John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,421 through 20,440 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863865
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……Sorry it was Cyrus, not Darius that God prophesied about before he was even born,  about 200 hundred years before. Isa 45:1-4

    But no one applies a preexistence life to him, why?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #863866
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Abraham  rejoiced to see the day of Jesus, question, why would Abraham rejoice to see the day of Jesus, if Jesus already was alive in his day?  Was he off hiding somewhere or what?  “No one” has ever shown any activity, of Jesus in heaven or on earth, before his birth on this earth.

    Has anyone ever explained that?  As far a Jesus saying  he was “alive”  before Abraham, no scripture says that.  The Jews were trying to show Jesus how important to God they were,  being childern of Abraham. Jesus was showing them he was more important then Abraham was. He was in the plan and will of GOD before Abraham ever existed, he was in Gods Plan before he ever created any  man on this earth.

    He is significant because he represent what God had in mind for his human creation from the very beginning of creation. Jesus is the finish product of what God the Father had and has in mind for us all.   But none of that ever made Jesus a live prexisting being of anykind.

    If that were true , it would completely destroy God the Father work in mankind. Not to even mention Jesus would not have quilified to pay any sin debt for humanity  at all.

    No scripture say GOD LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR ANYONE.  If God were to die then all life would cease to exist for ever.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #863867
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Get it?  God GAVE him the glory. (ME: JESUS WAS ALREADY A MAN IN FLESH IN HEAVEN)

    LUCIFER REBELLED; NEVER ACCEPTED TO BE SUBJECT TO 

    A MAN DESPITE DIVINE)

    YOU: Jesus EMPTIED himself of the glory. ( ME: SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE WAS, AND REDEEM ALL THOSE ANGELS LOST DUE TO THE REBEL:

    US

    YOU: Jesus asks to be RETURNED to the glory that he had been previously GIVEN (past tense), ME: NO MIKE, JESUS SIMPLY ASKED THE FATHER TO HAVE THAT SAME GLORY WHICH HE HAD IN HEAVEN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, BUT THIS TIME ALSO

    ON EARTH, SATAN’S PROPERTY UP TO THIS DAY! FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH, AND REDEMPTION!

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    YOU: but no longer possessed on earth. (JESUS NEVER LOST HIS ORIGINAL GLORY AS MAN IN FLESH! HE REMAINED UNKNOWN! TO ALL HEAVENLY REALMS. CONFIRMED IN

    JOHN: 1:30 This is he of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: (JESUS WAS PREFERRED BEFORE JOHN (MICHAEL) TO BECOME MAN IN HEAVEN! because he was before me. (ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER)

    31And I knew him not: ( JESUS PURPOSELY WAS UNKNOWN IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED FIRST BY THE HEAVENLY REALMS)

    but that he may be made manifest in Israel, ( OFFICIALLY MANIFESTED AS MAN PRECISELY IN ISRAEL, LUCIFER’S SPIRIT)

    therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him.

    33And I knew him not:

    IN THE SAME WAY, MIKE,

    THAT HE IS IN HEAVEN NOW AND ALSO IN 

    YOU MIKE, (BELIEVE IT OR NOT MIKE, YOU ARE ANOTHER JESUS) AND IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE! JESUS IS THE PROPRIETOR OF HUMANITY! HE GAVE US 

    LIFE (WE ARE HIS MORE THAN THE FATHER’S)

    THE FACT THAT HE CAME TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF ALSO ON EARTH AS

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    IN FLESH (John 17:2)

    DESPITE MORTAL!

    SIMPLY TO OFFICIALLY OWN TOTAL CONTROL OVER DEATH!

    SATAN MIKE WAS IN THE POSITION TO KILL DELIBERATELY WHOEVER HE WANTS,

    UNLESS GOD INSTRUCTS HIM NOT TO, LIKE IN THE CASE OF JOB. CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN

    John 8:44 You are of your father the devil: and the desires of your father you will do.

    He was a murderer from the beginning:

    Lucifer Mike commenced his rebellion when he flooded the first world! Confirmed in

    Ecc.1:10 Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new:

    for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us. (Noah’s flood was the second flood)

    SATAN CONSIDERED HIMSELF AUTONOMOUS! UNLESS GOD MANIFESTS ON EARTH LUCIFER/SATAN’S CREATION, OTHERWISE! THE FACT THAT JESUS ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE KILLED. FOR THE SAKE OF

    TRUTH

    HE KILLED ABEL! SIMPLY AS ABEL WAS NOT BORN THROUGH SEX! LIKE JESUS WAS! LIKE ISAAC WAS, LIKE JOHN WAS, AND OTHERS WERE! AND THEY WERE NOT KILLED AS GOD SIMPLY USED SUPERNATURAL  BIRTHS, THROUGH BARREN WOMEN OF WHICH SATAN HAD NO RIGHTS.

    Carmel, if you are unable to understand this very simple matter, then I’m not sure I can help you with more complicated matters.

    MIKE if you are unable to accept God’s wisdom, I cannot help you, but you can

    ASK, KNOCK, AND SEARCH, THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    James 1:5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men abundantly and upbraideth not. And it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind. 7Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.

    Now Mike here it is again:

    YOU: Sure it does.  Hey Carmel, next week I’ll be chilling in the south of Spain.  It is my wish that you will also be where I am so you can chill with me.

    POOR MIKE,

    Again you put God in the same

    BASKET OF YOUR OWN MENTALITY:

    Unless you go to Spain Mike,

    YOU WILL NEVER BE CHILLING!

    JESUS ALREADY HAD THAT GLORY, 

    A MAN IN FLESH

    HE CAME TO EARTH FOR OUR SAKE, AND TRUTH!

    HE NEVER NEEDED TO COME,

    IN THE SAME WAY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO SPAIN SO YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR
    CHILLING

    Read hereunder:

    that they may see my glory which
    thou hast given me, 

    ( ALREADY A MAN IN FLESH)

    In the above Jesus already had this particular glory!  SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT! 

    So let’s start again:

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am, (RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, ALREADY IN THIS PARTICULAR GLORY, IN HEAVEN, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS PHYSICALLY

    AS MAN!

    John3:13And NO MAN  hath ascended into heaven, but

    HE

    (THE MAN)

    that descended from heaven, 

    THE SON OF MAN, WHO IS IN HEAVEN

    OK MIKE JESUS WAS A PHYSICAL BEING ALREADY!

    A MAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, IN HIS GLORY WITH THE FATHER!

    THE FACT THAT GOD CREATED THE MAN 

    IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS! THUS:

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    that they may see my glory which thou hast given me

    ( AS MAN, THE SON OF MAN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, ASSERTED HEREUNDER)

    because thou hast loved me (AS MAN IN FLESH) before the creation of the world.

    POOR MIKE!

    YOU CAN ONLY SEE UP TO YOUR CARNAL NOSE. WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    READ ONE MORE TRUTH:

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

      A MAN IN FLESH!

     

    Isaiah 6:1 And I said: (ME) Woe is me, because I have held my peace;

    because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, (YOU MIKE, JODI, and GENE) and

    I have seen with my eyes (IN SCRIPTURE)

    the King the Lord of hosts. 

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST  ISAIAH 9:6

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863874
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..problem is the word “return” is not there, why do you constantly add words to our text, to justify you false beliefs. The word of God stands on its own it doesn’t need you to change it and alter what it says, by forcing the text, trying  to make it say something it clearly does not say.  You are a true “trinitarian ” that’s for sure.  Full of delusions and false teachings because of not loving the truth, you have received a deluding spirit. 2ths2.  

    Long posts changing texts and forcing them  to say things they are not saying is hardly a sign of a person true to the word of God. IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #863875
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said: There is not one scripture that says Jesus “prexisted” his actual existence on this earth, there is not I NE scripture that shows “any” activity, of him pryor to his birth on this earth.

    Gene, who do you think Abraham is having a face to face conversation with in this passage:

    Genesis 18

    22And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou consume the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And Jehovah said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sake. 27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, who am but dust and ashes: 28peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five. 29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for the forty’s sake. 30And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake. 32And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake. 33And Jehovah went his way, as soon as he had left off communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

    Please read it through carefully and then respond, Gene. Thank you! LU

    #864020
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

    ME:

    Philippians 2:5For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    6Who being in the form of God, (ALREADY IN THE FLESH) thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7But emptied himself, ( FROM HIS GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST)

    taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

    8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

    9For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names:

    10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ

    IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

     

    In the above Jodi, you have a clear scripture which ANSWERS  your question!

     

    JESUS WAS GOD, UNKNOWN TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS, IN THE PROBATION PERIOD, AS A TEST FOR THEIR LOYALTY TO GOD.

    A TEST WHICH FAILED AND COMMENCED THE REBELLION OF LUCIFER.

    NOW Jodi, Jesus Christ from His Glory of God, before the world was,

    EMPTIED HIMSELF  FROM HIS GLORY OF GOD AND AS A SPIRIT started His redemption process to bring back TO GOD the lost angels who rebelled

    US

    WHILE HE REMAINED IN HIS GLORY!

    AS GODMAN IN FLESH

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but

    he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man

    who is in heaven.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #864181
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  What does the word “OF” mean to you?  For example, Solomon was the son OF David, right?  Was Solomon “David the Son“?

     

    Carmel:  Herod is the son of Herod the great
    Herod the Son.
    Do you know why? Simple; AS THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME NAME, LIKEWISE

    JESUS IS ALSO GOD

    Ah, I should have used the title to better make my point – since “God” is a title.  So David was “The King of Israel”.  Solomon was David’s son.  Was Solomon  “the son of the King of Israel”?  Or “King of Israel the Son”?  “Son of the King”?  Or “King the Son”?  Which one?

    And no, the Son and his God most certainly do not have the same name.  YHWH is the name of the Most High God of gods.  Jesus is the name of His Son, Holy Servant, Anointed One, Priest, Mediator, Sacrificial Lamb, Prophet, etc.   It’s true that Jesus’ God has since given Jesus an even better name, but that new name is still not YHWH.

     

    #864182
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: JESUS IS THE ACTUAL HEART OF GOD!

    Scripture, please?  (Because in Matthew 15, it is clear that Jesus speaks of mankind, using the Greek word “anthrópos” multiple times in that teaching.)

    #864183
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: ACCORDING TO YOU THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!
    John 16:15 All things
    whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that
    he shall RECEIVE of me……
    WHO GAVE MIKE?  

    JESUS!
    WHO RECEIVED ALL THINGS MIKE?

    THE FATHER!
    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    Wait a minute… you think that in John 16, Jesus is talking about the Father asking him for something, and Jesus giving it?  Seriously?  Surely you realize that Jesus is talking about his DISCIPLES asking, and Jesus giving it to them, right?  But then, according to your logic, that makes Jesus OUR servant!  😉

    #864184
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Notice what Jesus said;

    “I and the Father are one.” 
    Does that sound familiar? Jesus is not simply stating that He and the Father are of the same essence, although that is true. Jesus is not simply stating that He is God, although that is true.

    The reason the Jews wanted to stone Him on the spot and the reason why the Jews were so offended is simple:

    Jesus said that

    He is as much
    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4 as YHWH is
    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    So in your mind, Jesus is actually saying that the Son and the Father are literally one?  So in essence, the Father IS the Son, and the Son IS the Father?  Come on, man.  But then it gets worse…

    John 17:21-22

    …that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one…

    Now the Father IS the Son… who IS all of the disciples… who also ARE the Father Himself, etc.  😎  The Father, the Son, and Jesus’ disciples are all the same exact “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4?  Carmel, I don’t know how or when you allowed yourself to veer so far from scriptural truth, but the majority of the things you post are simply nonsensical to a rational mind.  (I know, I know… it’s because my mind is carnal and wicked and mad, right?)

    #864187
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  The Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand Jesus the son of David, was a firstborn HEIR to this PROMISE.

    Okay, so you have no rational answer for why Jesus would be asking his and our God for a glory that he HAD alongside/with/from God before the world began.  You only have the irrational argument that people can ask for things they say they HAD – despite them never actually having HAD those things before.  So let’s jump to John 1 for a minute…

    John 1:1-3

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made, and without him nothing was made that has been made.

    “The Word” in verse 1 is clearly the person Jesus – which will become undeniable as we meticulously examine the rest of the verses in the chapter.  But let’s set a starting point…  I believe (know) John is speaking about JESUS having been with God in the beginning, and God making all things through His firstborn Son, Jesus.

    What or who do YOU believe John is referring to by “the logos” here?

    #864188
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    Hi Mike,

    You have been gone for a while and I know you were interested in this quest regarding the prayer in Acts 4 so I am pasting my post to you from back then so you don’t miss it:

    Mike,

    You asked:

    The prayer mentions the creation, right?

    1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    .

    My response:
    Yes, Mike, the prayer mentions the creation.

    Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.
    Can we move on now?

    LU

     

    #864189
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  27For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child [SERVANT] Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, 28To do what thy hand and thy counsel decreed to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants that with all confidence they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thy hand to cures and signs and wonders, to be done by the name of thy holy Son [SERVANT], Jesus.

    It’s clear the KJV is trying hard to NOT label Jesus as a SERVANT of his and our God, you know, the one they prayed to… the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  I would suggest that you try a better translation of that passage.  Or you could even use the same KJV translation, but just look at how the same word is translated in different passages – where the translators are not trying to avoid calling someone a servant.  Here’s one of them…

    Matthew 12:15-18 KJV

    But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen…

    It is the same Greek word in the above verse, yet the KJV translators render it as “servant”, not “child” or “son”.  Why do you suppose that is, Carmel?  But this one shows their bias even more clearly…

    Acts 4:25 KJV

    Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

    That one is the same Greek word – within the SAME EXACT PRAYER!  😁  So why would the KJV translators render the word as “servant” when it refers to King David, but then go out of their way to NOT render it as “servant” in the same exact passage when it spoke of Jesus?

    Like I said… try a better translation of that prayer.  So let’s begin again…

    1.  The apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?
    2.  The apostles were NOT praying to Jesus – which means Jesus is NOT the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    3.  The apostles identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF God the Creator of all things.

    End of story.

    #864190
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Jesus’ apostles prayed to Jehovah which is the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom they called LORD, who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    Jesus was the member of the Jehovah unity that was sent to be the Messiah that the apostles regarded as “Your holy servant Jesus” in Acts 4.
    Can we move on now?

    Hey, perfect timing Kathi!  I was just talking about that prayer with Carmel.

    Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to a unity of the Father and Jesus, but then identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the unity of the Father and Jesus?  Is that right?

    (What if you were forced at gunpoint to answer this riddle without resorting to mental gymnastics and philosophies about cells dividing and whatnot?  What if you had no choice but to address this prayer in the most logical, straightforward way it could be understood?  What if you were compelled to admit that this prayer clearly and undeniably proves that the apostles of Jesus did NOT consider him the God who created all things – but rather the holy servant OF the God who created all things?  That’s a response I’d love to see.  😎)

    #864191
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  I would like to know what is the glory that you believe Jesus had, that you believe he received back?

    Jesus had great glory on earth as God’s only begotten Son who was sent into the world.  But that glory was nothing compared to the glory he emptied himself of (Phil 2 – which we’ll hopefully discuss later).  The difference in the two amounts of glory are emphasized in the transfiguration event.  Before he transfigured, Jesus as the Son of God on earth still had a great deal of glory.  But while transfigured, a couple apostles got to catch a glimpse of the far greater glory Jesus had (and now has again) before he emptied himself to be made as a human being.

    So it was the shining-brighter-than-the-sun glory that Jesus left behind when he came into the world… and it was this glory that he was asking God to return him to.

    #864192
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike, not quite…

    You said:

    Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to a unity of the Father and Jesus, but then identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the unity of the Father and Jesus?  Is that right?

    If your response there said this:

    Okay, so your understanding is that the apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but then identified a member of that unity, who is the Son, as the “holy servant Jesus” which he is often called in his role as the Messiah, btw, and elsewhere as “YHVH our Righteousness”.

    If your response was that, then you would be correct. You might be interested that the early martyrs did believe in the deity of the holy servant Jesus when they were threatened with death.

    Notice I did not mention cells at all, btw. I guess I would be among the martyrs. May God give me the courage of Polycarp and a quick death and an even quicker transfer to the presence of the LORD if that happens.

    LU

     

    #864193
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Father’s revelation to mankind is dependent on the will of the Son. Therefore, the Father depends on the will of the Son in that case. Clearly the Father needs Jesus in order to be revealed.

    Both of your examples are so far from what we’re actually talking about that they hardly deserve a response from me.  Your examples include God GIVING something to Jesus, and God REVEALING things to Jesus.  Clearly God already HAD the things He GAVE to Jesus, and already KNEW the things He REVEALED to Jesus, right?

    When has the opposite ever been the case?  When has Jesus GIVEN power, authority, position or revelation TO his and our God?  Never.  Because God can (and sometimes does) stuff without Jesus, but Jesus himself tells us that he can do NOTHING apart from his God.  That is the point.  God has the power and the wisdom, and GIVES some of it to His holy servant Jesus.  There is no “co-equal unity” here.  There is a Master – and His servant… with whom the Master is well pleased, and to whom He gives many good things.

    #864194
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Do you believe that YHVH and his “ARM” aka “YHVH our Righteousness” are in disunity? Yes or no?

    #864195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

    Thanks,   Jodi

    It’s not two different “God’s Sons”, Jodi.  Jesus was the firstborn Son of God long before the other angels or our world was created.  Jesus was “created as the first of God’s works”, and was “the beginning of the creation by God”.  So he was already the only begotten Son of God long before he was sent into the world.  God’s Son was then born on earth as a human being by a combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.

    Romans 8:3
    For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

    See?  Jesus was already God’s Son before.  But THEN God sent His son to be born of a woman and dwell on earth in the likeness of sinful man… ie: the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh.

    #864196
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    When has Jesus GIVEN power, authority, position or revelation TO his and our God?

    My answer:

    When he (the Son) was begotten before the ages he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of being a father.

    When the Son made all things in heaven and on earth, he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of the creator.

    When the Son was slain before the foundation of the world he gave the YHVH who beget him, the honor of the position of the future redeemer, savior, shepherd, etc.

    Apart from the Son, the YHVH who beget him would not have the honor to be in the position of a father, a creator, a redeemer, a savior, a shepherd, etc.

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