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Hi Ed J,
You say my posts contain convoluted ideas. GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE?
The post you just made
You discuss way too many ideas in one post to address. Besides,
I’m only interested in how you view certain Scripture…But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.So you agree then – “He” is in reference to Christ in Micah 5:2?
Right?Edj……JODI…..is dealing with the same point, she is trying to show you Jesus was not alive before he was born on this earth, she has explained it very well, telling you it was in God’s plan from eternity, but even though it was his plan, it did not happen till it took place on this earth, and those scriptures has nothing to do with a preexisting being, comming to earth and being “morphed” into a man.
Go back and reread it, and this time study what she is saying.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Hi Ed J,
“He” in Micah 2, is the son of David that God promised to David long before Micah. What was promised to David was that one of his descendants would be made into an eternal king over David’s throne. Such coming forth of this seed of David was established by the One True God in a time of everlasting before earth and death existed.
To All,
I had a morning bible study of Hebrews 2,
Galatians 3: 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Luke 20: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Heavenly angels are Sons of God, they do God’s will, they are not able to die, they do not have to deny weak flesh overcoming temptation to follow God’s will.
Jesus of the seed of David, a Son of God according to the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and he became full of the Spirit and power of God, and God declared at that moment, “THIS is my Son,” he was thus made a little lower than the angels. Upon being God’s begotten Son, having been born of the Spirit at a measure like unto angels, he was not like the angels as he had mortal weak flesh. Jesus of Nazareth, the seed of Abraham had been made into the Christ—anointed, he had been made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, not yet given eternal life as angels had.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
The seed of Abraham is the Christ, the anointed. Jesus of Nazareth when he was born of the Spirit at the river did not take on the nature of angels, angels do not die, he was the anointed seed of Abraham, having the Spirit and Powers like angels, but he as the seed of Abraham, though he had been anointed, he was a mortal human, able to die.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ….
He is of the brethren, now how did Jesus choose to be like his brethren in some way? The verse does not say he chose to be MADE INTO a brethren, he is one of them already, the verse is saying that he chooses to be made like his brothers. Some of his brethren were priests, and as a priest their role was to make sacrifices to atone for people’s sins. Jesus would be like his brethren making a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world.
17….that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Good Morning t8,
You say that you are not arguing against the fact that Jesus was a man. Passages specifically refer to Jesus as a human anthropos and it is translated as man.
I am unclear as to how it is that you actually believe Jesus is human, as you say that this human is as well a pre-existing non flesh son of God that emptied himself.
What exactly did this pre-existing son empty himself of?
What part of the human Jesus was then also this pre-existing son?
If Jesus was more than a human, then how can you say he was actually human then, as he would be a combination of two different kinds of beings?
Hi Ed J,
This is the problem with trying to deal with just one verse or one theme, you don’t get to the truth as all things are connected together. If a person has one verse wrong it leads to many other things being read wrong. In order to establish one thing as wrong you have to show how the other things are wrong.
I will try and give a simple example,
Take Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
“himself” in this verse people read it as applying to a pre-existent non flesh son of God who emptied himself, of what exactly I am unclear of as no one explains it.
I read “himself” as in Jesus of Nazareth who had been filled with God’s Spirit and power, but in having that tremendous power he made himself of no reputation, he emptied himself, he humbled himself and said it was not of himself that he performs miracles and signs, but it is through God.
In order to further explain this chapter I have to establish the truth given from other chapters, we have to talk about how it is Jesus is the Christ, when it was Jesus became the Christ, what OT prophecy says, what Paul says, what John says..ect..
Hi All,
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Me: The lamb was both slain and after glorified before the foundation of the earth.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Me: The Son (of God)…of man had ascended into heaven before the foundations of the earth.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Me: The Messiah was slain, had risen from the dead, and was glorified in the mind of God before the foundations of the earth or before it happened.
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Me: This is a vision of the future glorified Christ and Moses and Elias.
Ed J is right.
It is better to keep each point to a post or thereabouts.
If you write an essay, people won’t read it or will read the first paragraph or so.
Forums are discussions and debates, not books.
Sure a long post to join scriptures together to make a single point about a doctrine is okay, but when every post is like that, people soon get tired of them.
Also, I have noticed that people who teach falsely like to make long convoluted posts for a number of reasons:
- It makes them look knowledgeable and formidable.
- It’s easy to hide weakness in arguments because they are hidden among many points.
- The saying “the devil in the details” has some truth to it.
Personally, if I attempt to read a long post, I usually read till I come to the first error if there is one. I reply to that and I am done.
I am unclear as to how it is that you actually believe Jesus is human, as you say that this human is as well a pre-existing non flesh son of God that emptied himself.
It’s written here for you:
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And here:
Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things…Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.There are a lot of points in here. But this is the picture you need to base any understanding the son of God’s origin. I believe and teach the points made in these and am opposed for it by those who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ. They believe that Jesus without the Christ is always a flesh man, thus they teach that Jesus is not the Christ.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Is the “He” in Micah 5:2 a reference to Christ?
Please Jodi, Yes or No?
Please desist from answering your own questions,
you are conversing with me, not yourself.____________
God bless
Ed JEd J,
Below is your post where you asked me a question, I highlighted your question from that post in bold for you.
YOU: Hi Jodi
You don’t seem to understand my question.
You’re all over the place, as usual. Please
answer my question, the one I asked.Who is the “HE” referring to in Micah 5:2?
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Please quit trying to jump the gun answering different questions.
Now when you answer that, I have more follow-up questions.ME: I answered you, NOT myself, I said “He” is the Son of David.
Now you have asked me if the “he” is Christ. Yes or NO?
MY ANSWER—- If your CHRIST is the Son of David that God anointed with His Spirit at the river, fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy (God’s promise) from old, that was even from everlasting, then my answer would be YES. 🙂
Edj…..the “man” Jesus did come out of the tribe of Judah, the “man” Moses , also came out of the tribe of Levi. Both became “anointed” leaders of GOD”S PEOPLE. YOU PROBLEM is you are trying to make the “man” Jesus, himself, the “anointing” himself, that was on him, before he was a “man” “anointed'” becoming the Messiah, of God. The man Jesus is not the (anointing) he is the (anointed) . The anointing spirit of God was from everlasting, because the spirit of God “IS” God the Father always was.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God , and the word “WAS” GOD.
“GOD was “IN” JESUS reconciling the world unto “HIMSELF” . God the Father, who “IS” Spirit was actually “IN” Jesus, how, by HIS anointing spirit, WHICH Jesus recieved when he was baptized at the Jordan river.
REMEMBER what Jesus clearly said , “the Father , “IN” me, “HE” does the works”, and again ” the son of man (Jesus) can do “nothing” of himself. ” and again , “the words I am telling you are “NOT”, “MY” words but the words of him that sent me” . If Jesus “IS” the word, then why say they were not his words, get it? People will have you believe because Jesus, in revelations is, He is “called” the word of God , that means he himself is t h e word of God, that a lie , he is “called” the word of God, because he tell us GOD’S WORDS not his words, another word he quotes God word to us.
God and his word are one and the same thing, God the Father was “actually” in The man Jesus, through the ANOINTING SPIRIT. Just as he was in the Prophets, AND SPOKE THROUGH THEM, he also speaks through Jesus to us.
But none of the made the prophets a God, nor does God The Father SPEAKING through the man Jesus make JESUS a God either.
“But unto “US” that are saved, there is “ONE” GOD, “ONE MEDERATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the “MAN” Jesus the anointed one. Simple as that.
Peace and love to you and yours ……….gene
T8…….The reason the world did not reconize him (GOD the Father that created everything) is the same reason you fail to reconize GOD the Father in THE MAN Jesus also.
Do you think THOMAS was kidding when he finaly RECONIZE God the Father was truly “IN” the man Jesus, and said,”my lord ( “adoni” a human ruler) , “AND” my GOD”?
TO bad more here can’t reconize that, there would be a lot less confusions here.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Hi Jodi
Part 1
You said: to Edj What exactly did this pre-existing son empty himself of? You don’t know Jodi, how could you, Jesus Christ is just a man to you. For one thing men can’t forgive Sins and save you. We spoke earlier and you stated that we couldn’t understand the New Testament without the old, by the way that works both ways, better yet you can’t understand the old in fullness unless you have the New. It’s called progressive revalation.But first let’s look at a the heretic Marcion in the second century. During the second century, the heretic Marcion questioned the church’s received canon of Scripture. Marcion belonged to the Gnostic movement, which among other things taught that the God revealed in the Old Testament, Yahweh, is different from the God revealed in the New Testament, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In so doing, Marcion and the other Gnostics set the new covenant Scriptures against the old covenant Scriptures such that the New Testament contradicted the Old Testament. ” Which it doesn’t.”
Marcion denied the longstanding Christian belief that although there are differences between the Old and New Testaments, such differences do not amount to contradictions. In fact, Jesus and the Apostles quote and allude to the Old Testament so often that one must excise, as Marcion did, all of the Old Testament references from the New Testament in order to believe that each testament reveals a different deity. From Jesus’ statement that He came not to abolish the Law or the Prophets to the author of Hebrews’ statement that the God who spoke through the old covenant prophets is the same God who has spoken through the Son, it is clear that the Old and New Testaments both reveal the same Creator (Matt. 5:17; Heb. 1:1–2). <sup class=”versenum”>17 </sup>“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
<span class=”text Heb-1-1″><span class=”chapternum”>1 </span>God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,</span> <span id=”en-NASB-29966″ class=”text Heb-1-2″><sup class=”versenum”>2 </sup><sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-NASB-29966a” data-link=”[a]”>[a]</sup>in these last days has spoken to us <sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-NASB-29966b” data-link=”[b]”>[b]</sup>in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the <sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-NASB-29966c” data-link=”[c]”>[c]</sup>world.</span> <span id=”en-NASB-29967″ class=”text Heb-1-3″><sup class=”versenum”>3 </sup><sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-NASB-29967d” data-link=”[d]”>[d]</sup>And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and <sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-NASB-29967e” data-link=”[e]”>[e]</sup>upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,</span><span id=”en-NASB-29968″ class=”text Heb-1-4″><sup class=”versenum”>4 </sup>having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. </span>
God bless 🙏 I’ll send more tomorrow. Feel free to respond anytime and give up k.
Hi t8,
All you gave was the handful of standard false interpreted passages that really just equate to you believing that Jesus was not an actual human.
Why don’t you try answering these questions,
What did this non flesh son of God empty himself of?
What part of the zygote that developed into an embryo, then a fetus that was then born an infant named Jesus was also a pre-existing non flesh son of God?
Hi Anthony,
I can’t stand it when that happens to me! I had a theory and tried it out in this post but it didn’t work so I deleted it. When I copy and paste scripture and it has a star symbol or a single quotation mark, not a double, I noticed that is when and where my post went wrong giving me all these crazy symbols. When I went back and edited those posts taking out those symbols the crazy symbols when away. When I just now added texts with a bunch of the star symbols though it came out fine, so apparently I don’t really know what is going on, lol!!
Hi Anthony,
YOU: For one thing men can’t forgive Sins and save you
ME: You are right men cannot but there is one MAN that did and can through the One True God.
According to the NEW TESTAMENT
Matt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,)Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 6: 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Hi Anthony,
Let me ask you the same question I asked t8,
Does the understanding and meaning of a passage change if the passage is actually speaking of Jesus when Jesus was on earth, verses the time of when you believe he pre-existed?
Also the context of the passage leading up to the verse in debate is asking us to be like minded with Jesus the Christ, and then the following verses in debate are giving the example as to how it is that we should be like minded with Jesus the Christ. Therefore if you are going to say that the verses being debated are speaking of the mind of a pre-existent non flesh one of a kind son of God, then one would have to argue that Paul is teaching us that we need to be like minded with a non flesh one of a kind son of God. Further context of this passage is about men who themselves were anointed with God’s Spirit, though to a lower degree, and they were not to have a mind that was of vein glory.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:Anthony we are told that upon the Spirit descending on Jesus like a dove He was then full of the Spirit, full of power. That is when he began to perform sings and miracles, that is when he began to forgive sins and heal people, that is when he raised the dead, walked on water, made water into wine, took small amounts of food and multiplied it to feed a host of people. That is WHEN “the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.”This is when the anointed Jesus was in the FORM of God, he was full of God’s power and Spirit. What did Jesus say to the people? He made himself of no reputation, he humbled himself, telling the people that he does nothing himself, Jesus gave ALL the glory to God. He took the form of a servant, though he was certainly in the form of God having the fullness of God’s Spirit and power. He emptied himself of his own will and followed God’s will. He as the anointed was indeed in the likeness of men, he could be tempted and he could die, unlike the angels, the other Sons of God. Jesus as the Son of God upon his anointing was made a little lower as they do not die. Jesus was willing to die, and let this mind be in you that was also in Christ, who said, “10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Isn’t such very similar to the mind that Christ needed to have going to the cross?Let this mind of Jesus the Christ, the seed of David, be in you, those receiving an anointing power from God. Let this mind be in you that was in the man that didn’t use God’s power to serve his own will. Let this mind be in you, where you are willing to die in order to be faithful to God.Hi Jodi
Progressive Revalation:
The things that God revealed to humanity were not all given at once. His revelation was given in stages. This is known as progressive revelation. The Apostle Paul wrote.
Now to the One who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but is now disclosed, and through the prophetic writings is made known to all the Gentiles, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith (Romans 16:24,25).
Paul made a distinction between the revelation which God formerly gave and that which He was presently giving.
The Old Testament Is Incomplete
Progressive revelation means that God did not unfold His entire plan to humanity in the Book of Genesis or, for that matter, in the entire Old Testament. The Old Testament revelation, though accurate, is incomplete. The fullness of certain teachings cannot be found in the Old Testament. I speak of Jesus Christ. We can’t know who Jesus Christ is fully until the New Testament. The Jewish people didn’t accept Him as the Messiah. In my next post, I’ll show scriptures that shows a fuller Revalation.
God bless
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