John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,361 through 20,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #863508
    carmel
    Participant

    Lightenup,

    YOU: Does this sound like anyone here?

    Saint Ignatius of Antioch: The Epistles, page 141

    If any one says there is one God, and also confesses Christ Jesus, but thinks the Lord to be a mere man, and not the only-begotten [931] God, and Wisdom, and the Word of God, and deems Him to consist merely of a soul and body, such a one

    is a serpent, that preaches deceit and error for the destruction of men.

    AMEN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863512
    Ed J
    Participant

    Mary Human / God not Human
    50% Human / 50% God
    …at Jesus birth

    #863514
    Ed J
    Participant

    Carmel: Yes Mike, Jesus is THE ACTUAL LITERAL WORD SPOKEN OF GOD

    No he’s not. But if he was, then your doctrine is in trouble. How can a single word someone spoke be greater than the one who spoke that word? How does the speaker become the servant of a word that he spoke? And what of all the other words that speaker spoke in his lifetime? Did all of those words also become living entities that the speaker now has to serve? You are a very confused person, Carmel. Keep your posts small and to the point, and I’m happy to go through these odd beliefs you have to see if we can figure out where the problem lies. Cheers.

    Hi Mike,

    Here is the link. Looking forward to a discussion with you on this

    What does Hebrews 11:3 teach us?

    #863529
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….MERE MAN? , DO you mean mankind, who GOD gives Glory and Honor, and has put under his feet “all” the works of his hand?  My what low appionions you people have for GOD greatest creation, even saying  we are created in his ‘image”, so you must have a low application for his work also, interesting.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #863534
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    I believe the author of that quote is comparing what he knows is true to what you believe and what a huge difference there is between One who is the Only Begotten God who became a man to a man that didn’t pre-exist as the Only Begotten God.

    #863536
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Can you agree that Isaiah 61 is God’s word made true in the flesh?

    Here it comes again, Jodi:

    When Isaiah spoke those words 

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT, WAS

    ALREADY WITH THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND

    ALREADY ANOINTED!

    Isaiah 61:The spirit of the Lord

    is upon me, SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE!  Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

     

    because the Lord

    hath anointed me, PERFECT PRESENT TENSE! Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

    he hath sent me,  PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! Confirms Jesus’ pre-existence!

    to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up.

     

    YOU: Can you agree that Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself?

    ME: CAN YOU AGREE THAT THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING ALL OF HIMSELF?

    UNLESS YOU ACCEPT :

    JOHN 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD,………AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

    Confirmed in 1 Corinthians 11:3 …..the head of Christ is God

    CAN YOUR HEAD  LIVE WITHOUT YOUR BODY OR YOUR BODY WITHOUT YOUR HEAD? , Jodi , 

    ALSO GOD THE FATHER WITHOUT JESUS, OR JESUS WITHOUT THE FATHER!

    YOU: Can you agree that it is by the Spirit upon him that he is sent out to set us at liberty?

    ME: CAN YOU AGREE THAT IT IS BY THE SPIRIT UPON HIM,

    IN THE BEGINNING,

    THAT HE WAS SENT OUT TO SET US AT LIBERTY?

    YOU: It just so happens that this Anointed Jesus at his anointing at the river Jordan God declares him to be His Son, and it just so happens that it is this Anointed Jesus who is said to BE God’s Son, and it just so happens that this is WHEN we see Jesus being SENT.

    ME: PURE LIES!

    Jesus was NOT ANOINTED AT THE RIVER JORDAN, 

    JESUS WAS BAPTIZED FOR OUR SAKE, AND BY HIS BAPTISM

     OFFICIALLY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WAS BAPTIZED

    ALL IN HIM

    ALL BY HIM

    ALL FOR HIM

    AND  FURNISHED FOR HIMSELF MANY BRETHREN!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON/CHILDREN OF GOD, BORN OF GOD!

    THE FACT THAT GOD CALLED HIM 

    THIS IS MY SON, Simply as 

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE BECAME CHILDREN OF GOD IN RELATION TO THEIR 

    SOULS,  SPIRITS, AS GOD THE FATHER IS!

    THE WATER/SOULS  and THE HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT represent the unification of the SOULS AND THE SPIRIT, manifested immediately in the first MIRACLE at the Cana wedding, THE WATER/SOULS, into WINE/SPIRIT.

    Mary said to Jesus THEY HAVE NO WINE/ SPIRIT, simply as Jesus on His Baptism,

    REMOVED SATAN FROM HUMANITY EMBODIED IN HIM, AND FULFILLED 

    ALL JUSTICE!

    Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son:

    that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren. 

     

    EVERY TIME A PERSON IS BAPTISED IN JESUS’ NAME,

    JESUS BECOME ANOTHER FIRSTBORN AS A CHRISTIAN!

    BORN IN THE WATER AND THE HOLY GHOST,

    IN THAT PERSON!

    John3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless

    A MAN (JESUS) be born again

    of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    CAN YOU SEE THE ABOVE TRUTH Jodi? Here it is: I REPEAT:

    EVERY TIME A HUMAN  IS BAPTIZED AND BECOME A CHRISTIAN,

    JESUS IN HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, 

    originally slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev..13:8 ALREADY ANOINTED, AND WITH THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, 

    IS BAPTIZED AGAIN, BORN AGAIN!

    JESUS OFFICIALLY LIVES AGAIN IN THAT PERSON BAPTIZED! otherwise

    He remains SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…. IN THAT PERSON!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863544
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CARMEL…….as I said…..you people do not believe in th ANOINTING SPIRIT, being given to “the flesh” man Jesus. After he was baptized by John at the Jordan river.  That is exactly JOHNS POINT, when he coined the term “ANTI-CHRISTO’S ” or those against the anointing of the flesh man Jesus. You as well as others here fit perfectly into the category of ANTI-CHRISTO’S,  your own words in the above post prove it. And why don’t you believe it?, because you do not,  and can not see Jesus as a “flesh man” as a human being exactly as we are,  only without sin. 

    Jesus still is shown as a “LAMB OF GOD SLAIN” , need proof?,  Rev 5:6, Rev 5:12, Rev 13:8  clearly shows us that. Rev 13:8 shows us also it was in GOD THE Father’s Plan from the very foundation of the world.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #863562
    Jodi
    Participant

    Gene is exactly right, you all preach anti-christos.

    You deny that which was declared in the beginning concerning a man, then you deny those prophecies concerning him as made true in the flesh, and then you deny the END.

    You have a man sitting on a throne according to the flesh who is a first begotten Son of God of many Sons. We are joint heirs of God’s Spirit with Jesus, where God becomes ALL IN ALL.

    If YHWH promised to give all that which He had made to a man, then it should be obvious that all that He made would have been by reason of and FOR him. 

    TRUTH: Jesus was the Son of Man who received the Spirit, an Anointing, for the purpose to be sent out to set us at liberty.

    FAKE NEWS: Jesus is God who needed to come down to earth and be a man to set us at liberty.

     

    #863573
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    There is no “W” sound in Hebrew.
    God’s name is YHVH pronounced:

    YeHoVaH

    #863584
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,

    Seems that scholars disagree on whether it’s YHWH or YHVH, and others who research say they don’t know which one is correct between the two. Some also believe the proper is YHUH. Recently I have been using YHWH though in the past I have used YHVH.

    Please share what info you have, it would be much appreciated.

    I was just reading a few articles myself, and think I might just start using Yah.

     

    #863594
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    There is no “W” sound in Hebrew.
    God’s name is YHVH pronounced:

    YeHoVaH

    Hi Ed J,

    Seems that scholars disagree on whether it’s YHWH or YHVH, and others who research say they don’t know which one is correct between the two. Some also believe the proper is YHUH. Recently I have been using YHWH though in the past I have used YHVH.

    Please share what info you have, it would be much appreciated.

    Hi Jodi,

    OK, watch this video:

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #863595
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi, here’s another one:

    sheva cholam kamatz

    #863598
    Ed J
    Participant

    Here is another one:

    #863627
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  i do not agree that the Son had nothing to do with some of the things the Father did while Jesus was on earth. If the Father didn’t do something through the active participation of the Son, it was done for the Son’s benefit in some way.  The angel sent to Mary was because of the Son, btw. The angel sent to Zachariah was because of His Son, btw.

    My point was that the Father does things without needing the power/authority/company/assistance of the Son.  Some of those things the Father does without the Son are for the benefit of the Son, sure.  But that’s not the story you’re painting here.  You’re trying to imply that the Father NEEDS the Son in order to do stuff – as if they are co-equal Gods who ALWAYS work hand in hand on every single thing.  No.  The Father can do ALL things completely by Himself – even if He hadn’t created Jesus as the first of His works.

    Jesus, on the other hand, can do NOTHING without the power/authority GIVEN to him BY his and our God, Jehovah.

    Can you find scriptural fault with anything I said here… especially the emboldened part?

    #863628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Do you realize that you can do nothing apart from the Son? You can’t even exist apart from the Son, not even for a second.

    That’s the same as saying I can currently do nothing apart from Satan.  Since Satan (and Jesus) exist, I can’t possibly do a single thing without them – since they are part of my existence.  But God could take the life away from Satan, and I could still do things.  God could take away the life He gave to Jesus, and I could still do things.  And I exist through Jesus because my and Jesus’ Creator CHOSE to do things that way.  God could have just as easily made me even if He didn’t choose to make Jesus first, and then make all other things through Jesus.  You’re trying to play a semantics game here, but I’m very good at semantics games.

    Kathi, Jesus and his God are not equals.  Jesus is the servant of his and our God, Jehovah.  We aspire to be spiritual BROTHERS/SISTERS to Jesus, and SONS/DAUGHTERS to God.  Not brothers to God and sons to Jesus.  Do you understand the difference?

     

    #863629
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I’m not saying that currently the Father and the Son share one single mind. Like the cell theory, both cells are full and complete and while distinct with their own minds, they each have a different perspective as they know all things.

    You’re describing an original ONE mind that became TWO completely different minds.  As if an even greater mind split in two and became the Father and the Son. As if the Father (and His MIND) have a beginning.  Your cell analogy doesn’t work.  Not even close.  We should probably just stick to scriptures, and leave the fanciful speculation and imagination out of it.

     

    #863630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I’m posting all of this so you can point me to the place where you addressed my question…

    Mike: Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF“ the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

     

    Kathi:  This prayer identifies Jesus as the Messiah that the Jews just rejected and killed fulfilling the prophecy of the stone that was rejected. The rulers and leaders of the Jews saw a man healed in Jesus name and were furious because it made them out to be the stupid ones that the prophecy is portraying about the builders who rejected the stone and about the rulers taking a stand against the Messiah in the prophecy given through David. Because of their pride, they did not want to accept that they could be the stupid ones, so they rejected the idea that Jesus could be the Messiah. They forbid anyone to use the name of Jesus ever again but as you see in the prayer, the name was used boldly among the believers. It was an important moment when the believing Jews went against the authority of the ruling Jews and boldly proclaimed the name of Jesus inspite of their command.

    The context is not about how or through whom creation took place but every bit about recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah and the power of his name that the rulers are rejecting.

    Learning who the Messiah was and is, has been a process that develops as the Spirit releases more and more clarity. Perfect understanding of who and what the Messiah is did not just plop into the early Christian’s minds when they saw the risen savior, Mike. Similar to the cell analogy, clarity comes through seeking and wrestling with what we are given and seeking first the kingdom of God will draw us closer to the truth about all things related to God. Until we get to heaven, our “clarity” is going to be cloudy to some degree. Some people will see more clearer than others about one aspect and some people will see more clearly about another aspect.

    Questions are good. Keep asking with an open heart for understanding.

    The prayer mentions the creation, right?

    1. Did Jesus’ apostles pray to the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?  (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    2. Is Jesus the one to whom they prayed? (Clear, honest, and succinct answer please.)

    #863631
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Good post. We see Jesus as subordinate to God the Father, and that is correct,  backed up by many scriptures and even the words of Jesus himself as you have quoted, Jodie and I have also. They spin off what is actually written and create their own teachings without true scripture support.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #863634
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Would you say that the below statements are true,

    You can have an inheritance but not actually have yet that which you are to inherit from the inheritance.

    Sometimes to receive that which you are to inherit from the inheritance that has been given to you, you must fulfill certain criteria first.

    When you believe you are at the near point of reaching that criteria you may find yourself giving acknowledgement to the person who gave you the inheritance and telling them that it’s near time that you receive it.

    No.  I wouldn’t say that any of them are true.  The second one illustrates the problem quite well, since you use the future tense “are to inherit” in conjunction with the past tense “has been given to you”.  It’s the same with the third… “the person who GAVE” (past tense) versus “it’s near [the] time that you [will] receive it” (future tense).

    Now, if you’re talking about a PROMISE of something that you will someday inherit, you already have that promise (Grandma has promised to give you her valuable diamonds when you turn 30).  So you would not say to Grandma, “Please give to me now that PROMISE” – since the promise has already been given to you.

    If you are talking about the actual GOODS that have been promised, you would never speak of them as something you already HAD a long time ago. (“Grandma, please give me now the diamonds that I had 5 years ago.”)

    Now let me ask YOU a question…

    What would be the most rational and straight-forward understanding of the following sentence?

    “John, please give to me now the money I had in your safe before I moved out.”

    Would it be rational to conclude that the speaker was asking for the RETURN of something he previously HAD?  I’m sure you’d agree that is the only rational way to understand the statement.  Can you also agree that John 17:5 – taken at face value as if it was the only sentence in the entire Bible – would convey one person asking another person for the RETURN of something he previously HAD?

    #863635
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…..Good post. We see Jesus as subordinate to God the Father, and that is correct,  backed up by many scriptures and even the words of Jesus himself as you have quoted, Jodie and I have also. They spin off what is actually written and create their own teachings without true scripture support.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    Thanks brother Balthrop. 😊

Viewing 20 posts - 20,361 through 20,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account