John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,821 through 19,840 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #851052
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #851053
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.

    LIES!

    JESUS NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS NOT SPIRIT

    HE CONFIRMED THAT

    THOUGH HE IS A SPIRIT HE ALSO HAS

    FLESH AND BONES

    Luke 39:See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.

    Genesis 18:

    And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.

    Sarah Laughs at the Promise

    9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #851054
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

     

    #851064
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.  That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed.  So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”.  And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.

    Secondly, lose the “parent/offspring” terminology.  For your analogy to be considered valid, we must have a FATHER and a SON – because that is the relationship both Jesus and his God have described.

    Thirdly, cells don’t begin with a fixed amount of “substance” that then gets cut in half when they separate – leaving each cell with only half of the substance the original one started with.  More substance is always being generated, and when enough NEW substance is produced, the cell can divide, making a new cell out of that new substance.  So not even the substance of the original cell and the new cell is the same age.

    My response:

    Suffice it to say that you have not looked at the cell reproduction videos that I linked you to or if you did look, you need to revisit them because you are not correct in your thinking that one of the two identical cells has new substance in it while the other has original substance in it. That is not how it works. The original cell becomes two distinct cells,  and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them, also each distinct cell contains half of the original cell’s nucleus. Each distinct cell ends up with the same substance within them, part original and part newly made.

    Here are the videos once again:

    DNA Replication   https://youtu.be/TNKWgcFPHqw

    Binary Fission   https://youtu.be/OAcz-tFGY0Y

    I understand that this is a concept that gets you thinking about a topic you probably barely touched on in high school. I have had a while to absorb the info. Take your time, mull it over for awhile. I believe that you will see it differently than the way you have been. This cell theory has probably been one of my biggest “AH HA” moments since I have been studying the deity of Christ, at least 27 years. It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.

    Stay well, LU

    #851065
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    Yes Jeremiah 33 is about Jesus

    Compare with Zachariah 3

    [8] Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

    There is only one God who can guide you, if you want to, and it is YAHWEH who is above all.
    Why do you ask me such questions?

     

    #851068
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Mike for addressing the quiz with this answer:

    Lightenup:  And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
    MIke answer: Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    Here is the quiz being referred to:

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?

    2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

    Thanks for answering that Mike. I have another quiz here:

    Read this all by itself without its context and then answer the question:

    “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

    Please answer this, there is a reason and it’s good. LU

    #851069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: As for John 1:3, unless the Word himself and the Word’s God were two of the “all things” that were made through the Word, then “other” is clearly intended – just as it was intended in 1 Cor 15:27. The only difference in the two is that John didn’t add the obvious disclaimer spelling this out, while Paul did.

    The context of John 1: 1-3 establishes the existence of the Word and the God that the Word was with in the beginning. Then verse three refers to everything that was made was made through the Word. So, before everything was made through the Word, nothing was made. The eternal Father and eternal Son were not made otherwise they would not be eternal. The word “other” would change the verse to imply that the Father and/or the Word were made. The word “other” is clearly not there because the Father and the Word were not made, they were eternal. You want to put “other” there because you don’t believe that the Son can be eternal. He is the same age as his Father and shares the name of Jehovah.

    Goodnight my friend, LU.

    #851073
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

    BACK TO SQUARE ONE AGAIN: WITH EVERY RESPECT:

    CARNAL MINDED REASONING

     

    . for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as ye see me have. (despite a spirit, the fact that JESUS came through walls)

    Jodi answer:

    If for the sake of our argument,

    THE ROMANS ENTERED AND CUT JESUS’ HEAD OFF 

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF

    JESUS COULD ONLY DIE ONCE!

    Genesis 18:3

    And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.

    Sarah Laughs at the Promise

    9And when they had eaten, they said to him: Where is Sara thy wife? He answered: Lo she is in the tent.

     

    Jodi the above is a clear picture that

    though THE LORD IN THREE PERSONS 

    PRESENTED HIMSELF AS HUMANS, IN ACTUAL FACT 

    THE LORD WAS NOT IN THE AUTHENTIC HUMAN CURSED MORTAL SATANIC FLESH! believe it or not it’s your problem.

    HE WAS IN HIS OWN GENUINE SUBSTANCE AS 

    FLESH

    LIKE ADAM WAS ON HIS CREATION.

    THE FLESH BODY WE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WOULD POSSESS:

    THE NEW JERUSALEM

     

    John 10:9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in,

    he shall be saved:

    and he shall go in ( SPIRIT, TO CREATE IN TOTAL BLISS)

    and go out, (FLESH TO LIVE IN THE NEW WORLD)and

    shall find pastures. ( REMAINS IN TOTAL BLISS IN THE SPIRIT)

     

    John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:

    that of all that he hath given me, (OUT OF HIS SUBSTANCE, BOTH SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL)

    I should lose nothing; (DESPITE HE DIED)

    but should raise it up again in the last day. (PRECISELY IN THE LAST DAY IN THIS WORLD ON HIS DEATH THE CROSS, GLORIFIED BOTH IN

     

    SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST, and FLESH BODY: IN “THE WORD” 

    John4:And he that reapeth (THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD) receiveth wages and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he (“THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN)that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. (ON THE CROSS IN ONE GLORY) 37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man (THE SON OF MAN)that soweth, and it is another(THE SON OF GOD) that reapeth.

    Matthew 13:36 Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good seed is

    the Son of man. 

     

    THUS JESUS GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS

    TWO IN ONE  SPIRITUAL/FLESH BODY   in the FATHER’S substance  Hebrews 1:3

     

    JESUS CHRIST 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #851075
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Creation is created by God through his Word. The Word was with God. God created all through the Son of God. The son came from the Father. Begotten of the Father was he. The only one. Between God and man.

    #851076
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen T8

    That’s the lesson of Hebrews 1.

    such as Colossians 1 and John 1.

     

    #851077
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: So how do you address the fact that Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the FLESH, where David foresaw that his flesh would not see decay?

    Jesus’ flesh didn’t see decay.

    Jodi:  He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones.

    He was not a spirit at that time, but still had flesh and bones.  He was raised from the dead in the same non-decayed flesh body in which he died.  He had 40 more days of work to do on earth in the flesh before he ascended to heaven.  But could he enter the Kingdom of God in heaven as flesh and bone?  He himself told us no.  He told us that in the resurrection, we’d be like the angels.  Angels aren’t flesh creatures.  Paul later went into great detail about how the bodies of those whose dwelling would be in heaven would be changed from flesh to spirit. (1 Cor 15)

    Jodi:  The people who witnessed him ascend were told that same Jesus would descend.

    And it will be the same Jesus who comes on the clouds.  When Jesus was transfigured, he was still the same Jesus.  But God was giving those apostles a glimpse of what this same Jesus would look like when he was restored to his former glory in heaven.

    Jodi:  He can most certainly provide Mary’s egg with the needed chromosomes equating to Joseph’s sperm.  The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7 has NOTHING to do with God sending down a spirit son to be a man, it has nothing to do with God creating a one of a kind being…

    You words appear to contradict themselves, Jodi.  What other human being has chromosomes equating to their flesh father’s sperm that were personally made and inserted by God?  Whether he preexisted or not, you can’t deny that – even before God’s Spirit descended upon him as his baptism – Jesus of Nazareth was already a one of a kind being.  And if you can accept that scriptural teaching, then the number of ways in which he was a one of a kind being no longer matter to the bottom line.

    And remember, I didn’t just wake up one day and WANT Jesus to have preexisted his time on earth.  I gleaned this information directly from many different scriptures… which we have just begun to discuss.

     

    #851078
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  But none of them say that Jesus was made, sorry.

    They actually do when you allow the scriptures to teach you instead of the other way around.

    “the firstborn of every creature” 

    “the beginning of the creation by God”

    “God created me as the first of his works”

    “before the mountains were made, I was given birth”

    “his origin is from ancient times, days of old”

    “today I have begotten a son”

    “I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God”

    “Lord, you alone created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them… protect us by the name of your holy servant Jesus”

     

    Fellow Christians, these scriptures make it hard to deny that Jesus was not only made by his and our God, Jehovah… but that he was the first thing made by Jehovah.  Jesus is God’s first creation, which means he existed long before God sent him to be born of a woman on earth.

    #851079
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Hi Mike,

    YOU: Or from His holy servant Jesus,

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

    Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
    In the above Mike

    WHO SERVES WHO?

    Well, let’s sort it out then.  Pharaoh once bestowed great honor, authority and riches on Joseph, right?  He gave Joseph his signet ring, and decreed that none was greater than Joseph in the entire land of Egypt – save Pharaoh himself, right?  So did Pharaoh’s act of bestowing great things on Joseph imply that Pharaoh was now a servant of Joseph?  Did his generous actions equate to Pharaoh “serving” Joseph – as if he was Joseph’s subordinate?

    What say you?   Was it a case of the master giving good things to his servant?  Or was it a case of the servant giving good things to his master?

    #851080
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..You completely ignored the scripture I posted, as if it weren’t in the scriptures. How can we ever have to have a honest dialogue if you constantly do that. We should all deal with scriptures others post IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #851081
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …I would like to know about Kerwin also, I wonder if anyone knows , he had a sever kidney problem, I tride to search for him but was unable to find him.  Would love to know if he is OK .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #851082
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    with -para, from, of 

    glorify though me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had of thee before the world was.

    Okay, but it’s the same phrase both times… “glorify me para you with the glory I had para you…”.  You can choose to say the latter “para” means “from” out of personal preference, but you can’t deny that Jesus is still saying that HE had glory with or from God before the world was, right?  It’s not “with the glory you’ve been holding for me” since before the world was, right?  Rather, it’s “with the glory I HAD before the world was.  Seems clear enough to me that the conscious entity Jesus is talking to his God about a glory that the conscious entity Jesus had before the world was.

    Jodi:  Mike it doesn’t make sense to me at all that God needed to send down an only begotten son to be a man, for then to have that man be able to do nothing of himself.

    Even when Jesus was existing alongside his God before the world was, he could do nothing of himself.  Now, being back at the right hand of his God with all kinds of power bestowed upon him, he can still do nothing of himself.  Not one creature in the history of the world can do anything of themselves – Jesus included.  Any power that you, I, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, or Jesus has comes from the Most High God.  We live by a loan of God’s spirit – which returns to Him when we die.  Man cannot take one step without power given to him by God.  So none of us can ever do a single thing of ourselves – whether or not we preexisted in heaven before becoming a human being.

    Jodi:  Scripture does not tell me that Jesus received the Spirit because he was already a Son of God having been sent to earth. Scripture tells me that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing and was sent, as it was a promise from God to be fulfilled in the son of Jesse.

    Scripture actually tells you both of those things… but you only accept one of them. 😉  I’ll wait for your response about John 17:5.  Then maybe we can discuss another scripture.

    Jodi:  This word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus spoken by the prophet Isaiah, I believe was indeed God’s word before the world began.

    That’s almost how I’d word it too.  Except this particular “Word of God” is a title given to God’s preeminent spokesman.  The king of ancient Abyssinia had a spokesman called “Kal Hatze” – which means “the word of the king”.  In Abyssinia, the subjects would air their complaints, concerns and requests to “The Word of the King”, and he would then pass them on to the King.  The King would pass his answer on to “The Word of the King”, and he would relay the King’s words back to the subjects.  The subjects never had a direct audience with the King himself.  It was always passed through this “mediator”, who had as his title “The Word of the King”.  Sound familiar?

    Jesus has the title “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman, and a mediator between us and God.  But we can talk in much more depth about that when we talk about John 1.  Right now, I’ll wait to hear your thoughts about my comments on John 17:5.

     

    #851083
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Hi Carmel,

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus is saying directly that he is not a spirit. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus has flesh and bones thus he makes the point that he is not a spirit.

    Agreed.

    #851084
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…. you say you believe in the preexistence of Jesus. Can you produce any scriptures that say he was alive before his existence on this earth, as a human being?

    I am not talking about prophetic scriptures of him comming into his existence, but actual scriptures that show any activity or  action of him before berth on this earth.    Also please give us any reason for him to have previously existed , what would that demonstrate for humanity, if he was already a perfect being , how could he ever say “to him that overcomes “even as,  I have”,  if in fact he was already perfect from the very beginning,  what did he have to overcome “even as” we do?    the words “even as I have” makes that person exactly the same as those he is addressing.

    Also what kind of example would a preexisting being,  living in a preexisting  state of existence of any kind,  be to us?   What great purpose or example would that be?  I believe giving that kind of advantage over us, goes against the whole purpose of the existence of Jesus in the first place. I also believe the only advantage the man Jesus had was he was forordained, to be the only human being to have never sinned, because  then that would given him  the right to atone for the rest of human kind. So he had to be “exactly” like us in “every” way, with out exception.  

    SATAN’S PLAN, from the get go , was to make Jesus appear different then we are. He accomplished this by turning “image” of , the man Jesus into a GOD.  Why?,   because that belife, would then seperates him from us, this “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, was instigated by Satan himself,  by the “GNOSTIC’S “,  at the very time of the apostles Paul and John.  Those were the ones John coined as the ANTICHRISTS,  because they turned a ordinary flesh and blood  human being in to a GOD.

    So today we don’t have  this any longer,  “unto us there is “one” God and one mediator between God and men , “the MAN” Jesus Christ. 

    We have today instead,  three Gods, and one is a mediator between men and the God, the God Jesus Christ, but wate he can’t be a Christ because he was already a God , why would a God need to be anointed by a God?   That is exactly why John coined them, “anti-anointers” or antichrists.  They simply did not believe Jesus as a God needed to be anointed with anything, Seening he  was already a God.  With that understanding go read what I wrote on “2ths2” and it should clearly show how “the man of sin” , is not a real person,  but a “false image” of Jesus himself being a God,  created by Satan himself and nearly all of Christanity has fallen for “the big lie” about Jesus himself. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

     

    #851085
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: The original cell becomes two distinct cells,  and BOTH distinct cells equally have original and new substance within them…

    So then God changed?  He has grown new substance that He didn’t have previously, and so his makeup is now a mixture of what He used to be – and some new substance that wasn’t there before?

    Kathi:  It gave me a real life example of a true father and son relationship where the father and son are the same age.

    But it’s not actually a “real life example” at all.  First of all, cells aren’t sentient beings – which should go without saying.  Nor are fathers and sons ever identical – even in the case of Jesus and his God Jehovah.  But you still keep avoiding the point I keep making…

    As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.  That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed.  So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”.  And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.

    In your scenario, was there a time when only ONE cell existed?  Yes.  So if there ever comes a time when a second cell exists, that original cell will always be older than the second one.  Always.

    In your scenario, is the second cell brought forth into existence as the result of something the first cell did?  Yes.  So the second cell will always owe its very existence to the first cell.  In fact, you could say that the first cell was the God of the second cell, since #1 created #2.

    Understand?  First there was only ONE.  Then that one created a DIFFERENT one.  And if that different one was completely identical, then the Father and the Son are completely identical.  Is that your claim?

    And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son.  So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son.  Is that your claim?

    There are many reasons your cell analogy doesn’t work – not the least of which is that God is not a cell that divides into an identical copy of Himself.  😎

    #851086
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Yes Jeremiah 33 is about Jesus.

    Jeremiah 33:16

    In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely, and this is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

    Please explain.  Is the city of Jerusalem actually Jesus?  I don’t get it.

Viewing 20 posts - 19,821 through 19,840 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account