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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • March 30, 2020 at 6:13 am#851087
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people.

    Who does the “I” and “My” refer to?

    Both refer to “the LORD”.

    March 30, 2020 at 6:26 am#851088
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  The eternal Father and eternal Son were not made otherwise they would not be eternal.

    There is no “eternal Son” mentioned in any scripture. Even your cell analogy makes it clear that at first there was just ONE, and then later that one created a DIFFERENT one.  Not to mention that the very terms “Father” and “Son” that Jesus and his God use to describe themselves makes is clear that one is not only before the other, but created the other.  That’s how fathers and sons work.

    Let’s try this one…

    “Adam was with God in the beginning.  Through him all men were made, and without him no man was made that has been made.”

    Is that a true statement?

    March 30, 2020 at 6:30 am#851089
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike …I would like to know about Kerwin also, I wonder if anyone knows , he had a sever kidney problem, I tride to search for him but was unable to find him.  Would love to know if he is OK .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    That’s too bad.  He loved this forum, so since he’s no longer here, I’ll assume he’s gone to sleep with his fathers.

    March 30, 2020 at 6:32 am#851090
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…. you say you believe in the preexistence of Jesus. Can you produce any scriptures that say he was alive before his existence on this earth, as a human being?

    Absolutely… lots of them.  Jodi and I have just begun to discuss the first one I brought up… John 17:5.

    March 30, 2020 at 7:26 am#851091
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Well, let’s sort it out then.  Pharaoh once bestowed great honor, authority and riches on Joseph, right?  He gave Joseph his signet ring, and decreed that none was greater than Joseph in the entire land of Egypt – save Pharaoh himself, right?  So did Pharaoh’s act of bestowing great things on Joseph

    imply that Pharaoh was now a servant of Joseph? 

    ME: Well, let’s sort it out then.

    NO MIKE IT IS YOUR CORRUPTED CONCLUSIONS, TO JUSTIFY YOUR

    IMPLICATIONS!

    Did his generous actions equate to Pharaoh “serving” Joseph – as if he was Joseph’s subordinate?

    AGAIN NO! read:31 And Joseph said to his brethren, and to all his father’s house: I will go up, and will tell Pharao, and will say to him:

    My brethren, and my father’s house, that were in the land of Chanaan, are come to me: 32And the men are shepherds, and their occupation is to feed cattle; their flocks, and herds, and all they have, they have brought with them. 33And when he shall call you, and shall say: What is your occupation? 34You shall answer: We, thy servants, are shepherds, from our infancy until now, both we and our fathers. And this you shall say, that you may dwell in the land of Gessen, because the Egyptians have all shepherds in abomination.

    Genesis 47:1Then Joseph went in and told Pharao, saying:

    My father and brethren, their sheep and their herds, and all that they possess, are come out of the land of Chanaan: and behold they stay in the land of Gessen. 2Five men also, the last of his brethren, he presented before the king: 3And he asked them: What is your occupation? They answered: We, thy servants, are shepherds, both we and our fathers. 4We are come to sojourn in thy land, because there is no grass for the flocks of thy servants, the famine being very grievous in the land of Chanaan: and we pray thee to give orders that we thy servants may be in the land of Gessen.

    5The king therefore said to Joseph: Thy father and thy brethren are come to thee. 6The land of Egypt is before thee: and make them dwell in the best place, and give them the land of Gessen. And if thou knowest that there are industrious men among them, make them rulers over my cattle.

    The above confirms Mike, that the Pharao, was

    IN FULL CONTROL AND HE RULED EGYPT EVEN OVER JOSEPH.

    Now read and discern the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

    Matthew 28: And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    THE FATHER MIKE IS IN HIS MOST COMFORTABLE REST. READ MORE AND ACCEPT 

    THE PURE TRUTH

    John14:13 Because I go to the Father:

    and whatsoever you shall ask the Father  ( WHO MIKE IS SERVING WHO? ALSO THE FATHER NOW EQUATES JOSEPH)

    in my name, (JESUS EQUATES THE PHARAO: ABSOLUTE RULER:)

    Talking to the Father directly SIMPLY ignores us. JESUS, THE SON OF MAN BECAME GODMAN ON EARTH not the Father! Jesus is the PROPRIETOR, GOD and FATHER of the human race IN FLESH. John20:17! Jesus was THE MAN BORN AGAIN ON HIS RESURRECTION, embodied in the entire human race all in Him, John3:3, 1Peter 1-4
    John 5:27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is THE SON OF MAN.

    that will I do:     ( JESUS NOW EQUATES THE PHARAO) 

    that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ( Genesis 41:40Thou shalt be over my house, and at the commandment of thy mouth all the people shall obey: only in the kingly throne will

    I be above thee. 

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE  GOD THE FATHER EQUATES THE ABOVE IN RELATION THE JESUS?

    ( Sit on my right hand, until

    I (GOD ALMIGHTY SERVES YOU AND ) make thy enemies thy footstool?)

    WHO MIKE IS SERVING WHO? KEEP ON READING:

    14If you shall ask me anything

    in my name, (JESUS)

    that I will do. ( WHERE IS THE FATHER MIKE? )

    What say you?   Was it a case of the master giving good things to his servant?  Or was it a case of the servant giving good things to his master?

     

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father.

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and

    to whom the Son (in his embodiment, in his personality) will reveal him.

    THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING BY HIMSELF REGARDING 

    THE HUMAN PROCESS, unless you accept THE FACT that

    THE FATHER IS THE SON, and THE SON IS THE FATHER:

     

    THUS THE PROBLEM MIKE IS THAT

    YOU, JODI, and GENE 

    DONT KNOW WHO THE MASTER IS.

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

    Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

    I REPEAT: In the above Mike

    WHO SERVES WHO?
    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 30, 2020 at 7:37 am#851092
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hello t8, Berean, and All,

    We know that all scripture connects together giving us truth of God’s word. I’d also like to acknowledge that some scriptures directly connect with other scriptures where they share the same specific truth. Furthermore I’d like to acknowledge that if one does not apply a specific truth to other passages such can very well lead to the misinterpretation of other passages.

    What does the below passage tell us? I hope that we can agree on that which it does say. Then I hope that we can find another specific passage that it directly correlates to, agreeing that they share the same specific truth.

    Isaiah 46:9-13 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Can we AGREE that the above states that God declared from the beginning things that are not yet done and that what He spoke in the beginning He was sure to bring to pass in the future?

    Can we AGREE that from the beginning what God spoke that would in the future come to pass was the calling of a man to execute God’s purpose, and that purpose declared from the beginning was to bring righteousness and salvation?

    You may want to read all of Matthew 25, but below I have condensed what I see directly correlates to Isaiah 46.

    Matthew 25:13-14 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods…31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:…45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    In the above do we see a man coming executing God’s purpose where the end is the righteous receiving eternal life?

    In the above do we see that this was prepared and thus of God’s purpose from the foundation of the world?

    Can we agree that we are given the same truth in Isaiah 46 and that of Matthew 25?

    God’s word from the beginning was not only that of righteousness and life but also that He would bring it to pass through a man. Now Titus tells us that eternal life was promised by God specifically even before the world even began.

    Yes or No?

    God is righteousness and life?

    God’s word from the beginning was righteousness and life?

    God’s word from the beginning was a man who in him is life?

    Unto God in the beginning was the word of life and the word of a man in whom is life, both words of God agree as one and the same for as without the man there is no life, but without the purpose of the life there would be no man?

    If you said YES to all 4 then the below statements should likewise be read as the truth of God.

    Without the purpose of life, there would be no point for God to create heaven and earth and all things therein. Without the man that brings forth God’s purpose of life likewise nothing would have been made that was made. As the purpose of creation is life which consists through this man, God thus would be creating all things by reason of this man who is the life.

    In the beginning was the word (life), and the word (life) was unto God, and the word was God as God is life. He was in the beginning unto God as you don’t have the word of life without the word of the man who in him is the life.

    Does John chapter 1 speak further of this man who is the life? 

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 

    John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh A MAN which is preferred (Ginomai, to arise, become) before (Emprosthen, in the presence of) me: for he was before (protos, first in time OR first in RANK) me.

    This is he of whom I said, after me cometh a MAN which is to ARISE/BECOME in thy presence, for he is greater than me.

    John’s record is that he is a witnesses to prophecy fulfilled, the Son of Man Jesus BECOMES the Son of God!

    John 32:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John 45:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. ..49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him,Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    The prophet Nathan told David, “11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.”

     John 1 speaks of the LIGHT, which is direct prophecy of Isaiah 42 and 45, which concerns a Son of Man having God’s Spirit abode upon him, being raised up in righteousness having God direct all his ways for him to be for a LIGHT, which is a LIGHT that brings LIFE. 

    March 30, 2020 at 8:13 am#851093
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Please answer:

    Did you watch the videos? Can you admit that the videos demonstrate how there starts out one cell and from within the one cell, the reproductive process begins which causes a two stranded DNA to “unzip” and one side of the strand goes to the left of the cell and one strand goes to the right, the nucleus divides and also separates to the right and to the left, the single DNA strands both, through their own strand,  develop a complementary strand that they are attached to?

    Thank you so much Mike for the discussion so far.

    God bless, LU

    March 30, 2020 at 9:49 am#851094
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    I’m gonna call the original cell “The Original Organism” (OO) which in this original cell analogy, represents the eternal God in the fullest sense for the sake of trying to better understand how, from one eternally existing being, there exists one Father Organism (FO) AND His one and only Son Organism (SO) where the Son is the exact representation of his Father and where the SO comes out of the FO and the SO is sent by the FO.

    That is the main purpose of examining the cell asexual reproduction process…to better understand the origin of the relationship of God as the Father with his own Son. If we can better understand that, then we can test scripture to that and wrestle with thoughts as they evolve into understanding and ultimately, truth. Truth about the Father/Son relationship…it is a worthy goal.

    Now to one of your many questions that is waiting for my answer:

    Mike asks: And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son. So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son. Is that your claim?

    My answer: The OO, before asexual reproduction begins, is one living organism. The OO (as if the OO has a mind) decided to begin asexual reproduction. At that moment, the OO begins changing from one living organism to becoming two distinct living organisms. Since the process is asexual reproduction, both of the organisms will be replicas of the OO EXCEPT both will have one original DNA strand and one new complimentary DNA strand, therefore neither the FO or the SO are exactly what the OO was. The process of asexual reproduction changed the OO into a FO and a SO. THE OO did change. The fullness of God became FO and SO, no longer OO. No longer one person with the fullness of deity but two persons with the fullness of deity, interdependently existing and working.

    When the OO became the FO and SO, the OO in it’s original condition changed, not through a character change or a type change but in a relationship change. The OO was no longer one living organism but two distinct living organisms. In other words, God in his fullest sense (the OO before asexual reproduction) became God in his relationship sense after asexual reproduction.

    From what I understand about God…the OO (God in his fullest sense), in order to create, needed to become able to redeem his future creation if necessary since we have a free will by design. That demonstrates a loving creator that wants to be loving to His creation. He is not a god that creates and walks away from that creation to fend for themselves but He is a God that lovingly cares for His creation. He (the OO) became “THEY” (FO and SO) to create , to love, and to redeem those who received His love. He could have remained the OO but then creation would not exist.

    The FO and the SO are interdependantly one God. The FO is God (together with His Son, not independant of His Son). The SO is God (together with His Father, not independant of His Father). There is no existing FO apart from the existence of the SO.

    I am guessing you would ask how to determine which of the two identical organisms was the father and which was the son. That would be a logical question at this point. Assuming that the OO had a mind that decided to prepare to create and thus begin the process of asexual reproduction in order to have two living organisms that worked interdependantly in order to create, my guess would be the FO carried the dominant side of the DNA strand that was in the OO as if there were a dominant side. The SO carried the other side of the DNA strand. Or something similar. That does not make one of the two identical organisms unequal in type or unequal in age or unequal in substance. In the DNA video, there is a difference in how each side of the unzipped DNA strands becomes complete again and distinct.

    That is gonna take some thought Mike, take your time.

    LU

    March 30, 2020 at 10:11 am#851095
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    But could he enter the Kingdom of God in heaven as flesh and bone?  He himself told us no.  He told us that in the resurrection, we’d be like the angels.  Angels aren’t flesh creatures.  Paul later went into great detail about how the bodies of those whose dwelling would be in heaven would be changed from flesh to spirit. (1 Cor 15)

    ME:

    Mike your understanding cannot be correct, because it works against other clear passages. Isaiah tells you that all flesh will come to worship God. David tells you he died having his flesh rest in hope. Ezekiel tells you that the dry bones shall live where God will give people a heart of flesh and by His Spirit He will cause those with a heart of flesh to walk in His ways, which Paul tells us that those that are Led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. We are also told by Paul that we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones.

    Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the flesh. There is NO scripture that says Jesus was changed into a spirit when he ascended to heaven, but we are given direct scripture that says it is the Son of a HUMAN who sits at God’s right hand.

    Scripture indeed does say that flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God. There are two truths that can be applied which does not cause other scriptures to then become out right lies. 

    #1 The resurrected Jesus says he was of flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. Scripture tells us that the blood is the life of the flesh, but we are promised that in us there will be a well of water springing up into everlasting life. We are also told that unless a human be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Humans that are born of water which springs up to everlasting life enter God’s kingdom, they no longer have life through blood, but have life through the water and by the Spirit of God!!!!

    #2 Man can do nothing of himself, his flesh and his blood profits him nothing, therefore flesh and blood is not capable of bringing forth the inheritance into the kingdom of God. The fruit of God’s Spirit is faith, and it is by that Spirit of faith working in us that we are able to inherit the kingdom of God. 

    NO scripture says that we are made like the angels in the means of being made into spirit beings. 

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection

    1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

    Natural – Psuchikos, belonging to the breath, the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

    Spiritual – Pneumatikos, belonging to the Divine Spirit, one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: …12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    said prior in 36, 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    What does Paul also say in Romans 8, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

    Mike, God made humans in His own image, you are told by Isaiah that He didnt make us in vain but to inhabit the earth seeking after him. His work is to perfect humans where they walk in his ways bearing all the fruits of His Spirit, love, peace, kindness, self control, temperance, etc..by such we live in His image. Paul doesn’t teach that which God sowed is changed into a different seed, but that seed itself God had prepared it for it’s own glory. We don’t become spirits, we become humans who God is all in, where His Spirit is directing all our ways.

    March 30, 2020 at 12:50 pm#851096
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:You words appear to contradict themselves, Jodi.  What other human being has chromosomes equating to their flesh father’s sperm that were personally made and inserted by God?  Whether he preexisted or not, you can’t deny that – even before God’s Spirit descended upon him as his baptism – Jesus of Nazareth was already a one of a kind being.  And if you can accept that scriptural teaching, then the number of ways in which he was a one of a kind being no longer matter to the bottom line

    ME: Hi Mike this is all very plain and simple for me, Jesus is said to be a HUMAN and I believe that he thus is a HUMAN, not a one of a kind being. If he is a one of a kind being he most certainly IS NOT a HUMAN and thus he would have never been called a human.

    But he IS called a human, so thus in no way is he a one of a kind being. He is most certainly the only mortal human who received of God’s Spirit not by measure on a certain day, and it just so happens that on that certain day God said upon the moment His Spirit came to abode upon him, “This is my beloved Son”, and then what do we just happen to read? THIS Son is THEN sent out into the world. 

    Fertilization: the process of union of two gametes (one from a female human and one from a male human) whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new human individual is initiated.

    A gamete is ONE haploid cell, and in order for God’s word to be true, that Jesus is the human he is said to be, Mary needed just ONE haploid cell to be unified with one of hers.

    Mary only had 23 chromosomes in her gamete, and in order to make a human she needed 23 more chromosomes, without them there is NO HUMAN. Also it is specifically by the male gamete that a baby’s sex is determined.  In order for God to bring forth the human Messiah that He promised and do so through a sign of a virgin birth, He had to provide Mary with a male gamete, just one haploid cell. Is that too much for our Almighty God, I think not!

    I do not get at all what you mean by me speaking a contradiction. Today a virgin can have a baby through artificial insemination, so the ability to be born of a virgin is actually no longer unique. Certain children were born in the bible we read through the direct intervention of God, so Jesus is not unique in that sense either. How Jesus is unique is that he is the only human born through God by the power of His Holy Spirit acting as an artificial inseminator so to speak, where He gave Mary a haploid cell of Joseph. How the conception of Jesus occurred is unique but that plays absolutely no role in what kind of being was conceived, he was conceived as a human being.  

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the GENESIS -ORIGIN of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations (GENEA -genealogy) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations ; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations ; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations (GENEA). 

    Seems very clear to me Mike,  Jesus is a son of David through the genes of Joseph.

    Below we have Jesus being the son of Joseph giving us a lineage all the way to Adam who is said to be the Son of God.

    Apply that to Acts 17 where our God is said to have made the world and all things therein also made from one blood all mankind, and how we are all his offspring, and how the man Jesus was appointed to judge the world in righteousness where we have assurance because God raised him from the dead. Jesus is a descendant of Adam directly linked through Joseph. Adam mind you was not begotten of God’s Spirit by full measure, however Jesus most certainly was, and as by one human came sin and death, by another human came righteousness and life.

    Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was thought) the son of Joseph,which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, …38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

     

     

     

    March 30, 2020 at 10:58 pm#861906
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What! Adding my own words?

    “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” Colossians 1:19

    and,

    “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” Colossians 2:9

    That doesn’t make him God any more than God in our hearts make us God.

    What we see here is Jesus Christ has the fullness. We know that he is greater than us.

    God is is head and Christ is our head.

    March 31, 2020 at 12:57 am#861911
    Berean
    Participant

    t8

    You

    “That doesn’t make him God any more than God in our hearts make us God.”

    me

    can you clarify your thinking because
    I have the impression that you don’t believe that Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, i.e. GOD.
    For to be GOD is to be omnipotent at least

     

    March 31, 2020 at 4:46 am#861914
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Caramel,

    You cannot rid the words that Jesus specifically says that he is not a spirit but of flesh and bones. Likewise you cannot rid the fact that a HUMAN is returning to sit on a throne according to the flesh being the root and offspring of David, where God is his Father ACCORDING to His Spirit being upon him.

    God appoints men and angels to perform miracles, wonders, and signs for His purpose, and in order to perform such you don’t have to be a spirit entity but be given the power of God’s Spirit. 

    In Acts 10 you are specifically told that Jesus of Nazareth did all his deeds through being anointed with God’s Spirit, and that what he accomplished he did it through God being WITH him. The same is true for when he was raised from the dead, for upon being raised from the dead we are told that he received the promised Holy Spirit, the mercies of David, and on that day God begat him, where he was thus a Son according to the Spirit dwelling in him.

    March 31, 2020 at 6:56 am#861916
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Mary only had 23 chromosomes in her gamete, and in order to make a human she needed 23 more chromosomes,

    without them there is NO HUMAN. 

    ME: CARNAL MINDED MENTALITY!  YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT GOD’S FERTILIZATION.

    NOT HUMAN/ SATANIC FERTILIZATION THROUGH SIN.

    Also it is specifically by the male gamete that a baby’s sex is determined.

    In order for God to bring forth the human Messiah that He promised and do so through a sign of a virgin birth, He had to provide Mary with

    a male gamete, just one haploid cell.

    PURE LIES

    Is that too much for our Almighty God, I think not! 

    YOU THINK NOT???

    Jodi, you really disgust me,

    putting God in the same basket as humans.

    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh:

    is there anything too hard for me? 

    God doesn’t need any of the above

    NONSENSE

    you mentioned  in order to have

    His Son in His own substance, SPIRIT, as a human father does in His own substance, FLESH.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING IN GOD’S OWN WORK, IT IS HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO ALL HIS WORK, 

    “THE WORD” WHO ITSELF WAS MADE FLESH.

    GOD NEVER NEEDED MARY AS SUCH.

    HE COULD HAVE SENT HIS SON LIKE A METEORITE!

    HE CREATED MARY FOR THE HUMAN RACE TO REPLACE OUR CURSED SATANICALLY CONTAMINATED OUR MOTHER EVE.

    READ:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    Ezekiel 37:7 And I prophesied as he had commanded me: and as I prophesied there was a noise, and behold a commotion: and the bones came together, each one, its joint. 8And I saw, and behold the sinews, and the flesh came up upon them: and the skin was stretched out over them, but there was no spirit in them. 9And he said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus saith the Lord God: Come, spirit, from the four winds, and blow upon these slain, and let them live again. 10And I prophesied as he had commanded me: and the spirit came into them, and they lived: and they stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

    John 11:39 Jesus saith: Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith to him:

    Lord, by this time he stinketh, for he is now of four days.

     40Jesus saith to her: Did not I say to thee that if thou believe, thou shalt see the glory of God? 41They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes, said: Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people who stand about have I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43When he had said these things, he cried with a loud voice:

    Lazarus, come forth. 

     

    Isaiah 66:7 Before she was in labour,

    she brought forth;

    before her time came to be delivered,

    she brought forth a man child.

    8Who hath ever heard such a thing?

    and who hath seen the like to this?

    shall the earth bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be brought forth at once,

    because Sion hath been in labour, and hath brought forth her children?

    9Shall not I that make others to bring forth children,

    myself bring forth,

    saith the Lord? shall I, that give generation to others,

    be barren, saith the Lord thy God?

    Jodi, NO LESS THAN 8 WOMEN ARE MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE,  THEY WERE  BARREN/OLD  AND STILL BECAME MOTHERS BY GOD INTERVENTION. ELIZABETH, THE MOTHER OF JOHN NEVER HAD INTERCOURSE WITH ZACHARIAH. jOHN NEVER INHERITED ADAM’S SIN. HE WAS MORE THAN A PROPHET.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ.

     

     

    March 31, 2020 at 8:00 am#861917
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Believing in what God’s words says is not carnal. Taking what God says and changing it IS carnal. Not apply scripture with scripture leads you to perceive passages through your own imagination, and that is likewise being carnally minded.

    God made humans in His own image. NOT a lie. 

    You are also told that each kind of creature that He made He made them planning for them to each receive their own glory. Each kind of seed that God planted does not change into a different kind of seed from that which was sown, each seed itself was prepared by God before the world was for it to receive it’s own glory.

    Humans were prepared by God to become righteous HUMANS with eternal life inhabiting earth.

    You are also told that God’s plan is to be ALL IN ALL, and we read that God’s promise is to give humans a heart of flesh and place His Spirit within causing humans to walk in all His ways, and that those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. The fruits of God’s Spirit that are a witness to our spirit are love, peace, temperance, kindness, self control, faith,..etc.

    We are given God’s word as to the GENESIS/ORIGIN of Jesus and God’s word time and time again is that Jesus IS a HUMAN. 

    “I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Isaiah 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    March 31, 2020 at 9:56 am#861919
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    It is NOT a LIE that Jesus is said to be a Son of a human and that he is said to be a Human. 

    6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,

    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    man -anthropos –human being

    In order for Mary to bring forth, as a virgin, the human that Jesus is said to be, she needed the power of God’s Holy Spirit to give her one human male haploid cell. Matthew directly tells us that Jesus is biologically the son of Joseph, the son of David and the son of Abraham, so it should be obvious that God would then be providing Mary with that which equated to one of Joseph’s haploid cells.

    As said, the prophecy of the virgin birth was for a SIGN unto the house of David specifically regarding how God would bring forth David’s son who would be the promised Messiah. That Messiah was prophesied also to be a human who God would be mindful of and visit, and crown this human with glory and honor, and give this human dominion over all of God’s works. To change God’s word and say that the purpose of the virgin birth was for God to create a one of a kind being to come forth to be our Messiah IS a LIE. 

     

    March 31, 2020 at 11:57 am#861933
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He became one of us so we could become like him.

    April 1, 2020 at 11:19 am#861989
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is NOT a LIE that Jesus is said to be a Son of a human and that he is said to be a Human.

    That is not a lie. But saying that he is only that is a lie.

    April 1, 2020 at 4:33 pm#862016
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    YOU:

    He came in the flesh to become one of us, so we could be born again and become like him, the son of God.

    Through him God created the universe.

    ME:

    “He“, that came into the world, is he whom God SENT upon God anointing him with the full measure of His Spirit, hence why we are told that Jesus Christ came in the flesh AND he is likewise the Son of Man that CAME TO SAVE that which was lost.  

    You say, an anointed spirit son came down to earth to become one of us becoming of flesh.

    I say, Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Jesus is the name given to a human being born of a virgin, and his name means “Jehovah is salvation.” How does Jehovah bring forth our salvation specifically, as directly given to us? Not by him pre-existing, but upon God anointing him for the purpose of sending him out to set us at liberty.  

    You’re moving the TRUTH away t8, it’s all ABOUT our salvation coming through a man being anointed with the fullness of God’s Spirit, and your changing it to be about an anointed spirit son being sent to earth for our salvation.

    April 1, 2020 at 5:43 pm#862017
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    YOU:It is NOT a LIE that Jesus is said to be a Son of a human and that he is said to be a Human.
    That is not a lie. But saying that he is only that is a lie.

    ME:

    Jesus is called a human because that is what kind of BEING he is said to exist as. 

    MORE than a human, as representing him existing of an additional other kind of being, does not equate him to existing as an actual human being. 

    All passages that people use to try and prove that he is more than a human being, are ALL passages where people are denying a clear simple given truth. If you apply that truth then that which kind of being Jesus is said to exist as, stays in perfect tact. Likewise it is a work that demonstrates how are God is actually all knowing and all powerful able to fulfill His will. 

    When you don’t apply it, the imagination tells you that he must be more than a human being, which that thinking is the exact equivalence to the foolish fables of pagans, where many of their might men were of a dual nature, existing as more than one kind of being. 

     

     

     

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