John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,381 through 20,400 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863636
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    IN THE BIGINING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made BY HIM; and WITHOUT HIM was not any thing made that was made.

     Jesus KNOWING that the Father had given all things into his hands, AND that he was come FROM GOD, and went to God;(John 13:3)

    FOR YOU MIKE, WHEN THE FATHER HAD GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO THE HANDS OF HIS SON ???

     

    #863637
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Father, I want those you have given me to be with me

    where I am,

    MIKE,  TELL JODI, WHERE JESUS WAS IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME…

    He was on earth at the time, but talking about when his and our God returns him to heaven.  Like this…

    “Father, please give me back the glory I had before the world began, and make it so my apostles can also be where I am at that time so they can also see me in my true glory that I had before you sent me into the world as a human being for 30 years.”

    In other words, “bring me back home, and bring these guys along so they can see how great it is there and how glorified I am there”.

    #863638
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……Those words are not what scripture supports, you have added thought into them.  Mike please notice Jesus never said “give me back” that is a assumption on your and others part, taken from the stand point of a “preexisting Jesus”,  a position that no scripture supports.  Jesus had “before him comming into his existence” a “prophesied ” glory, much like KING Cyrus had 200 years befor his birth on this earth also had.  A prophesy with God is as if it is done, even though the fulfillment hasn’t yet happened.  I think you already understand this?  JESUS was and is the result of a PROPHESY OF GOD, being fulfilled, his person, his glory, his honor, all given him “before” his comming into his only  existence. we also are prophesied to recieve the thing GOD, has in his forordained plan for all humanity. When that time comes to each of us we can all say exactly what Jesus said, about the Glory and Honor and all thing put under our feet, afforded us by our,   and his heavenly FATHER.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #863640
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: “Father, please give me back the glory,

    NO MIKE, JESUS, DESPITE HE CAME ON EARTH, HE NEVER LOST HIS ORIGINAL GLORY. HE NEVER LEFT HIS FATHER, HE IS ETERNAL AND ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE FATHER! John3:13And no man hath ascended into heaven, but

    he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man WHO IS in heaven. OK MIKE? HE REMAINED IN HEAVEN!

    SIMPLY AS GOD CAN MULTIPLY, AND BILOCATE HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HE PLEASES!

     

    YOU: He was on earth at the time,

    John17:24 24 Father, I will

    that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    (ACCORDING TO YOU ON EARTH) IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE AT ALL!

    Jesus WANTED the Father to make it possible for the apostles to be WITH HIM.

    WHEN IN FACT THEY WERE WITH HIM. NOT ONLY THAT MIKE BUT A FEW MINUTES LATER,

    THEY RAN AWAY, AND LEFT JESUS ON HIS OWN TO BE BUTCHERED!

    SO THE FATHER IGNORED HIM. NO? Now to the next part!

    that they may see my glory which

    thou hast given me,  

    In the above Jesus already had this particular glory!  SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT! So let’s start again:

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am, (RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, ALREADY IN THIS PARTICULAR GLORY, IN HEAVEN, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. AS MAN! John3:13And NO MAN  hath ascended into heaven, but

    HE (THE MAN)  that descended from heaven, THE SON OF MAN, WHO IS IN HEAVEN)  they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    that they may see my glory which thou hast given me ( AS MAN, THE SON OF MAN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, ASSERTED HEREUNDER)

    because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    Mike the entire process of the kingdom of the Son,

    the kingdom of God, is accomplished already within the divinity of God, it simply is being implemented, and manifested physically! This is pinpointed out by Jesus in

    Luke 14:28 For which of you, having a mind to build a tower, doth not first sit down and reckon the charges that are necessary, whether he have the wherewithal to finish it: 29Lest, after he hath laid the foundation and is not able to finish it, all that see it begin to mock him, 30Saying: This man began to build and was not able to finish. 31Or, what king, about to go to make war against another king, doth not first sit down and think whether he be able, with ten thousand, to meet him that, with twenty thousand, cometh against him? 32Or else, while the other is yet afar off, sending an embassy, he desireth conditions of peace.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863641
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete…

    John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth… 14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall shew it to you. 

    Carmel, is Jesus the servant of the Spirit of truth?  I ask because you say the Father serves the Son by giving the Son things.  So does Jesus then serve the Spirit of truth by giving it things?

    #863642
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike the SON OF GOD IS 

    GODMAN on earth!
    GOD THE SON

    No.  What does the word “OF” mean to you?  For example, Solomon was the son OF David, right?  Was Solomon “David the Son“?  We and God’s spirit sons are all “sons of God”.  Jesus was the firstborn, but remains a son OF God… not God Himself.  In fact, Jesus is many things OF God…

    Jesus was begotten BY God. (Psalm 2:7, John 3:16)
    Jesus is a creation OF God. (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
    Jesus is the Son OF God. (Matt 16:16)
    Jesus is the Word/Spokesman OF God. (John 1:1, Rev 19:13)
    Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/Anointed One OF God. (Luke 2:11, Acts 2:36)
    Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb OF God. (John 1:29, Rev 7:10)
    Jesus is the Holy one OF God. (Mark 1:24, John 6:69)
    Jesus is a prophet OF God. (Luke 4:24, Acts 3:22)
    Jesus is an angel/messenger OF God. (John 8:28, 12:49, Galatians 4:14, Revelation 22:16)
    Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and men. (1 Tim 2:5)
    Jesus is a Priest OF God. (Heb 5:10)
    Jesus is a Servant OF God. (Acts 4:30)
    Jesus OBEYS God. (John 8:29, 12:49)
    Jesus WORSHIPS God. (John 4:22)
    Jesus says his God is greater than him, and all. (John 14:28, 10:29)
    Jesus says that our God is also his own God. (John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
    Jesus distinguishes himself as someone OTHER THAN his God. (John 10:36, 17:3)
    Jesus was sent BY God. (Gal 4:4)
    Jesus sits at the right hand OF God. (Mark 16:19, Acts 2:33)
    Jesus rules in the power, authority, and name OF God. (Micah 5:4, Matt 28:18)
    Jesus will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to his own God. (1 Cor 15:24, 28)

     

    #863643
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Yet they still called him God’s holy servant, right?

    Carmel:  WHERE MIKE? WHICH SCRIPTURE?

    Twice in the prayer in Acts 4… the one you didn’t want to discuss openly with me.  Remember I kept asking who the one they prayed to was?

    #863644
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Hi Gene,

    (Matthew 1:18 / Matthew 1:20 / Luke 1:35) (Luke 10:30-37)

    Jesus lineage explained

    “Son of Man”: 25%; Mary’s mother’s lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
    “Son of Man”: 25%: Mary’s father’s lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
    “Son of God”: 50%: Jesus’ Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)

    At birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
    At baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)

    Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…

    ……………….Mother……….Father
    ………………..Mary………HolySpirit
    …………………50%…………50%
    ……………………\……………/
    ……………………..\………../
    ………………………..Jesus
    ………………………./…….\
    ……………………./…………\
    …………………../…………….\
    ……….Son of Man…….Son of God
    ………..(Mark 6:3)……..(Luke 1:35)

    Well done, Eddy!

    #863647
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: TRUTH: Jesus was the Son of Man who received the Spirit, an Anointing, for the purpose to be sent out to set us at liberty.

    FAKE NEWS: Jesus is God who needed to come down to earth and be a man to set us at liberty.

    Agreed.  Now just add the part where he existed with great glory before God created the world through him. 😉

    #863648
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Hi Ed J,

    Seems that scholars disagree on whether it’s YHWH or YHVH, and others who research say they don’t know which one is correct between the two. Some also believe the proper is YHUH. Recently I have been using YHWH though in the past I have used YHVH.

    Please share what info you have, it would be much appreciated.

    I was just reading a few articles myself, and think I might just start using Yah.

    I hear a lot of people saying “YA HOO AH” these days.  I usually say “Jehovah” or “Yahweh”.

    #863649
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  FOR YOU MIKE, WHEN THE FATHER HAD GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO THE HANDS OF HIS SON ???

    It’s not so much a matter of WHEN, but the fact that the Father GAVE so many things to His servant, Jesus.  Who is greater… the one who sends or the one who was sent?  Who is greater… the one who gives or the one who receives?  Notice that Jesus doesn’t ever give his own God any power or authority, right?  So if one is greater, then it stands to reason that the other is lesser.  And that is the situation in a nutshell.  The Father is greater than his son/servant/priest/messiah/prophet/lamb/word/angel Jesus.  The Father is the Most High God OF gods.  Jesus is one of the lesser gods his Father is the God OF.

    #863650
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike please notice Jesus never said “give me back” that is a assumption on your and others part…

    Gene, when someone asks to be given something they HAD before… they’re asking for that thing to be given BACK to them.  They’re asking for the RETURN of that thing they used to have, but don’t currently have.  Why?  Because if they currently had it, they wouldn’t be asking for it.  And if it was never something they had in the first place, they wouldn’t ask for the thing that they HAD before.  Cheers.

    #863651
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  NO MIKE, JESUS, DESPITE HE CAME ON EARTH, HE NEVER LOST HIS ORIGINAL GLORY

    Then what is he asking his and our God for in John 17:5?

    Carmel: John 17:24 24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    (ACCORDING TO YOU ON EARTH) IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE AT ALL!

    Sure it does.  Hey Carmel, next week I’ll be chilling in the south of Spain.  It is my wish that you will also be where I am so you can chill with me.

    See?  It’s all in the “WILL BE” part.

    1.  I WILL BE in location X in one year from now.
    2.  I hope that you also WILL BE where I am one year from now.

    Get it?  The context implies that Jesus will be at a certain location IN THE FUTURE.  And he’s praying to his God that his apostles can also be in that same spot IN THE FUTURE.  And if his God answers his prayer, then IN THE FUTURE, his apostles will also be where HE IS.

    #863656
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Sure it does.  Hey Carmel, next week I’ll be chilling in the south of Spain.  It is my wish that you will also be where I am so you can chill with me.

    POOR MIKE,

    Again you put God in the same

    BASKET OF YOUR OWN MENTALITY:

     

    Unless you go to Spain Mike,

    YOU WILL NEVER BE CHILLING!

    JESUS ALREADY HAD THAT GLORY,

    HE CAME TO EARTH FOR OUR SAKE,

    HE NEVER NEEDED TO COME,

    IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE TO GO TO SPAIN SO YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR

    CHILLING

    Read hereunder:

    that they may see my glory which

    thou hast given me,  

    In the above Jesus already had this particular glory!  SINCE IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PRESENT PERFECT! 

    So let’s start again:

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am, (RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, ALREADY IN THIS PARTICULAR GLORY, IN HEAVEN, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS PHYSICALLY

    AS MAN!

    John3:13And NO MAN  hath ascended into heaven, but

    HE

    (THE MAN) 

    that descended from heaven, 

    THE SON OF MAN, WHO IS IN HEAVEN)  OK MIKE JESUS WAS A PHYSICAL BEING

    A MAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, IN HIS GLORY WITH THE FATHER!

    THE FACT THAT GOD CREATED THE MAN 

    IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS! THUS:

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    that they may see my glory which thou hast given me

    ( AS MAN, THE SON OF MAN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, ASSERTED HEREUNDER)

    because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    POOR MIKE!

    YOU CAN ONLY SEE UP TO YOUR CARNAL NOSE. WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    READ ONE MORE TRUTH:

    Isaiah 6:1 And I said: (ME) Woe is me, because I have held my peace;

    because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, (YOU ,MIKE, JODI, and GENE) and

    I have seen with my eyes (IN SCRIPTURE)

    the King the Lord of hosts. 

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST  ISAIAH 9:6

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863659
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…….you said Jesus is many things “of” God, I completely agree with you and I believe Jodi does also. But remember scripture say “there is “one” God and “one” mediator between GOD and men,  THE “MAN” Jesus Christ “.  Now if we agree with scripture, then HE IS A “MAN, THEN he could not have “prexisted” his birth, why?, because “no man” has , and remember, he clearly said he was a “son “of”man” who is from the roots of King David. Now if he was the “offspring ” of KING David, then he could not have “prexisted” his birth the same way we also could not have prexisted our births either, even though we are the root and offspring of our father’s also, and yet can still be called “the Sons “of” God too. 

    Mike Satan Biggest plan and effort is and was  to make Jesus out to be completely different then we are, the is exactly why the teachings of a preexisting “man GOD” was started by him in the very beginning of the true Church, through the false teachings of his servants, the GNOSTICS,  2THS2  IS SPEAKING OF THIS FALSE TEACHING which had infected the true church, and was taking root  at the time of the apostles,  Paul and John.

    Read what I wrote on “2ths2.  It will help clarify this to you. 

    But one thing I can say brother we do agree about most of what scripture say, and so does Jodi I believe.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #863660
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….No,  when someone ask to be given  something the had before, does not mean they are being given “back” Something, for instance an heir can say to his Father give me my  inherentence I had with you, before he ever actually received it. In fact we can also say the same thing as Jesus said , “Father give us the glory and honor we had with you,  before the world ever existed”. our Glory and Honor , already exists with God the Father reserved in heaven for us all.  See our point Mike? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #863661
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..It’s not “poor Mike, it’s “poor Carmel”, who has been blinded and can’t see or understand our clearly written scriptures. Mike has way more understanding of scriptures then you do Carmel.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #863663
    Berean
    Participant

    to all deny divinity of Christ

    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN(not created like say Mike) SON OF GOD. HE EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    I know it by its revelation: THE HOLY BIBLE

    JOHN 8

    Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    [22] Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
    [23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    [25] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

    #863667
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: No.  What does the word “OF” mean to you?  For example, Solomon was the son OF David, right?  Was Solomon

    “David the Son“?

    Herod is the son of Herod the great

    Herod the Son.

    Do you know why? Simple; AS THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME NAME, LIKEWISE

    JESUS IS ALSO GOD

    Whether you want to believe it or not!

    According to scripture, Jesus was A CARPENTER!

    THE SON OF  THE ONLY CARPENTER IN NAZARETH.

    HE WAS CARPENTER THE SON,  

    DO YOU WANT MORE MIKE,EXAMPLES?

     

    1John 5:20 And we know that the on of God is come.

    And he hath given us understanding that we may know

    the true God and may be in

    his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    (JESUS CHRIST)

    Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, (JESUS CHRIST) beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called: 2With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3Careful to keep

    the unity of the Spirit (IN JESUS CHRIST) in the bond of peace. 4One body and one Spirit: ( OF JESUS CHRIST) as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, (JESUS CHRIST)  one faith, one baptism.

    6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

    7But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. NOT OF THE GIVING OF THE  FATHER!

    Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    JESUS IS GOD AND FATHER

    John 20:17 But go to my brethren and say to them:

    I ascend to (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father, to (THE GLORY OF) my God and to your God.

    I ASCEND TO

    MY PARTICULAR UNIQUE FATHER IN FLESH, AS MAN,  and

    YOUR PARTICULAR UNIQUE FATHER IN FLESH  AS WOMAN! since Adam is dead,

    TO MY PARTICULAR UNIQUE GOD IN FLESH AS MAN, and 

    YOUR PARTICULAR UNIQUE GOD IN FLESH AS  WOMAN. since Satan’s FLESH,

    the god of this world is dead. 

    We and God’s spirit sons are all “sons of God”.

    WRONG Mike, YOU ARE MILES AWAY FROM JESUS’REDEMPTION!

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE MIKE ARE 

    ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN FLESH,

    ON JESUS’ RESURRECTION 

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN John3:3, EMBODIED with the entire human race, purchased by Jesus’ blood,  NOT THE FATHER’S,  BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THE FATHER AND HUMANITY! HIS CHILDREN IN CHRIST!

    1 Peter 1Blessed be

    THE(PARTICULAR UNIQUE ) God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    who according to his great mercy (CHRIST MERCY)  hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: 4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time. 

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE Mike, ARE 

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE NEW JERUSALEM FURNISHED BY 

    GOD THE FATHER! ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

    DO YOU KNOW WHY OUR GLORIFIED BODY IS FURNISHED BY THE FATHER?  1Corinthians 15:38But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. 

    Simple: AS HE FURNISHED JESUS’ FLESH BODY, THE PURE RANSOM,

    GOD THE FATHER  HIMSELF PAID THE DEBT DUE TO SATAN

    ONCE ADAM REJECTED

    GOD’S WILL, AND USED SATAN’S ASSET SIN.   

    Thus only GOD HIMSELF COULD PAY THE RANSOM TO RESTORE BACK

    HIS WILL!

    YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN!

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which

    THE HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased

    WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

    OK Mike? THE HOLY GHOST PAID BY HIS OWN BLOOD!

    YOU: Jesus was the firstborn,

    NOT JUST SAYS THE ABOVE TITLE MIKE BUT 

    EXPLAIN SPECIFICALLY HOW JESUS WAS THE FIRSTBORN!

    YOU: but remains a son OF God… not God Himself.

    NO MIKE NOT GOD HIMSELF 

    THE SON OF GOD

    GOD THE SON

    NO ONE KNOWS

    WHAT GOD IS!

    ONLY IN THE EMBODIMENT AND PERSONALITY OF

    JESUS CHRIST GOD IS REVEALED!

    YOU: In fact, Jesus is many things OF God…

    JESUS IS THE 

    TOTALITY OF GOD  

    THE HIGHEST SPIRIT OF GOD ONLY IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863669
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus was begotten BY God. (Psalm 2:7, John 3:16)
    Jesus is a creation OF God. (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
    Jesus is the Son OF God. (Matt 16:16)
    Jesus is the Word/Spokesman OF God. (John 1:1, Rev 19:13)
    Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/Anointed One OF God. (Luke 2:11, Acts 2:36)
    Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb OF God. (John 1:29, Rev 7:10)
    Jesus is the Holy one OF God. (Mark 1:24, John 6:69)
    Jesus is a prophet OF God. (Luke 4:24, Acts 3:22)
    Jesus is an angel/messenger OF God. (John 8:28, 12:49, Galatians 4:14, Revelation 22:16)
    Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and men. (1 Tim 2:5)
    Jesus is a Priest OF God. (Heb 5:10)
    Jesus is a Servant OF God. (Acts 4:30)
    Jesus OBEYS God. (John 8:29, 12:49)
    Jesus WORSHIPS God. (John 4:22)
    Jesus says his God is greater than him, and all. (John 14:28, 10:29)
    Jesus says that our God is also his own God. (John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
    Jesus distinguishes himself as someone OTHER THAN his God. (John 10:36, 17:3)
    Jesus was sent BY God. (Gal 4:4)
    Jesus sits at the right hand OF God. (Mark 16:19, Acts 2:33)
    Jesus rules in the power, authority, and name OF God. (Micah 5:4, Matt 28:18)
    Jesus will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to his own God. (1 Cor 15:24, 28)

    There’s even More, Mike,

    IN FACT, THERE’S THE MOST IMPORTANT:  

    JESUS IS THE ACTUAL HEART OF GOD!

    FROM WHERE “THE WORD”  OF GOD COMES OUT, 

    SINCE WHAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH, COMES FROM THE HEART

    Matthew 15: Do you not understand, that whatsoever entereth into the mouth, goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the privy?

    18But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart,

    and those things defile a man. 19For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

    Now Jesus when he came on earth, ON HIS DEATH HE 

    REMOVED THE HUMAN HEART OF STONE FROM HUMANITY  AND REPLACED IT WITH

    HIS

    ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    Ezakiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart,

    and put a new spirit within you:

    and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

    and will give you a heart of flesh.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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