s simply heaven and earth as the Psalm says, what is the writer of Hebrews getting at? The Psalm is speaking of G-d lasting longer than HIS creation as HE is eternal AND what does this have to do with the Jesus?

    #948106
    Berean
    Participant

    Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
    [3] I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
    [4] Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?👉 what is his name👈, and 👉what is his son’s name👈, if thou canst tell?

    Proverbs 30

    #948107
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Not Proverbs 30…AGAIN!!!

    Have you not read the passage with comprehension? Are we really using “pointy fingers” without explaining what you’re talking about?!!!?

    Reading this passage we start with Agur speaking with two others and basically calls himself stupid. He then asks them four rhetorical questions; who has gone to heaven and back, who has gathered the wind in their hand, bound water in their coat, or has established the earth? Of course the only and obvious answer is G-d; only G-d can do all these things. Then the final question asks, “what is his name?” it’s not making the conclusion it’s G-d; it’s asking the two people what man can do these things and if there is someone who can, what’s his sons name. Since the answer is no human can, there is no son of this non-existent person, either.

    This is a simple proverb; why make everything complicated? Now it’s your turn to explain how this passage relates to the Jesus.

    #948108
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    In Psalm 102, the thing that “will be rolled up like a garment” is the created order itself—the heavens and the earth. Psalm 102:25–26 says that the heavens are the work of God’s hands, and that they “will perish,” and “will all wear out like a garment.”

    The one who rolls them up (or “changes them like a robe”) is God—YHWH—the same subject of all the verbs in the passage (“laid,” “remain,” “change”). The imagery emphasizes that creation is temporary, but God is eternal.

    Hebrews 1:10–12 quotes this passage and applies it directly to the Son, identifying Him with the eternal Creator whose years never end.

    When you read the name of YHWH in the OT,  the pronouns “He” or “They” or “Us”can represent the unity of the Father, Son and Spirit, or the members within the unity, the Father or the Son or their Spirit.

    #948109
    Berean
    Participant

    This is a simple proverb; why make everything complicated? Now it’s your turn to explain how this passage relates to the Jesus.

    • who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?👉 what is his name👈, and 👉what is his son’s name👈, if thou canst tell?

    #948110
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Wow what an intellectual response; you have made me more aware of who the jesus is…loads of sarcasm!

    I explained the passage, how come you can’t give your thoughts on it? Repeating the words of the passages DOES NOT EXPLAIN HOW THE PASSAGE IS A REFERENCE TO THE jESUS!!!! How do you NOT understand that?!? Why does the “christian” have such difficultly in explaining what and why they believe what they believe?

    It’s almost like “christians” have been brainwashed into believing everything they have been told…tell a lie long enough and it becomes truth!

    #948111
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ lightenup,

    You understand Psalm 102 perfectly; why are you corrupting the meaning of it by applying it to the Jesus? It seems you are using the Hebrews 1:10-12 passage to claim G-d of the Tanakh and the Jesus of the NT are the same. To unpack what is being said in this chapter one needs to begin in verse 5, where this dialog begins? G-d is supposedly to have said in reference to the Jesus:

    Verse 5a “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You” a quote from Ps 2:7; a Psalm referencing the individual David, NOT his descendants, and MOST DEFINITELY NOT the Jesus…corruption

    Verse 5b “I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me” a quote from II Sam 7:14; and G-d is speaking of David’s son Solomon, NOT the Jesus…corruption

    Verse 6 G-d is speaking of bringing “the firstborn into the world” and says “And let all the angels of God worship Him” and this is suppose to be a quote from Ps 97:7; EXCEPT that’s NOT AT ALL what Ps 97:7 says “All who worship idols are ashamed, those who boast about worthless idols. All the gods bow down before him.” Finding another lie, twist, and rewriting of the Tanakh; completely changing what was actually written. Never mind the FACT the Psalm is about G-d being the sovereign, just king of the world who comes in power to vindicate his people…corruption

    Verse 7 the writer claims G-d says of the angels “Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire” a quote from Ps 104:4; except we find another passage twisted and rewritten (what is actually written), “He makes the winds his messengers, and the flaming fire his attendant.” It’s the winds that become G-d’s messengers, NOT angels. Another Psalm that praises God as the ruler of the world and who sustains all life…corruption

    Verse 8 is an interesting passage as it is suppose to be G-d is speaking about the son “But of the Son He says” and in this next part HE calls the Jesus “Oh God” and “God, your God”; G-d is calling the Jesus G-d?!?!?! That’s right the Jesus is “the god of the OT.” Looking at the passages quoted from the Tanakh, the passages have nothing to do with the Jesus let alone claiming the Jesus is equal to or is G-d.

    The first part “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.” is quoted from Ps 45:6 and is speaking specifically of G-d who’s “kingdom is a scepter of justice.”

    Verse 9 continues with Ps 45:7 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness” is a reference to David who loved righteousness and hated lawlessness AND it’s “For this reason God, your God has anointed you (David) with the oil of joy, elevating you (David) above your (David’s) companions.” However, according to the writer of Hebrews it was G-d who anointed HIMSELF.

    Verses 10-12 we’ll combine together as they are from a single passage; and according to the unknown writer is suppose to be another reference to the Jesus, but this time as the creator of heaven and earth, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands” a quote from Ps 102:25. According to Genesis it was G-d who did all creating, not by or thru anyone; but HE, HIMSELF did it all.

    Verse 11 we continue with, “They will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment” a quote from Ps 102:26 which references G-d’s creation as being temporary when compared to G-d; which leads us into the next verse.

    Verse 12 “And like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” a quote from Ps 102:27 and confirms this existence we call life can end and G-d will still remain.

    The psalmist in 102 laments his oppressed state, but longs for a day when G-d will restore Jerusalem and vindicate his suffering people. When is the Jesus planning on doing this; when he “returns”??? The Jesus only speaks of judgment and condemnation on those who failed to believe in him.

    Prove verses 6, 7 aren’t phantom verses, because I didn’t find in the Tanakh; the unknown writer cut out what he didn’t like and inserted what he thought could make the Jesus into G-d. Verses 8-9 make zero sense; G-d is calling “the son”, “G-d” and speaking of “the son” as if HE (G-d) is below him (“the son”, this is language of subservience, not authority). Verses 10-12 are stripped from the Tanakh and twisted by the unknown writer to falsely point to the Jesus and then you back track this to John 1:1-3 calling it proof the Jesus is G-d?!?!? What you’ve done is taken one piece of corruption, applied it to another piece of corruption, and called it truth.

    I am dumbfounded how no one sees this or how all turn a blind eye to the corruption that is written in black and white! The NT is suppose to be the “infallible word of G-d” and we have this!

    #948112
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    Your entire critique rests on a single assumption that is historically false:

    You are comparing Hebrews to the medieval Masoretic Text (MT), finalized around 900–1000 AD.
    Hebrews is quoting the Septuagint (LXX), the Jewish Scriptures used in the first century.
    Every “corruption” you think you see is simply the LXX wording, not a Christian invention.

    Once that is acknowledged, your argument collapses.

    1. “These verses aren’t in the Tanakh.”
    They *are* in the Tanakh used by Jews in the time of Jesus.
    Deut 32:43 (“Let all the angels of God worship Him”) appears in the LXX AND in the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QDeutq).
    The MT is simply shorter. Hebrews is quoting the older Jewish textual tradition.

    2. Psalm 2 and 2 Samuel 7
    You assert these are not Messianic.
    But Jewish sources *before Christianity* apply Psalm 2 to the Messiah:
    – Dead Sea Scrolls (4QFlorilegium)
    – Targum Jonathan
    – Rabbinic tradition (Sukkah 52a)
    The same is true of the Davidic covenant in 2 Sam 7.
    Your interpretation is post‑Christian, not ancient.

    3. Psalm 104:4
    You object that “winds” are messengers, not angels.
    But the Hebrew *mal’akhim* means messengers/angels, and the LXX translators (Jewish scholars) rendered it “angels.”
    Hebrews quotes the LXX. Nothing is “twisted.”

    4. Psalm 45
    The Hebrew text itself calls the Davidic king “Elohim” (“Your throne, O God…”).
    This is not a Christian corruption.
    It is Jewish royal theology. Hebrews applies the royal psalm to the Messiah exactly as Jewish tradition did.

    5. Psalm 102
    Yes, the psalm speaks of YHWH.
    That is precisely why Hebrews uses it.
    The argument is:
    – The Father speaks to the Son (Heb 1:8)
    – The Father applies a YHWH‑passage to the Son (Heb 1:10–12)
    This is not “corruption.” It is a theological conclusion:
    If the Son shares the attributes of YHWH (eternal, unchanging, creator),
    then the Son participates in the divine identity.

    You haven’t refuted the argument.
    You’ve only assumed the conclusion is impossible.

    6. The real issue
    You are treating the medieval MT as the original Bible and the LXX as “corruption.”
    But the LXX is older, widely used by Jews, and supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls.
    Hebrews quotes the Scriptures as they existed in the first century, not the Scriptures as edited in the 10th century.

    Your critique fails because it is aimed at the wrong text.

     

    #948113
    Keith
    Participant

    There are 2 spots in NT where more than 1 is called God or god-John 1:1-2Cor 4:4– At both spots the true God is called Ho Theos=The God–Both the Word and satan are called Theos=god in this scenario. Trinity error has God to the Word and god to satan, it cannot be translated both ways. It is 100% undeniable fact god is correct for both the Word and satan in that scenario. Catholicism put God to the Word in their 4th century translating, carried over to every trinity bible translation. Other Greek scholars in history has a god at John 1:1 long before the New world translation did. Jesus was never with Catholicism, his adversary is( 2Cor 11:12-15-2Thess 2:3)–he has mislead billions with that capitol G God to the Word. The God Israel served is the true God=YHWH(Jehovah) he is a single being God. Its recorded history fact, at the council of Constantinople( 381 ce) the holy spirit was added for the very first time to a 3 godhead. Catholicism encyclopedia is clear-The assimilation of the trinity did not occur into a Christians life until near the end of the 4th century. You best relook at the facts.

    #948114
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Lightenup,

    I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it. I will say this in response to what you wrote, in none of your response did you address the core issue; nothing written in Hebrews chapter one is about the Jesus! It’s a twisting of the Hebrew scripture to fit the Jesus.

    When have you looked into the Jewish response to what you believe is truth? In all your responses you have given the christian rote answer, you’re like a parrot squawking; what is the Jewish response? The Tanakh belongs to them, it was given to them because it’s about them and NOT christianity; yet, you believe you understand it better than they do. Listen to Michael Skobac, Stuart Federow, Lawrence Hajioff, or Tovia Singer.

    Change your world or sit and be stuck in your rut.

    #948115
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @DesireTruth

    You didn’t address anything I wrote.
    You simply repeated your conclusion: “Hebrews isn’t about Jesus.”
    But you didn’t engage a single textual point.

    Let’s be clear about what actually happened in your reply:

    1. You did not answer the Septuagint issue.
    Every “corruption” you claimed was shown to be the LXX wording — the Jewish Scriptures used in the first century.
    You ignored this completely.

    2. You did not answer the Dead Sea Scrolls evidence.
    Deut 32:43 (“let all the angels of God worship Him”) appears in 4QDeutq.
    You ignored this too.

    3. You did not answer the fact that Psalm 2 was interpreted messianically by Jews before Christianity.
    Dead Sea Scrolls, Targum Jonathan, and early rabbinic sources all apply Psalm 2 to the Messiah.
    You didn’t touch it.

    4. You did not answer the grammar of Psalm 45.
    The Hebrew text itself calls the Davidic king “Elohim.”
    You skipped that as well.

    5. You did not answer the logic of Hebrews 1.
    The argument is simple:
    – The Father speaks to the Son (v. 8)
    – The Father applies a YHWH‑passage to the Son (vv. 10–12)
    You didn’t refute the argument.
    You just restated your conclusion.

    Instead of addressing any of these points, you shifted to:
    “Listen to Skobac, Federow, Hajioff, Singer.”

    Appealing to modern speakers is not a substitute for dealing with the actual text, the actual manuscripts, or the actual Jewish interpretations that existed before Christianity.

    You said the Tanakh “belongs to them.”
    Fine — then deal with the fact that *their own pre‑Christian sources* contradict your claims:

    – The LXX is a Jewish translation.
    – The DSS preserve the longer Deut 32:43.
    – Jewish tradition applied Psalm 2 to the Messiah.
    – Jewish royal theology calls the king “Elohim.”
    – Jewish wisdom literature presents a pre‑existent co‑creator.

    These are not “Christian rote answers.”
    These are Jewish texts, Jewish translations, and Jewish interpretations that existed long before the NT.

    If you want to argue Hebrews misuses the Tanakh, then you need to engage the actual textual data — not dismiss it and tell me to “change my world.”

    Right now, you’re avoiding the evidence, not answering it.

    #948116
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Keith

    “You missed that theos in 2 Corinthians 4:4 does have the article — but the presence or absence of the article never determines whether theos refers to the true God or a false god. Greek doesn’t work that way. The article marks specificity, not deity.”

    #948119
    Keith
    Participant

    Desire truth. Psalm 45:7 did not call Jesus Elohim, It stated that he has an Elohim( God)

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