John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,401 through 20,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863674
    Ed J
    Participant

    I hear a lot of people saying “YA HOO AH” these days. I usually say “Jehovah” or “Yahweh”.

    Hi Mike,

    Since sheva cholam & kamatz are the three vowel pronunciations to God’s name, God’s name…

    YHVH becomes YeHoVaH

    Watch all three videos when you get time. The proof is there

    #863683
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike and All,

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: 68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. 70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them,Ye say that I am. 

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our ONE GOD THE FATHER before the world began promised eternal life, that promise declared by our God in His word from the beginning is the promise of His Spirit causing us to walk in all His ways, as by such there is no sin and thus no death.

    The Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand Jesus the son of David, was a firstborn HEIR to this PROMISE.

    All things that our ALL KNOWING Father created by Himself, ALONE, He did by reason of and for this HEIR (a HUMAN receiving THE PROMISED Holy Spirit given forever more) where God also predestined JOINT HEIRS to be glorified together with him. 

    Our ALL KNOWING Father PURPOSED IT and said He would do it, He declared this END from the beginning. 

    So many of you are denying the END that is directly given to you, HUMANS living in the image of God on earth for all eternity, and you are denying that this was God’s word from the beginning. As you deny, you go about grossly misinterpreting scripture and make FALSE IMAGES out of our ONE GOD THE FATHER and OUR MESSIAH. 

    #863689
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:It’s not so much a matter of WHEN, but the fact that the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.  Who is greater… the one who sends or the one who was sent?  Who is greater… the one who gives or the one who receives?  Notice that Jesus doesn’t ever give his own God any power or authority, right?  So if one is greater, then it stands to reason that the other is lesser.  And that is the situation in a nutshell.  The Father is greater than his son/servant/priest/messiah/prophet/lamb/word/angel Jesus.  The Father is the Highest God OF gods.  Jesus is one of the lesser gods his Father is the God OF.

    Again, Mike, the above is a FULL CORRUPTED CARNAL REASONING, considering the fact that you are attributing your MERE FUTILE conclusions to

    God, and His tasks, and also the fact that for you GODS’ UNFATHOMABLE ATTRIBUTES ARE simply

    MERE SITUATIONS IN A NUTSHELL!!

    YOU: but the fact that the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.

     Mike  THE ABOVE is your WISDOM in a NUTSHELL IN ITS ENTIRE SENSE: Now lets be clear about WHAT YOU CALL

    THE FATHER GAVE SO MANY THINGS TO HIS SERVANT JESUS:

    ACCORDING TO YOU THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!

    John 16:15 All things

    whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that

    he shall RECEIVE of me……

    WHO GAVE MIKE?  

    JESUS!

    WHO RECEIVED ALL THINGS MIKE?

    THE FATHER!

    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.

    Matthew 28:18 ….ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth.

    THE FATHER IS DOING WHAT MIKE? I TELL YOU:

    Matthew 22:44 The Lord said to my Lord: Sit on my right hand,

    ( IT’S MY TURN TO SERVE YOU AND)

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool? 

    YOU REMAIN IN FULL POWER)

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: Notice that Jesus doesn’t ever give his own God

    ANY power or authority, right?

    John 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh

    WHOM I WILL( AUTHORIZE and EMPOWER TO )   SEND  (HIM)

    from the Father,

    the Spirit of truth,

    who PROCEEDETH  from

    the Father,

    he shall (SERVE ME AND) give testimony ( AFFIRMATION)

    OF ME.

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

    YOU: Who is greater… the one who gives or the one who receives?

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God,

    MIKE IN THE ABOVE 

    JESUS GAVE AN IMAGE TO THE INVISIBLE GOD! 

    WHO GAVE MIKE?

    JESUS!

    WHO RECEIVED MIKE?

    GOD!

    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    that is the situation in a nutshell. MIKE!

    JESUS IS GOD THE HIGHEST MIKE!

    SWALLOW IT DOWN TO YOUR GUTS

     

    more to follow!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863692
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Continue:

    First this:

    Theology / By [email protected]

    In the world they would enter with multiple pagans gods and goddesses, the Israelites must realize that the creation story of their Bible states that only one God made the heavens and the earth, and that God is a singular God. Although there are clear indications in the OT of the three Persons of the Godhead (Genesis 1:1-2 is a good illustration of that), it is not until the NT and the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, that this is made clear. And this clarity is stated with tremendous gravity in John 10:30.

    Loads Of Truth In One Claim

    Notice what Jesus said;

    “I and the Father are one.” 

    Does that sound familiar? Jesus is not simply stating that He and the Father are of the same essence, although that is true. Jesus is not simply stating that He is God, although that is true.

    The reason the Jews wanted to stone Him on the spot and the reason why the Jews were so offended is simple:

    Jesus said that

    He is as much

    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4 as YHWH is

    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    The verb Jesus uses in John 10:30 indicates that the same condition of the one is true of the other. In other words,

    “I am one, and the Father is one.”

    Jesus is claiming to be the very God of Deuteronomy 6:4! It is no wonder the Jews were so incensed at Him!

    How Do We Know This Is True?

    Look at their reasoning for picking up stones to stone Him in v. 33: “The Jews answered Him,

    “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy;

    and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

    The Greek here literally says: “…concerning a good work we do not stone you, but concerning blasphemy, even that you being a man make yourself God.”

    See, they understood that the foundational element in the theology of the Jews is the singular nature of God and that rock-bed of truth is found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and supported over the next thousand years of OT canonical writing; One God, alone, designed and created all that exists.

    Jesus is now claiming to be that very God.

    The Jews understood that. That unthinkable claim (if it were not true), that a Man would be the God of the OT, is the blasphemies of all blasphemies and is

    the very reason they began looking at the ground for stones to throw at Him (John 10:31).

    Again, these Jews understood very clearly what Jesus was claiming.

    He was claiming absolute solidarity, unity, and perfection with the God of the Mosaic sermon of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    If it was not true,

    Jesus Christ would indeed be the most insane man ever to have walked this planet

    John 10:20 …He hath a devil and is mad. Why hear you him?

    Now to refresh your blocked mind, Mike! WITH EVERY RESPECT:

     

    The Equality of Jesus and the Father

    IN A NUTSHELL

    John 5:17-19

    But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

    Philippians 2:5-6

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

    John 1:1-2

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

    John 5:23

    that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 14:8-11

    Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

    John 17:5

    And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    Colossians 2:9

    For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    John 10:30-33

    I and My Father are one.’ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:1

    “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863693
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Yet they still called him God’s holy servant, right?

    ME:  WHERE MIKE? WHICH SCRIPTURE?

    Produce

    the actual scripture

    Here’s mine:

    Acts 4:24 Who having heard it, with one accord lifted up their voice to God and said:

    Lord, thou art he that didst make heaven and earth, the sea and all things that are

    in them.

    25Who, by the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of our father David, thy servant, hast said: Why did the Gentiles rage: and the people meditate vain things?

    26The kings of the earth stood up: and the princes assembled together against the Lord and his Christ.

    27For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, 28To do what thy hand and thy counsel decreed to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants that with all confidence they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thy hand to cures and signs and wonders, to be done by the name of thy holy Son, Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was moved wherein they were assembled: and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they spoke the word of God with confidence.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863723
    Jodi
    Participant

     

    formatting is not working I will have to try something else

     

     

     

     

    #863730
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    As you know my stance,

    that God’s word from the beginning was of a man who would inherit God’s glory, and prior to Jesus going to the cross he was asking to receive the glory that was of God that had been given to him before the world even began. I believe that glory is eternal life, and when there is eternal life that means that God’s Spirit in fullness is promised to dwell in you forever more. His glory also is that which comes with him being a firstborn heir, with him being made a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    I would like to know what is the glory that you believe Jesus had, that you believe he received back? Sorry if you have mentioned this and I have missed it.

     

    #863734
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    The prayer mentions the creation, right?

    1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    Yes, Mike, the prayer mentions the creation.

    1. Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    2. Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity (to whom they prayed) that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as the “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.

    Can we move on now?

    LU

     

     

    #863736
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    My point was that the Father does things without needing the power/authority/company/assistance of the Son.  Some of those things the Father does without the Son are for the benefit of the Son, sure.  But that’s not the story you’re painting here.  You’re trying to imply that the Father NEEDS the Son in order to do stuff – as if they are co-equal Gods who ALWAYS work hand in hand on every single thing.  No.  The Father can do ALL things completely by Himself – even if He hadn’t created Jesus as the first of His works.

    Jesus, on the other hand, can do NOTHING without the power/authority GIVEN to him BY his and our God, Jehovah.

    Can you find scriptural fault with anything I said here… especially the emboldened part?

    I say: Jesus wasn’t created so you are wrong there.

    Luke 10:22″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

    According to that verse, the revelation of the Father is given or not given depending whether the Son wills to reveal the Father. The Father’s revelation to mankind is dependent on the will of the Son. Therefore, the Father depends on the will of the Son in that case. Clearly the Father needs Jesus in order to be revealed.

    John 5:20

    “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

    In that verse, if the Son did not exist, the Father couldn’t show him what He is doing. As the verse tells us, the Son has been there from the first work since He has seen all the Father does.

     

     

    #863741
    Jodi
    Participant

    Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

    Thanks,   Jodi

    #863742
    Lightenup
    Participant
    #863761
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    I did not find the answer to my question in that writing. If I missed the answer, please cut it out and paste it in a post. All I saw was the same that is given on this forum where people take passages out of context and don’t apply other passages.

    I asked people to explain how Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed but then people say he is God’s Son because of his virgin birth where his parents are Mary and God. Where does the already pre-existing son come into play in the second scenario?

     

    #863763
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    For the sake of argument, let’s say you believe that the eternal God, in order to create and relate to creation, needed to become able to be present in heaven on the throne as well as be able to leave heaven and the throne and be visually present in a place other than heaven. In order for Him to be able to be present in two dimensions, He had a son who would have His nature and attributes. Hence, the eternal God takes from Himself and goes through the process of asexual reproduction in order to accomplish this which brings forth the only begotten Son. Now, being present in two places at once is possible through the Son being able to go and do their united purpose within creation. In the OT, God is seen and heard in the person of the Son not the person of the Father because He is in heaven on the throne and remains unseen by created things on earth.

    So that shows you how the Son can be a literal biological son of God before time begins.

    Regarding the way that the pre-existent Son can be a son of God in Mary is this; God took the already existing Son and brought Him forth into the womb of Mary through the work of the Spirit of God, empowering her to conceive without a man and thus Jesus is the son of God, according to the flesh,  and not a son of Joseph (except legally by being the husband of Mary).

    The only begotten Son of God is the Son of God in three ways, initially before time as the only begotten son to come out of the Father, next as coming out of Mary in order to become flesh, and finally as coming out of the grave.

    I don’t know if that helps you understand my view at least.

    LU

    #863769
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father.

    So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

     

    Jodi, first of all, IGNOR COMPLETELY YOUR HUMAN MENTALITY, AND PERCEPTIONS REGARDING GOD:

    God and His tasks are

    inscrutable, enigmatic, unfathomable, and all the rest!

    Read:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

     

    Isaiah 6:3And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy,

     the Lord God of hosts,

    all the earth is full of his glory,

    Colossians 1:16 For in him were ALL THINGS created… 

    17….by him ALL THINGS  consist.

    Colossians 1:19…that ALL FULNESS should dwell:

    Isaiah6:55 And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace;

    because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips,

    and I have seen with my eyes

    the King the Lord of hosts. (JESUS CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AS MAN IN FLESH)

    John3:13 And no man (IN FLESH)

    hath ascended into heaven,

     but he that descended

    (IN FLESH) from heaven,

    the Son of man (JESUS PRE-EXISTED IN FLESH) who is in heaven

    John6:62 If then you shall see

    the Son of man (JESUS IN FLESH) ascend up

    where he was (IN FLESH)  before?

     

    Genesis 18 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent,

    in the very heat of the day.

    2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near to him: and as soon as he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground.

    3And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. 

    Genesis 22:8  And Abraham said:

    God will provide

    himself    (in Jesus)

    a victim for an holocaust,

    my son. (Jesus, embodied in Isaac, THE BEGINNING of the eternal covenant)

    So they went on together.

     THE FATHER and THE SON TO THE CROSS!

    Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad.

     

    Luke 9:29 And whilst he prayed,

    the shape of his countenance was altered

    and his raiment became white and glittering.

     35And a voice came out of the cloud; saying:

    This is my beloved son. Hear him.

    Jesus in the above manifested his pre-existence.

     

    Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #863771
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Thank you, that was a clear explanation to that which you believe.

    #863772
    Lightenup
    Participant

    You’re welcome Jodi, I’m glad it was clear.

    #863846
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Unless you go to Spain Mike,

    YOU WILL NEVER BE CHILLING!

    Um… okay.  But now address the actual POINT I made…

    I will be in location X in one year from today.  It is my wish that (in one year from today) you also be where I AM.

    Do you understand that Jesus’ wording works PERFECTLY for asking his God for his disciples to be where HE IS (when he is returned to heaven with his original glory restored)?  Do you further understand that Jesus would never pray to his God for his disciples to be where he was on earth at that current time – since his disciples ALREADY WERE where he was on earth at that current time?

    Carmel: Read hereunder:

    that they may see my glory which
    thou hast given me,  
    In the above Jesus already had this particular glory!  SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT! 

    No, it is the same glory from verse 5.  Maybe I can walk you through this…

    1.  God created His firstborn Son before the world began.
    2.  God’s firstborn Son was given (past tense) a bunch of glory and dwelled alongside his and our God.
    3.  Jesus emptied himself and was made as a human being, no longer having the original glory that he used to have in heaven.
    4.  John 17:5 is Jesus praying to his and our God to be taken back to heaven, and to have that original “heaven glory” restored to him.
    5.  John 17:24 is Jesus (still praying to his and our God) expressing his wish for his apostles to also be where he is (in heaven with his original glory restored) at that time, so they too can see this original “heaven glory”.
    6.  Jesus rightly calls this glory something that God HAS given him, because God HAD already given it to him before the world began… which brings us right back to #2.

    Get it?  God GAVE him the glory.  Jesus EMPTIED himself of the glory.  Jesus asks to be RETURNED to the glory that he had been previously GIVEN (past tense), but no longer possessed on earth.

    Carmel, if you are unable to understand this very simple matter, then I’m not sure I can help you with more complicated matters.

     

    #863859
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..There is not one scripture that says Jesus “prexisted” his actual existence on this earth, there is not I NE scripture that shows “any” activity, of him pryor to his birth on this earth. We have “only” prophesy concerning he fore told birth, in our scriptures, all the rest is simply conjectures, without statement of “FACT “, IN OUR SCRIPTURES.

    The “Golry” Jesus had with the Father before the world began, was a “prophesied glory”, afforded him befor he ever existed.  KING DARIUS, had that also 200 years befor his birth on this earth , even his name was prophesied, and all the power and Glory he was to recieve.  So why isn’t he also  worshiped as a , “prexisting ” being to.  The whole concept of a preexisting Jesus  is the result of  forcing our text to say what in fact it does not say.  

    Dose anyone think that,  a Glory Jesus had, would be anything like the Glory he “now has”.  No past Glory could even remotely compare to the Glory he “he now has”.  Even that should be enough to prove Jesus was not talking about any kind of  actual past Glory, but a prophesied Glory he was to recieve  later. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #863861
    Ed J
    Participant

    You’re in denial Gene

    #863863
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.(John 8:58)

     

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