John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,901 through 19,920 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862198
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    OK for”the most  popular”

    Strong mention first

    primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):

    first on the list:

    Matthew 1:22

    22
    touto de olon gegonen ina plhrwqh to rhqen upo tou kuriou dia tou profhtou legontoV
    1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

    #862199
    Lightenup
    Participant

    YHWH of hosts sends YHWH=God’s word. One serves the other. The Lord of lords serves the God of gods, both are inter-dependently our one God not independently as if two gods. They are both perfect and both eternal yet different in relationship…one is the father and one is the son. That perfect relationship is demonstrated perfectly from the beginning as one submits to the other since the relationship is true father/son. A perfect son would cease from being perfect if he did not submit to his perfect father. A perfect son’s submission does not imply any type of weakness or lack of wisdom but actually implies strength and wisdom. I a human were to completely be submissive to God, that would be reckoned to to him/her as their wisdom and strength.

    Blessings, LU

    #862201
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  IN THE BIGINNING WAS “THE WORD” AND “THE WORD” WAS            WITH THE GOD AND “THE WORD “WAS GOD.

    That’s right, B!  You understand how the definite article was used there by John – who was proficient in the subtleties of the Greek tongue.  What does it mean that John used the definite article once in front of the word “god” – but not the second time?  “The word was with THE god, and god was the word”.  Not “and THE god was the word”, right?  What does that mean?  It is significant because koine Greek didn’t use an indefinite article like we do in English.  Neither did the Hebrew or Aramaic languages for that matter.  So every single time in the Bible that we read “a” or “an” in English – it was added by a translator so that the words make sense to English speaking people.  Understand?  So when John used the definite article for the first “god”, it means he was telling us that the word was with THE God.  But his omission of the article in the second instance of “god” tells us that the word wasn’t THE God… but A god.  That is the proper translation of John 1:1.

    Did you know that the first language that translated the Greek NT and that uses an indefinite article was the Coptic language?  Did you know they translated John 1:1 as “the word was with the god, and the word was a god”?

    Now see this, from the 25 Trinitarian Bible scholars who translated the NET Bible…

    Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite.

    Did you understand that?  In short… even though the Greek language used a definite article and John would have used it if he intended to say the word was THE god, a man named Colwell decided that we can just add the definite article that the writer omitted if it serves our purpose.  So although John didn’t write that the word was THE god, Colwell wants to pretend that he did.  On the other hand, the Greek language did NOT use an indefinite article, and so we HAVE TO add those in when appropriate for an English translation.  So the bottom line is that the most natural translation of John 1:1c is “and the word was a god”.  That wording exists in hundreds of Bibles, and the only argument opponents have is, “but there is only ONE god!”.  Of course that is a faulty tradition that is rejected by many Bible teachings.  Greek grammar expert Origen wrote…

    We next notice John’s use of the article in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Logos, but to the name of God he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article when the name of God refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Logos is named God… 

    Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two Gods, and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked… The true God, then, is “The God.”

    So if it weren’t for the false notion that the Bible teaches of only one god, and for the false notion that God’s servant Jesus is also the very God he serves, all English translations would have, “and the Word was a god” – as it should be.

    The correct teaching is that the Word was with THE God in the beginning, and was himself a god.

     

    #862202
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    IN THE BIGINNING WAS “THE WORD” AND “THE WORD” WAS WITH THE GOD AND “THE WORD “WAS GOD.

    HERE IS THE TRUE WORD

    OF GOD NOT THE JODI’S WORDS

    WHICH ARE PERVERTED BY A SES SEDUCTOR SPIRIT THAT MISLEADS UNSETTLED SOULS…

    ME: 

    Before the world began God promised eternal life.  — that’s not my word, but God’s

    In the beginning God promised that a man would come and execute God’s purpose.  — that’s not my word, but God’s

    In the beginning God promised to place salvation in Zion for Israel His glory. — that’s not my word, but God’s

    In ancient of days God promised that one would come out of the tribe of Judah who would be a ruler over Israel.  –that’s not my word, but God’s

    Of David’s seed God according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: —that’s not my word, but God’s

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    We have life through a man who executed God’s purpose, this man was declared by God from the beginning in God’s word.

    The one who God gives the works of His hands to, for him to have dominion over, is a HUMAN BEING, that is God’s WORD, not mine Berean.

    This is the SAME HUMAN BEING who God declared from the beginning would one day come. God made all things as He says by himself, ALONE and He would have done so FOR the very HUMAN BEING He had promised to give it to!!!

    #862203
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: 1223

    dia
    dia
    dee-ah ‘

    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through

    What if we sounded all those

    passages where there’s the word “dia”

    I’ve already checked a few of them

    Good point.  I’d guess that the vast majority of them would be translated as “through” – which is the most common meaning of the Greek word “dia”.  Even the ones translated as “by” actually mean “through”.  For example, “He sent it BY mail” = “He sent it THROUGH mail”.

    #862204
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Good list of “dia” passages, Berean. Keep up the good work!

    LU

    #862205
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Mike

    You

    The correct teaching is that the Word was with THE God at the beginning, and was himself a god.

    Me

    no Mike i definitely disagree with that .

    The Son of God was GOD OR IF YOU PREFERRE OF THE SAME NATURE AS GOD (THE FATHER) Just as a human son is of the same nature as his human father.

    God  bless

    #862206
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    It is absolute truth to say that God is Life.

    It is absolute truth to say that in the Beginning God’s WORD was a promise of eternal LIFE.

    It is absolute truth to say that in the Beginning was God’s WORD that a man would come to execute His purpose.

    It is absolute truth to say that a man who could do nothing of himself brought us life through obeying God going to the cross shedding his blood, and that this was the work that God gave Jesus of Nazareth to do upon sending him out after he had been anointed with God’s Spirit in full measure.

    It is absolute truth to say that the man approved of God, Jesus of Nazareth, was slain according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

    Applying all this together the below is thus absolute TRUTH,

    In the beginning was God’s WORD of LIFE, and that WORD was unto God, and that WORD was God, for God is LIFE.

    In the beginning was God’s WORD of a man to come who would execute God’s WORD of LIFE, by God’s foreknowledge he would be slain shedding his blood to bring us salvation.

    God’s WORD from the beginning of LIFE, is itself the WORD of this man being slain. 

     

    #862207
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike, the reason the article is not there for the second theos in John 1:1 is because of a Greek grammar reason. When there are two words in one clause written in the nominative case, the Greek word that has the article is the word that does the action, the Greek word that doesn’t have the article does not do the action “was” in this case. The Word was…the “Word” is doing the action of “was” and we know that because it has the article. This is not about making a distinction as to a bigger theos and a smaller theos. The context shows two distinct theos. The absence of the article with the second theos is due to grammar, not lowering the status of the second. You do realize that God the Father is written in sentences without the article when it calls Him “God” at times, right. This happens in the same first chapter of John as the verse that has the article in John 1:1.

    John 1:18 is an example of this in the first clause: No one has seen God at any time… Do you see that it doesn’t say “no one has seen THE God at any time”? According to you, should that be translated as “no one has seen a god at any time”?

    LU

    #862208
    Lightenup
    Participant

    It is absolute truth to say that YHWH of hosts sends YHWH.

    #862209
    Berean
    Participant

     

    5
    oi de eipon autw en bhqleem thV ioudaiaV outwV gar gegraptai dia tou profhtou
    2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

    Jodi

     

    You

    Apply God’s word with God’s word and the truth should be obvious.

    Our heavenly Father’s word from the beginning was that a man was going to come and execute God’s purpose which was salvation and life.

    Our heavenly Father’s word was that He created all things alone, by himself, and that He promised to give a HUMAN BEING dominion overall that He created.

    Our heavenly Father’s word was of a man to come who would shed his blood to bring forth salvation, and because he obeyed God’s command unto his death, God promised to give him a portion with the great, and have him divide the spoil with the mighty.

    Apply God’s word with God’s word, such is how truth is established.  When God made all things by Himself He would be doing so BY REASON OF and FOR the very man who He said that He was going to give it to. That man would bring forth salvation and life, so without this man God would not have made the worlds.

    Bearan this is a TRUTH I don’t see how anyone can possibly deny, even if it does not fit their current doctrine of beliefs.

    Our heavenly Father SPOKE IT in the beginning, He purposed it and said that He would do it.

     

     

    Me

    don’t worry about it.
    You apply yourself to do it

     

    #862210
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Jesus is said to be flesh and bone not flesh and blood.

    Flesh and bone is just the more popular Greek idiom, as compared to our more popular version, “flesh and blood”.  They both mean the same thing… flesh, blood, bone, muscle, nerves, heart, teeth, eyes, etc.

    But are you suggesting that Jesus was raised from the grave as a bloodless human being?

    #862211
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Luke 3:23 King James Bible
    And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…

    The passage is telling you that Jesus IS the son of Joseph, and it is telling you that the people thought he was the son of Joseph.  That which the people thought he was he was.

     

     

    #862212
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Mathew15

    15
    kai hn ekei ewV thV teleuthV hrwdou ina plhrwqh to rhqen upo tou kuriou dia tou profhtou legontoV ex aiguptou ekalesa ton uion mou

    2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

    #862213
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  …the Greek word that has the article is the word that does the action…

    “and the word was with the god”.  What action is “the god” performing here?

    Kathi:  The context shows two distinct theos. 

    Correct.  There are two completely different gods mentioned in John 1:1.  John only calls one of them “THE god”.  So as Origen concludes – after spelling out that John knew what he was doing by using the definite article on only one of the gods, “the true God then, is THE God.”

    Origen goes on to talk about how both of the gods are equal in this manner and that manner – but none of that comes from scripture.  What does come from scripture is that John wrote about two gods, one of whom was with THE God in the beginning.

    Kathi, what are your thoughts on the prayer in Acts 4?   The apostles clearly prayed to the ONE who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them… and then mentioned Jesus as the holy servant OF that ONE.

    Who created everything?  Who is the servant of He who created everything?  No philosophical mumble-jumble please.  Just a scriptural answer to that particular prayer.

    #862214
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Mathew 2:23
    23
    kai elqwn katwkhsen eiV polin legomenhn nazaret opwV plhrwqh to rhqen dia twn profhtwn oti nazwraioV klhqhsetai
    2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

     

    😊

     

    #862215
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike, the God of gods (Father) created everything through the Lord of lords (Son). YHWH is both.

    #862216
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Did that make the OO change, well not in type or function or character.

    But it did change, right?  You said so twice.  So does God change?  Did He change from one thing to another in the beginning?

    Kathi:  …there is one cell in existence before it becomes two. That one cell that first existed reproduced into a second, that is true.

    Then it matters not what you imagine about substance, right?  Because the fact remains that, even in your flawed analogy, there is one in existence first, and then LATER, that one performs certain actions to bring forth another that didn’t previously exist.  I.e.: God existed without Jesus. God LATER brought Jesus forth into existence.

    Kathi:  Number 5, yes you end up with two completely identical entities, indicating that YHWH the God of gods and YHWH, the Lord of lords are completely identical in every single way except with different relationships to each other. 

    Your words are at odds with each other.  “Completely identical” negates “except“. 😉  That being said, please explain how two completely identical entities can have a different relationship with each other.  If OO was a combination of everything that makes up the Father and the Son, and the second entity is a completely identical combination of everything that makes up the Father and the Son, then you are necessarily left with two completely identical Father/Son combination beings – with ZERO difference between them except for that there was once only one of them, and now there are two of them.  So with ZERO difference, the Father is actually a combo of Father and Son to this very day… and the Son is actually an identical combo of Father and Son to this very day.  Is that really what you think the scriptures teach?

    #862217
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Hi Mike

    You

    The correct teaching is that the Word was with THE God at the beginning, and was himself a god.

    Me

    no Mike i definitely disagree with that .

    The Son of God was GOD OR IF YOU PREFERRE OF THE SAME NATURE AS GOD (THE FATHER) Just as a human son is of the same nature as his human father.

    Well, the Son is a god who is NOT the Father God, right?  Therefore, a different god.  Only one of them is called the Most High God OF gods, right?  Only one of them is the God OF the other one, right?  So from those scriptural teachings we know that Jesus is a god – but not the Most High God of gods who is his own God, right?  Therefore a lesser god than his and our God, right?

    As for nature, it depends.  Sons of men have the nature of their parents.  But men can create many things that don’t have any human nature at all, right?  God created mosquitoes too, right?  Do mosquitoes have the nature of God?  I wouldn’t say so, would you?  So if God can create living things that don’t have His nature, then what makes you think His first creation, Jesus, must necessarily have His nature?

    That being said, I have no problem with Jesus having the nature of God.  God is spirit, and all of God’s spirit sons, including Jesus, Satan, Michael, and Gabriel, have that same spirit nature, right?

    #862218
    Lightenup
    Participant

    I asked all members here for the answer to these “quiz” questions and Mike was the only one to answer. Yeah Mike!

    Here are the quiz questions and Mike’s answer to them:

     

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?

    2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

     

    Mike’s answer: : Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

     

    The second part of the “quiz” asks this:

    Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:

    “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

     

    Mike’s answer: Both refer to “the LORD”.

    Thank you so much Mike for taking that challenge. When you read the passages as they are together, in a fuller context, you will see that YHWH (the LORD) of hosts sends the YHWH (the LORD).

    Zechariah 2:

    10“Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    The LORD will dwell in the midst of the daughter of Zion, the LORD is someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords…two persons interdependently (not independently) the fullness of one YHWH.

    I hope you can see this now. LU

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