John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,801 through 19,820 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #851032
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: My answer: To provide a real life example of something that demonstrates how through the asexual reproduction  process of binary fission, the simplest parent/offspring relationship which, according to a first and only generation, demonstrates that the age of the substance in both is identical in age and type. No one can say that the son can not possibly be as old as his father with that example.

    The common argument that the son of God can’t be as old as his Father because a father is always older that his son, is null and void from that one real life example. You can’t say that the example doesn’t demonstrate a parent/offspring example. It isn’t a human example but God is not human so that doesn’t matter.

    As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.  That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed.  So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”.  And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.

    Secondly, lose the “parent/offspring” terminology.  For your analogy to be considered valid, we must have a FATHER and a SON – because that is the relationship both Jesus and his God have described.

    Thirdly, cells don’t begin with a fixed amount of “substance” that then gets cut in half when they separate – leaving each cell with only half of the substance the original one started with.  More substance is always being generated, and when enough NEW substance is produced, the cell can divide, making a new cell out of that new substance.  So not even the substance of the original cell and the new cell is the same age.

    #851033
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:Jesus is the divine Son of God who was made flesh as the beloved John says.

    He was with God in the beginning, and all things were made by Him and all

    things remain in Him.

    ME: Paul speaks against your word Berean. Can you please specifically respond to these passages directly?

    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    What did the prophet David say concerning God’s Son,

    13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    Berean, please address the fact that in Luke 1 the child IS the son of David, and that he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest, and that the Lord God will give him his father David’s throne. 

    I’d like to see how you can explain this fitting into your belief as these words of God are opposite of what you say.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Berean, do you realize that this was our Lord God’s word before the world began? 

    When you are told that all things were made by reason of and for him, the him is this man that our Lord God promised He would be a Father to and give him an eternal throne, where he would sit upon it in the flesh being of the root and offspring of David. 

    You take passages and CHANGE the IMAGE of our CHRIST as you deny a simple God given truth and don’t apply it directly to where it is purposed to be applied to. 

    Our Heavenly Father wanted us to KNOW that the man who SHED his blood becoming our source for eternal salvation, is he that God made all things by reason of and for, not that he pre-existed and created all things for himself.

    This should be totally obvious to you that this is TRUTH, because the LORD who says that He created all things ALONE by Himself, speaks of this man telling us that he is FIRST a Son of a Man and THEN our Heavenly Father would anoint him and THEN SEND him out into the world to die on the cross and justify people from all things.

    To say that Yehovah had to SEND his divine Son to become a human in order to save the world is complete falsehood if ever I heard one.

    Yehovah had to call a man to righteousness, rest His Spirit upon him in full measure and then SEND this man out into the world where Yehovah would direct all his ways so that he could become PERFECTED learning OBEDIENCE as Yehovah was with him teaching him.

    Without this Spirit upon the man Jesus, Jesus could do nothing of himself. 

    God did not choose to send down a Son to be a man. God elected a man from among his brethren, anointed him and sent him out into the world. He was the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit without measure, the only mortal man to have God direct ALL of his ways, God’s WORD spoken by the prophets fulfilled in his flesh, where his FLESH became unto us the BREAD FROM GOD.

    #851034
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.

    That would be impossible for the original cell to only represent the father since the meaning of father requires the existence of an offspring. The original cell would either represent the father AND the son or the potential father and son (as I’ve already pointed out to you).

    #851035
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?

    Kathi:  Here is ONE scriptural reason:

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    Okay, let’s compare…

    Acts 4:24

    When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    Does this mean that Jehovah created Himself?  He is, after all, a part of the “everything” in the heavens, right?  Or could the word “everything” be sensibly understood as “everything excluding the subject”?  For example…

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    See what I mean?  Paul clearly said “everything” – but then explained that by “everything”, he obviously didn’t mean EVERY SINGLE THING.  What if Paul didn’t add that disclaimer?  Would sensible people still be able to figure out that “everything” obviously didn’t include God Himself – who was the one who put that “everything” under Jesus in the first place?  I’d surely hope so.  And I’d certainly hope that nobody with a personal agenda would try to twist Paul’s use of the word “everything” into somehow teaching that Jesus was equal to his God – who put the “everything” under his feet.

    So then back to John 1:3…  Could a sensible person assume that John’s use of “all things” and “nothing” exclude the subject, Jesus… AND his own God, Jehovah?  Could it mean that once Jehovah and Jesus both existed, “all [OTHER] things” came into existence through him, and “no [OTHER] thing” came into existence without him?

     

    #851036
    Berean
    Participant

    BROTHERS AND SISTERS

    LET US GO NO FURTHER THAN WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS

    FORMALLY DECLARE.

    JESUS IS OUR JUSTICE

    Jeremiah 33
    …15In those days and at that time will I bring forth the seed of righteousness to David; and he shall execute justice and equity in the land. 16 In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name of it: The Lord our righteousness. 17 For thus says the Lord, David shall never lack a successor, sitting on the throne of the house of Israel….

    And this is what we’ll call it: The Lord our righteousness. KJB.VERSION

    Hebrew Transliterated  (Jeremiah)
    33:16 BYMYM HHM ThVSh’y YHVDH VYUrVShLM ThShKVN LBTCh VZH ‘aShUr-YQUr’a-LH YHVH TShDQNV.

    YHVH TShDQNV

     

     

    American Standard Version
    33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

    Darby’s English Translation
    33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety. And this is the name wherewith she shall be called: Jehovah our Righteousness.

    Noah Webster Bible
    33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety: and this is the name by which she shall be called, JEHOVAH our righteousness.

    World English Bible
    33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.

     

    GOD BLESS

     

     

    #851037
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: Does this mean that Jehovah created Himself?  He is, after all, a part of the “everything” in the heavens, right?  Or could the word “everything” be sensibly understood as “everything excluding the subject”?

    I understand what you the word “other” to be added but it isn’t.

    Consider for the moment that both the Father and the Son are indeed eternal, and therefore both would be YHWH which implies always existing, then there are two persons as YHWH.

    #851038
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean, You and I get that Jesus is called Yahweh. That is refreshing!

    #851039
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.

    Kathi:  That would be impossible for the original cell to only represent the father since the meaning of father requires the existence of an offspring. The original cell would either represent the father AND the son or the potential father and son (as I’ve already pointed out to you).

    Okay, let me rephrase it…  As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario where there are now TWO cells, the original cell represents the Father…

    Is that better for you?  Sorry, I assumed that the phrase “original cell” implied that there were more than one cell.  Otherwise I’d just say “the cell”.  😉

    After all, people don’t speak of the “original Taj Mahal”, do they?

    #851040
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    If neither of the two persons were considered “made” then it would be wrong to add the word “other.” Since the word “other” is not in the text, that demonstrates that neither person was made. Let it be. Enjoy the eternalness of the Father and the Son. That answers soooooo many questions.

    Please take the quiz that I put up recently here and tell me your answers.

    #851041
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Okay, let me rephrase it…  As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario where there are now TWO cells, the original cell represents the Father…

    Not quite…the original cell represents the father and son.

    #851042
    Lightenup
    Participant

    this is better:

    the original cell either represents the potential father and son

    or the father and son before the begetting

    #851043
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: BROTHERS AND SISTERS

    LET US GO NO FURTHER THAN WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS

    FORMALLY DECLARE.

    JESUS IS OUR JUSTICE

    Jeremiah 33
    …15In those days and at that time will I bring forth the seed of righteousness to David; and he shall execute justice and equity in the land. 16 In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name of it: The Lord our righteousness. 17 For thus says the Lord, David shall never lack a successor, sitting on the throne of the house of Israel….

    And this is what we’ll call it: The Lord our righteousness. KJB.VERSION

    Hebrew Transliterated  (Jeremiah)
    33:16 BYMYM HHM ThVSh’y YHVDH VYUrVShLM ThShKVN LBTCh VZH ‘aShUr-YQUr’a-LH YHVH TShDQNV.

    YHVH TShDQNV

    Berean, what does that same phrase mean in Jeremiah 33:16 – where it refers to Jerusalem?  Is Jerusalem also “Jehovah Our Righteousness”?  Shall we worship Jerusalem as our God and Creator now?  Or do those Hebrew words mean “Jehovah IS our righteousness” – much like Emmanuel means “God IS with us”?

    Hopefully you can see how the “Jesus is God” crowd pick and choose difficult Hebrew and Greek phrases, and insist that they must mean Jesus is God when they clearly don’t have to mean any such thing.

    #851044
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Mike

    It refers to Jesus and not to Jerusalem
    Jesus is our justice
    And nothing else.
    May God guide you.

    #851045
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: Mike,

    If neither of the two persons were considered “made” then it would be wrong to add the word “other.” Since the word “other” is not in the text, that demonstrates that neither person was made.

    Great.  So now we just go back to those scriptures I posted earlier that clearly say Jesus was made, and it becomes clear that all OTHER things were made through Jesus… after his and our God made him as the first of His works.  After all, even as your mental gymnastics exercise about two cells makes clear… the original cell (AND it’s original substance) was alive and well BEFORE the latter cell (and it’s copied substance) was brought forth into existence BY the original cell.

    As for John 1:3, unless the Word himself and the Word’s God were two of the “all things” that were made through the Word, then “other” is clearly intended – just as it was intended in 1 Cor 15:27.  The only difference in the two is that John didn’t add the obvious disclaimer spelling this out, while Paul did.

    #851046
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    It refers to Jesus and not to Jerusalem
    Jesus is our justice
    And nothing else.
    May God guide you.

    It refers to Jesus in Jeremiah 33:16?  Show me.

    In the meantime, which god are you asking to guide me?  There are, after all, myriads of myriads of them.  Are you requesting guidance for me from the Most High God of gods who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them – also known as my Heavenly Father?  Or from His holy servant Jesus, also known as my brother and joint heir of God with me?

     

    #851047
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for your reply!

    So how do you address the fact that Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the FLESH, where David foresaw that his flesh would not see decay?

    We are told that he was raised from the dead in glory, power, made incorruptible. He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones. The people who witnessed him ascend were told that same Jesus would descend.

    He is a son of a HUMAN returning. He is called the last Adam/HUMAN who is the root and offspring, the fruit of David’s loins.

    Matthew 1 tells us the GENESIS of Jesus is of Abraham and David and that he is of the genes of Abraham and David through their sons that lead up to Joseph.

    With God all things are possible, as God can create humans making them male and female, and He can take a barren woman and make her womb fruitful, He can most certainly provide Mary’s egg with the needed chromosomes equating to Joseph’s sperm.

    The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7 has NOTHING to do with God sending down a spirit son to be a man, it has nothing to do with God creating a one of a kind being, it has EVERYTHING to do with a SIGN so that the house of David would know God fulfills His promise, that of a son of David, who God would be a Father to, God would give that son the throne of his father David where he would rule over the house of Jacob forever. 

    I will reply to John 17 in my next post.

    #851048
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    you said: So now we just go back to those scriptures I posted earlier that clearly say Jesus was made

    But none of them say that Jesus was made, sorry.

    #851049
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Or from His holy servant Jesus,

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

    Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

    In the above Mike

    WHO SERVES WHO?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #851050
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast SENT. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    The work that God gave Jesus to do was upon the Spirit resting upon him, an anointing, and from there is when Jesus was SENT, sent to preach the gospel of God, to heal, to deliver captives from darkness… (Isaiah 11, 42, 61, God’s word fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus) This anointed Jesus is he who God sent, and being the only mortal man to have received of the fullness of God’s Spirit without measure, he was God’s only begotten Son that had been filled with grace and truth. 

    17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    with -para, from, of 

    glorify though me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had of thee before the world was.

    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 

    Mike it doesn’t make sense to me at all that God needed to send down an only begotten son to be a man, for then to have that man be able to do nothing of himself.

    Scripture does not tell me that Jesus received the Spirit because he was already a Son of God having been sent to earth. Scripture tells me that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing and was sent, as it was a promise from God to be fulfilled in the son of Jesse. This word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus spoken by the prophet Isaiah, I believe was indeed God’s word before the world began.

    #851051
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:And no, I don’t believe that words that Jehovah would eventually speak through prophets were what was “with Him” before the world was created.

    ME: Regardless if you believe that Jesus existed prior or not, God promised eternal life before the world was. If those words declared before the world began were not still with God during the time of David, God would not have ever told David that his son’s flesh would not see decay. If those words before the world began were still not with God during the time of Jesus, Jesus would have never said that he was the Son of Man who has come to save that which was lost. If those words were not still with God during the time of Paul, Paul would not have told people that “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    If God’s words are no longer WITH God then we would not see a resurrection, our God would be a liar who doesn’t keep His word.

    In order to keep your word that word needs to remain with you, if it doesn’t remain with you your word becomes lost.

     

     

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