The Ordinary Jesus Brigade

This topic contains 2,013 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 17 minutes ago.

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  • #835305
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Here is the reconciliation:

    How do you reconcile A1 and A2 with B1, B2 and B3?

    A1
    1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall (appear) incorruptible, and we shall be changed (we and not our bodies).  We receive new bodies of the holy spirit and not of the human souls.
    Versus:
    B1(whether in body)(whether out of body)…caught up in the third heaven….paradise.

    B3
    2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Me: When we are absent from the body or “out of body” we are with the Lord. This occurs at our deaths, whether or not at Christ’s return (Heb 9:27).

    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Me: Being “out of body” in heaven means in heaven without a body. Thus corruption does not inherit incorruption. Our present corruptible bodies do not change.

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (spirits or individuals in spirit) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Me: “rest” here does not mean in a state of death where we know nothing.  “in body” means without a corruptible body. This has to mean the body that one gets after resurrecting spiritually when Christ comes back at the first resurrection. How come Paul doesn’t know if he is “in body” or “out of body”. It seems to be because he doesn’t know when Christ would be back when he would receive a new body. Would this be in his lifetime or after his death? He sees the vision of Paradise exclusive of whether he is there in spirit or in spirit and body.

    #835306
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    Thus:

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and “we” shall be changed.

    Me: Who is “we”? The “we” has to be the whole church. “we” is our spiritual essence with or without our bodies. Our spiritual essence is our minds with the heart of Christ in the holy spirit. It is “we shall change” and not our bodies will change. We will change because we will inherit new bodies.

    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (old bodies) inherit incorruption (new bodies).

    Me: Our old corruptible bodies do not change into incorruptible bodies.

    B2:
    2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    In Essence: When Christ returns, our bodies to be received are in heaven, not changed here on earth.  A house made without hands or human effort through sex.

    A2
    1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (Gal 5:24) shall (appear) first:

    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Me: This happens after these die physically first.

    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Me: Therefore the saints that had died to their bodies before the second coming of Christ appear first. Then those who die to their bodies at Christ’s return resurrect spiritually into the third heaven and then receive their new bodies. They appear second.

    1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed) 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    Me: We die of our mortal bodies and receive new bodies of this image. It will be a body of the seed of the holy spirit with eternal life and not of the spirit of the flesh and human spirit with temporal life.flesh

    You need to reconcile 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 as I have done and which you have not.

    #835307
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi:

     

    You:
    You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
    Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.

    Me:

    Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. 3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

    Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Me: The church grows into a royal priesthood and should search out hidden things. I am not impressed at all by your exegesis which is shallow with no lateral vision.

    #835308
     Truthcomber 
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    You Quoted me:

    You gave 2 Corinthians 12 and then said,
    “a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
    b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.
    A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).”

    You: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”.1 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Me: You got to be kidding. This is an example of your blindness and near slightness and tunnel vision.  The verse clearly that the vision is about a man caught up in the third heaven, which is paradise and there heard unspeakable words that must have come from God. Our focus here is on being resurrected into heaven when and how, not about unspeakable words. Who cares if this man (you are assuming that it Paul, which is probably true) heard speakable or unspeakable words as far as what we are focusing on, the resurrection, not on the humility of Paul speaking in the third person.

    You:
    :YOU Respond by saying: Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above.
    You are not making sense. Are you NOW saying that 2 Corinthians 12 does not mean what you thought it meant?

    Me: I rarely encounter  such poor thinking before. The reason I had not mentioned it here thoroughly is because I had mentioned it lots of time prior. So you have carry that thought over to here and to assume my position did not change. I never said or implied that I had I changed my position. In fact I had just mentioned Pentecost in the prior paragraph. There is no need for paragraphs that are wieldy and long.

    You quoted me: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”

    You: Is your problem in the fact I gave 1 Corinthians 12:1-7 and not just 1-4, and now the passage doesn’t fit into your doctrine?

    Me: Verses 5-7 have nothing at all to do at all with the resurrection and what we are thinking about. We are focusing on the resurrection, not on Paul’s humility. DA!!!

    You: What are you trying to say talking about line upon line? We can take one line from the bible and have it mean whatever we want, and find another line out of context and make it fit with the other we took out of context, you didn’t even do that you took 4 lines and tried to make it fit with your doctrine. Most are blind to what the NT says because they do not apply the OT to it, as did the so called “early church fathers”, instead they applied their love for Greek beliefs and philosophies. I dispute what people say often because they ignore the surrounding text of the chapter, they ignore what the chapter is saying and say they are pulling out hidden truth. They miss the entire message of the author, they miss the truth of the word of God, because they are searching for hidden meanings, and what they often create is just an absolute distraction from the truth that is actually being told.

    Me:

    Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    Me: This is how you understand scripture and how you don’t. This is not talking about taking one whole chapter and meshing it with another whole chapter. It addresses that a percept or concept and combining it with other concepts or percepts elsewhere in the bible to show a principle or enlightment. I guess you do not believe the Almighty but in yourself and vanity.

    The other reason for “verse upon verse” is:

    Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

    Me: The bible was to be understood by combining a little here and a little there, even if it is just a phrase. Searching for the truth this way was also to blind those that God has chosen to not understand the word of God.

    You: Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.

    Me: Another unsound statement by you.

    #835309
     Truthcomber 
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    You:

    I have spoken about 2 Corinthians 5 extensively. The verses are clear if you apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words. Romans 7 in particular makes it clear. Paul despised his own mortal body, he desired to have an immortal body. He knew that if he died and his body decayed (dissolved) he would rise from the Me: I have reconciled the scriptures.

    Me: You’re joking. You have not reconciled anything. You have not addressed how Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 ties in but does not produce no contradictions.

    You: dead receiving a heavenly eternal body becoming a heavenly man. He wanted to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY. He felt naked and ashamed in his mortal body, he knew that the law was spiritual but he was carnal sold in sin. He saw himself as a wretched man as that which he knew was good he could not do. He was repentant and saw the law as good and desired to follow it perfectly, but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him. Paul does not feel at home in his mortal body, he is not comfortable in it he loathes it, if he felt comfortable he would be separated from God enjoying his sins feeling right at home in his body. The BODY in which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5 is a MORTAL body that he is confident will be swallowed up into life.

    Me:
    You have not tied in 1Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:86 and how it fits with 1 Thes 4:16-17 and  1 Corinthians 15:52 without any contradictions, because the bible does not contradict itself.

    1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Me: We have borne the image of the first man which is of the earth, the dead in Christ. We will now bear the image of the heavenly which is not of the present body we have.

    Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

    Me: It is what is in Paul’s flesh  that causes him to sin.

    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;…

    Me: We have the dna from both the devil and Adam. When we follow the devil, he is our father, when we follow the holy spirit, we are the sons of God. The objective is to grow more in the spirit and less with it’s been lessened by the devil, for we are truly of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

    You: We follow the spirit or we follow the devil. We grow in the spirit of life or decrease in death of the spirit of life. Knowing Paul’s words throughout his writings we know that Paul never speaks of needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord, he desires to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY, one that is free from sin and temptation that does not in away separate him from God’s will. One day he will be absent from a mortal body, as that body will be swallowed up into life. One mortal body made into an immortal body, not having NO BODY at all.
    Paul goes onto speak of the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, of which Daniel speaks of,
    Daniel 12:2 And many (H7227) of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Me:Many” and not all are in this resurrection. Dan 12:2 corresponds with John 5:28 and not John 5:25. The “all’ in Dan 2 and John 5:28 are all of the remainder that was not in John 5:25 and the first resurrection. John 5:25 corresponds with all the dead saints up to Pentecost. 

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    You: Paul had faith that if he died and his body decayed he would WAKE from the DEAD unto eternal life with an immortal BODY, and he tells us directly from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 that this occurs at Christ’s return when the trumpet sounds.

    Me:

    No: Absolutely not. The body with the devil in it is not made immortal. You need to reconcile this with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 as I have done and which you have not.

    #835313
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
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    Good Morning TC,

    The essences according to YOU:

    B1
    Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    In Essence: Saints can be in the third heaven (paradise) with God, with or without a body. That is the percept that we need to focus on.

    ME: NO absolutely not, the passage above teaches us that men who are alive can receive visions and revelations in those visions they enter paradise and receive unspeakable truths. 

    MEN in a VISION can be in paradise in order to see and hear things. What Paul did not know, that God knew, was if when you are in a vision where you have been brought to paradise if it is received in the body or is it an out of body experience.  To try and then make the passage say that in ESSENCE as you put it, that it ALSO must mean that Saints can be in paradise with God with or without a body, is absolutely ludicrous. Paul did not know that A VISION that was RECEIVED by a person who was alive, if it occurred in the body or was it an out of body experience PERIOD.

    You:B2

    2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    In Essence: When Christ returns, our bodies to be received are in heaven, not changed here on earth

    B3
    2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    You: When we are absent from the body we are with the Lord. This occurs at our deaths, whether or not at Christ’s return.

    ME: Nice job TC of taking a passage out of context to make it fit with your doctrine. You forgot the beginning and the end of Paul’s words, and you also interpret that verse as if you are fully ignorant of Paul’s other words. The BODY that Paul is speaking of above is the MORTAL body that tempts man and separates him from God. Paul never spoke anywhere about being present with God you must have NO BODY at all. Paul was speaking of his current mortal body. Paul speaks in 1 Thess 4 directly telling us that the DEAD rise and MEET the Lord in the air and are given an immortal body. “will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Paul says the VERY opposite of what you say TC.

    Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    YOU: The alive of the dust at Christ’s return must die first before they receive new bodies.

    ME: NOPE, the mystery that we are given by Paul, is that not all men will die, those at Christ’s return will NOT, they will be changed. It is appointed for all men to die once, as we are all born MORTALS, but the mystery that Paul gives us is that those at Christ’s return who are his that are still alive do not end up dying, they end up going from mortal to immortal.

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    ME:TC you are just making stuff up. Paul directly tells us in 2 places the opposite of what you are saying. Likewise Paul tells us directly that he desired to be CLOTHED with an imperishable body, of which he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s return, not to go be with Christ and God in heaven without having a body at all when a person dies. Paul knew that if his mortal body died and dissolved he had a new body stored for him with God, and his faith as we are told directly by him is that he will receive an imperishable body at Christ’s return.

    1 thess 4 would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to share that which you say TC, but he DOES NOT. He says at the end of the chapter, “18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

    You TC, are encouraging the belief of falsehood, that when we die we go be with the lord in heaven without a body. Paul’s faith and hope was to BE CLOTHED with an IMPERISHABLE BODY and that is when he KNEW he was going to MEET CHRIST, and he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s second coming. 

     

    #835319
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Truthcomber. …..The change Paul is talking about is not a different “kind” of body ,but our same bodies are changed  from “mortal” to “inmortal”, just as he said, “for this corruptible must put “ON” incoruption, so whats being changed?, our present bodies from (coruption to incoruption) where does it say the body itself is done away with.

    Rom 6:5…. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the “likeness” of his resurection.

    Now how was Jesus raised, was it with a different “kind or type” of body,  NO, it was not, but was the same body that he had that became uncoruptible and immortal.  His same existing body went from mortal to immortal.  The same thing applies to  those who have died they will be given new flesh and bone bodies that can live forever, and they that are alive at his comming,  their bodies will simply become incorruptible and immortal.

    If our bodies were not needed , then there would be no need of a resurection of them at all.

    “For our hope (once we die)  is for the resurection, that will witness redemption of “OUR BODIES”.  Paul tells us.  And if we are still alive at his comming we hope that our present bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incoruptable, either way or present bodies need to put on imortality, as well as incoruption, then the grave has no power any more, just as it say, “for this corruption must put on incorruption, this mortal must put on immortality,  then will be brought the saying , “O GRAVE WHERE IS YOUR VICTOR. ” Did you notice it says “O GRAVE” , now what does the grave have to Deal with, the spirit or the Body. The body of course because the spirit goes BACK TO HIM WHO GAVE IT WHEN A PERSON DIES, the only thing the grave holds is the “BODY” and that is what is “resurected” that is what the resurection is all about.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

     

     

     

    #835324
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
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    TC…..I agree with Jodi, you are teaching falsehood. Your ‘essence’ arguments are simply your renditions, and are not proven nor grounded in scriptures, your switching subject matter of what Paul was actually saying to fit your own formulated doctrines. Forcing text is bad form TC. We try to draw our understandings from both the new and the old testements. If what you preach doesn’t fit both the new and old testements, it is highely questionable and we’ll should be. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

     

     

    #835336
     Jodi 
    Participant
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    Hi TC,

    What I see you doing with scripture is looking for hidden meanings, pulling out a verse or a few verses and say they mean something, pulling them away from the context within the rest of the passage destroying the truth of the passage and focusing on your made up hidden meaning.

    What you say below makes no sense,

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and “we” shall be changed.

    YOU: Who is “we”? The “we” has to be the whole church. “we” is our spiritual essence with or without our bodies. Our spiritual essence is our minds with the heart of Christ in the holy spirit. It is “we shall change” and not our bodies will change. We will change because we will inherit new bodies.

    ME: TC you ignore Paul’s words and take them out of context, you take Paul’s words and add additional meaning to them that is not there. Paul never spoke about being without a BODY and being without a body you are present with the Lord. He spoke of the mortal body which he didn’t feel at home in and he didn’t want to be in that body anymore, his DESIRE was to be CLOTHED WITH and IMPERISHABLE BODY.

    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

    52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    WE are those in Christ who receive a body of immortality when he returns, which includes those that were dead in Christ and those that are alive at his coming. The dead receive it first, then right after those alive receive it, all meeting Christ in the air to then forever be with him. 

    2 Corinthians 12 does not speak about being with God in paradise with or without a body.   WHY DON’T you read that entire chapter!! It would do you some good. You seem to be uninterested in WHAT passages are telling you and more interested in finding so called hidden meanings and creating your OWN doctrine. 

    5 Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities, 6 for if I may wish to boast, I shall not be a fool, for truth I will say; but I forebear, lest any one in regard to me may think anything above what he doth see me, or doth hear anything of me; 7 and that by the exceeding greatness of the REVELATIONS I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch. 8 Concerning this thing thrice the Lord did I call upon, that it might depart from me, 9 and He said to me, `Sufficient for thee is My grace, for My power in infirmity is perfected;’ most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of the Christ may rest on me: 10 wherefore I am well pleased in infirmities, in damages, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses — for Christ; for whenever I am infirm, then I am powerful; 11 I have become a fool — boasting; ye — ye did compel me; for I ought by you to have been commended, for in nothing was I behind the very chiefest apostles — even if I am nothing. 12 The signs, indeed, of the apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds, 13 for what is there in which ye were inferior to the rest of the assemblies, except that I myself was not a burden to you? forgive me this injustice! 14 Lo, a third time I am ready to come unto you, and I will not be a burden to you, for I seek not yours, but you, for the children ought not for the parents to lay up, but the parents for the children, 15 and I most gladly will spend and be entirely spent for your souls, even if, more abundantly loving you, less I am loved. 16 And be it so, I — I did not burden you, but being crafty, with guile I did take you; 17 any one of those whom I have sent unto you — by him did I take advantage of you? 18 I entreated Titus, and did send with him the brother; did Titus take advantage of you? in the same spirit did we not walk? — did we not in the same steps? 19 Again, think ye that to you we are making defence? before God in Christ do we speak; and the all things, beloved, are for your up-building, 20 for I fear lest, having come, not such as I wish I may find you, and I — I may be found by you such as ye do not wish, lest there be strifes, envyings, wraths, revelries, evil-speakings, whisperings, puffings up, insurrections, 21 lest again having come, my God may humble me in regard to you, and I may bewail many of those having sinned before, and not having reformed concerning the uncleanness, and whoredom, and lasciviousness, that they did practice.

    TC, we are to be like minded with Christ, Christ proved unrelenting faith, and we are to have faith also, that faith Paul speaks clearly about, that we believe we will one day be changed, we will be given a body like that of Christ, where we are no longer able to be tempted, we will be set free from the bondage that a mortal body brings us. The purpose of Christ is to bring us into FAITH in believing in the One True God. God was able to perfect a human, and we desire to also be a human that can following God’s will perfectly. As long as we are in our mortal bodies this is impossible, God only gave his glory to one mortal man, who then could pay the penalty for our sins. God had planned that through one man sin and death would come and through another man righteousness and eternal life. If we have faith in God’s WORK that He accomplished in the one man through an anointing of His Spirit, and we desire to have a body that will set us free to follow God’s will having no temptation like Jesus the Christ has now, then we shall receive that body upon his return.

    TC just listen to what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12, his infirmities make him humble, and as he speaks in other chapters as well, those infirmities and the sufferings and persecution he faces they make him desire God’s promise all the more. His knowledge of Christ and the faith it gives him in believing God strengthens him.  

    #835338
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
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    To ALL,

    We are told in Genesis that God made humans in His image. We are told that God set man OVER his creation to rule it.

    Genesis 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. 28 And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.’

    There existed at this TIME NO Son of God that was firstborn over all creation ruling over the earth. What DID exist was a promise, a covenant with humans that one of their own, a descendant of David, God would give His glory to, He would place His Spirit upon him in full measure and power and send him into the world.  This Son of David would become a Son of God called to fulfill ALL righteousness and then die on the cross to pay the penalty for all sins that occurred, through that suffering on the cross this man would be perfected and thus be the lamb without spot or blemish. He would then rise from the dead and receive an inheritance, he would receive authority over all the earth, being the firstborn of eternal life. This plan existed before God even made the earth and man, all things were created to fulfill righteousness, to bring man to eternal life, and it would be accomplished through an anointing of a human who would pay the penalty for all sins, he would rise from the dead and then bring others into eternal life. All of creation was created through and for this human and the humans to follow after him. 

    14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

    This is speaking of the man raised from the dead, who was PERFECTED upon going to the cross, he is now no longer able to be tempted, he is eternal as God is eternal, and thus he is the IMAGE of God and thus this man who shed his blood and was raised from the dead is NOW first-born of all creation. He is firstborn of eternal life. He has eternal life BECAUSE he overcame and followed God’s will going to the cross.

    NOTHING in Colossians is speaking of a being that was the image of God at the time of Genesis, this is speaking directly about the MAN who SHED HIS BLOOD, and it is speaking of who this man IS NOW, who he became as he rose from the dead. In this man who shed his blood all things were created, all things were created through God’s plan of him. To deny that is to be ignorant of God’s words and His promises, of which he revealed to prophets since the beginning.

    16 because in him were the all things created (the man who was PERFECTED and shed his blood), those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him (the man who God had promised, a servant who would be CALLED to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS), have been created, 17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted (him as in the man who shed his blood and now sits at God’s right hand having been given all authority, who is still called the Son of MAN). 18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that HE MIGHT BECOME in all [things] — himself — first, 19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself — having made peace through the blood of his crossthrough him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

    This entire chapter is speaking of the MAN that sits now at God’s right hand.

    You can’t have a firstborn who was made before Adam and Eve were made, the firstborn of which this chapter speaks is the perfected human made perfect going to the cross, who is called firstborn as we are told because he is the beginning -the firstborn of the DEAD. 

    Just absolutely ludicrious, antichrist to pull a verse out and not apply it to the surrounding text, our UNITY of faith is to know that the Son of God is the PERFECT MAN, the full measure of an anointing. The chapter tells you it is SPEAKING of the MAN that SHED his blood, and is speaking of who this MAN is NOW, and that God created all things through this MAN that SHED his blood, not some previous perfect being, but Jesus the Christ was perfected upon going to the cross. 

     

     

    #835341
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Jodi:

    I have transfer most if not all of my post on this and the prior page to: “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism”  Please respond there not to keep jumping back and forth.    Nether the less, we have gone over all your last comment to me two posts up and I do not wish to go over this unfruitfully again.  If you can reconcile  1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8, then I would like to discuss this with you.  This would be something new for you.  I will get back to you later in the week as I have other things to do.

    #835343
     Jodi 
    Participant
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    Hi TC,

    Yes it is unfruitful to go over the same thing over and over, you ask for reconciliation according to your false interpretation of what you call some true “hidden message”. For me there is nothing that needs to be reconciled there exists no contradiction when each of those verses you give are understood within the context of the chapter they are given in, as well as with other passages that also speak upon the same topics. Can you get that? Can you get how I cannot take your false doctrine and apply it to other scriptures, and then explain the contradiction it creates? What I CAN do and have done is take the verses you gave and understand them NOT according to YOU, but according to what the message is through the context they exist in.

     

    #835366
     Dig4truth 
    Participant
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    Jodi: “There existed at this TIME NO Son of God that was firstborn over all creation ruling over the earth.”

     

    Who then created the heavens and the earth?

     

    Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    #835367
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 71,005

    Hi Dig4,

    Ps 104.30

    Thou dost send forth thy Spirit, they are created;

    and Thou dost renew the face of the ground.

     

    It is all about the eternal and  creative Spirit of God everywhere, and working through human vessels.

    #835371
     Jodi 
    Participant
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    Good Morning Dig4truth,

    You said,

    Jodi: “There existed at this TIME NO Son of God that was firstborn over all creation ruling over the earth.”

    Who then created the heavens and the earth?

    Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    ME: In the OT when the Father is giving prophecy about the coming Messiah He also speaks of Himself creating heaven and earth. The Father created heaven and earth and He created it through and for the human who shed his blood. The Father created heaven and earth for the perfected human, the human of eternal life. The FATHER we are told established the END before He established the beginning, all things were created through and for this END, “Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

    Isaiah 42: 1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. 3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; 4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope.” 5 This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: 6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. 8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. 9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.”

    Dig4truth,  it is the resurrected Jesus who has been given rule and authority over all the earth, he is given this because he had been perfected through God’s Spirit. God’s Spirit created heaven and earth, and God’s Spirit created man and brought man into eternal life through perfecting the one servant chosen from among the people of the seed of David. We are told that Jesus is a righteous judge, he is such because we are likewise told that he was tempted as we were tempted and so he knows our suffering and can relate to us.

    Isaiah 42 not only tells us directly that our Heavenly Father created heaven and earth and man but it also gives the identity of the Christ, that he did not pr-exist but was a human servant who God anointed with His Spirit and called into righteousness and called to be a savior to Israel and the Gentiles.  

     

    #835373
     Dig4truth 
    Participant
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    Nick: “is all about the eternal and creative Spirit of God everywhere, and working through human vessels.”

     

    So are you saying the human Yeshua created everything before He was born? Sorry but your position is very confusing.

     

    #835374
     Dig4truth 
    Participant
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    Jodi: “In the OT when the Father is giving prophecy about the coming Messiah He also speaks of Himself creating heaven and earth.”

     

    There’s your first hint!

     

     

    #835376
     Dig4truth 
    Participant
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    Jodi: “The Father created heaven and earth for the perfected human, the human of eternal life.”

    Where is that in the scriptures? You understand that before Adam and Eve no human was created yet, right? So no human is eternal, they can be everlasting but to be eternal one must be God.

     

    Jodi: “it is the resurrected Jesus who has been given rule and authority over all the earth, he is given this because he had been perfected through God’s Spirit. God’s Spirit created heaven and earth, and God’s Spirit created man and brought man into eternal life through perfecting the one servant chosen from among the people of the seed of David.”

     

    So God’s Spirit created heaven and earth? So why does the Scripture say that Yeshua created heaven and earth? This is your second hint.

    Are you saying that Yeshua had nothing to do with creation because He was not born yet? Please explain. And if you are not saying that but that He was the Creator then how could that be before He was born?

    Both you and Nick are in the same tight spot.

     

     

    #835377
     Jodi 
    Participant
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    Dig4truth,

    Not sure what you are saying, did you read Isaiah 42?

    Our heavenly Father says that He created the heavens and the earth, and man. In this chapter He speaks of the Christ. He speaks of Christ as NOT existing yet. Christ could not be the person who created heaven and earth, when the passage tells us clearly that his FATHER DID.

    5 This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: 6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;

    “you” here is Jesus the servant who the LORD called into righteousness. The one that was called into righteousness DID not create the heavens and the earth, the LORD did.

    VERY STRAIGHT FORWARD!!

    #835378
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,646

    Hi Dig4truth,

    There is no tight spot here, lol!

    ME: “The Father created heaven and earth for the perfected human, the human of eternal life.”

    YOU: Where is that in the scriptures? You understand that before Adam and Eve no human was created yet, right? So no human is eternal, they can be everlasting but to be eternal one must be God.

    ME: There were no humans before Adam and Eve correct. Before Adam and Eve however God’s purpose and plan for creating heaven and earth was to bring humans into righteousness and eternal life. We are told that before time began God promised eternal life. How is it that we are able to have eternal life? It is through a HUMAN who was perfected through having been anointed with our Creator’s Spirit, and he died for our sins. Not only was eternal life planned but how we would obtain it was also all planned out before time began.

    Dig4truth, is not our Creator all knowing? His word from the beginning was eternal life for humans, that which our Creator speaks, as we are told cannot be unbroken, it will occur. We are also told that because of this what He says in regards to the future because it is such a sure thing it is as though it already exists. We are also told in the OT that it is our Creator’s Spirit, His WISDOM that created heaven and earth.

    Yes if you want to be technical our Creator is eternal and He gave Yeshua the Son of a human eternal life, where this Son of a human was born, died, and rose never able to die again. We too shall also receive eternal life. Being an eternal being, yes it is very different then being born and then receiving eternal life.

    There is NO scripture that says that Yeshua created heaven and earth, we are told that the Almighty Eternal God created heaven and earth through and for the human who shed his blood and was given eternal life and then rulership over all the earth.

    Dig4truth a father builds extra rooms in his house, he builds those rooms through his knowledge of the children he will have they don’t exist yet, and he builds these rooms for them. The rooms are built through and for these children who do not exist yet. Our Almighty Creator created heaven and earth through and for righteous human beings who would live for an eternity following His will.

    Yeshua is the beginning the firstborn of the dead. We are told that our Almighty Creator established the END before He even brought forth Genesis, ALL things were created through and for Christ, the man that shed his blood and brought eternal life, which was God’s WORD before He brought forth Genesis.

    Dig4truth we are told that Yeshua is still a human, we are told that a Son of a human sits right now at God’s right hand and he is coming to us in great power and glory.

     

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