John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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    Berean
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    “Ayez en vous les sentiments qui étaient en Jésus-Christ.” Si vous vous efforcez en toute humilité de comprendre quels étaient les sentiments de Christ, vous ne serez pas abandonnés dans les ténèbres. Jésus dit: “Celui qui me suit ne marchera pas dans les ténèbres, mais il aura la lumière de la vie” (YI 13/10/1892).

     

    Après que Christ ait consenti à abandonner Son autorité suprême, à descendre d’une hauteur infinie pour prendre l’humanité, il aurait pu prendre n’importe quelle condition de l’être humain qu’Il aurait choisie. Mais la grandeur et la hiérarchie n’étaient rien pour Lui, et Il choisit la forme de vie la plus humble. Bethléhem fut le lieu de Sa naissance. D’un côté, son ascendance était pauvre, mais Dieu, le propriétaire du monde, était Son Père.

    Dans Sa vie, il n’y eut aucun vestige de luxe, de commodités, de complaisance propre ni de plaisirs, mais ce fut une succession continuelle d’abnégation et de sacrifice personnel. En accord avec Son humble naissance, il n’eut apparemment pas de grandeur ou de richesse, afin que le croyant le plus humble ne puisse pas dire que Christ ne connut jamais ce qu’était l’angoisse de la pauvreté profonde. S’Il avait possédé l’apparence de l’ostentation extérieure, des richesses et de la grandeur, les plus pauvres auraient évité Sa compagnie. C’est pour cela qu’Il choisit la condition humble de la plus grande majorité des gens (MS 9, 1896).

    La foi ne doit pas reposer sur des évidences extérieures.

    La foi des hommes en Christ en tant que Messie ne devait pas reposer sur les évidences extérieures et ils ne devaient pas croire en Lui à cause des attraits de Sa personne, mais en raison de l’excellence de Son caractère qu’ils n’avaient ni ne pourraient jamais trouver chez un autre (2 SP 39).

    (Colossiens 2: 9; Éphésiens 3: 9; 1 Pierre 1: 11 et 12). Le mystère dans lequel les anges désirent plonger leurs regards.

    En Christ habitait toute la plénitude de la Divinité. Mais la seule manière d’atteindre les hommes était en voilant Sa gloire du manteau de l’humanité. Christ a toujours haï de tout Son cœur le péché, mais Il aimait ceux qu’Il avait rachetés avec Son sang. Il souffrit à la place des hommes pécheurs, en les amenant à être en communion avec Lui-même.

    Voilà le mystère dans lequel les anges désirent plonger leurs regards. Ils désirent connaître comment Christ put vivre et travailler dans un monde déchu, comment il put se mêler à l’humanité pécheresse. Pour eux, c’est un mystère que Celui qui haïssait d’une haine intense le péché puisse avoir la compassion la plus tendre envers les êtres qui commirent le péché (ST 20/1/1898).

    (Colossiens 1: 26 et 27). Un mélange inexplicable.

    Christ n’aurait rien pu faire durant Son ministère terrestre pour sauver les hommes déchus, si le divin ne s’était pas mélangé à l’humain. La capacité limitée de l’homme ne peut définir cet admirable mystère: le mélange des deux natures, la divine et l’humaine. Ceci ne pourra jamais être expliqué. L’homme doit s’émerveiller et rester silencieux. Et cependant, l’homme a le privilège d’être participant de la nature divine, et il peut ainsi, dans une certaine mesure, pénétrer le mystère (Lettre 5, 1889).

    Le plus merveilleux de la terre et du ciel.

    Quand nous désirons étudier un problème profond, nous concentrons notre esprit sur ce qu’il n’y eut jamais de plus merveilleux sur la terre ou dans le ciel: l’incarnation du Fils de Dieu. Dieu a donné son Fils pour qu’Il mourût d’une mort ignominieuse et honteuse pour les êtres humains pécheurs. Lui qui était le Commandant des parvis célestes, ôta Son manteau et Sa couronne de Roi, pour revêtir Sa divinité de l’humanité et venir dans ce monde pour être à la tête de la race humaine comme Homme modèle. Il s’humilia Lui-même pour souffrir avec la race humaine, pour être affligé de toutes ses tribulations.

    Le monde entier Lui appartenait, mais Il se vida si complètement de Lui-même qu’Il déclara durant Son ministère: “Les renards ont des tanières, et les oiseaux du ciel ont des nids; mais le Fils de l’homme n’a pas où reposer Sa tête” [on cite Hébreux 2:14 à 18] (MS 76, 1903).

    Christ au-dessus de toute loi.

    Le Fils de Dieu vint volontairement pour mener à bien l’œuvre de l’expiation. Aucun joug obligatoire ne reposait sur Lui, car Il était indépendant et au-dessus de toute loi.

    Les anges, en tant que messagers intelligents de Dieu, étaient sous le joug de l’obligation; aucun sacrifice de leur personne ne pouvait faire l’expiation pour l’homme déchu. Seul Christ était libre des exigences de la loi pour entreprendre la rédemption de la race pécheresse. Il avait le pouvoir de donner Sa vie pour la reprendre. “Existant en forme de Dieu, [Il] n’a point regardé comme une proie à arracher d’être égal avec Dieu” (SW 4/9/1906).

    (Exode 3: 5). L’humanité de Christ est une chaîne dorée.

    Christ se rendit obéissant jusqu’à la mort, même jusqu’à la mort de la croix, pour racheter l’homme. L’humanité du Fils de Dieu est tout pour nous. C’est la chaîne dorée qui unit nos âmes à Christ, et par Christ à Dieu. Ceci doit être notre étude. Christ était vraiment un homme, et Il démontra Son humilité en devenant un homme. Il était Dieu dans la chair.

    Quand nous abordons le thème de la divinité de Christ revêtue du manteau de l’humanité, avec justice nous pouvons prêter attention aux paroles prononcées par Christ à Moïse devant le buisson ardent: “Ôte tes souliers de tes pieds, car le lieu sur lequel tu te tiens est une terre sainte.” Nous devons aborder l’étude de ce thème avec l’humilité de celui qui apprend avec un cœur contrit. L’étude de l’incarnation de Christ est un thème fructifère qui récompensera le chercheur qui creuse profondément à la recherche de la vérité cachée (MS 67, 1898).

    6 (Jean 1: 1 à 3, 14). Voir le com. d’EGW sur Jean 1: 1 à 3; Apocalypse 12: 10. Égalité entre Christ et le Père.

    La position de Christ avec Son Père est celle de l’égalité. Ceci lui permit de devenir l’offrande pour le péché des transgresseurs. C’était pleinement suffisant pour magnifier la loi et l’exalter (MS 48, 1893).

     

     

    #862039
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hello All,

    Before John became an apostle writing down for us the word of God’s gospel, that word of God’s gospel was declared by God before the world was.

    Paul speaks of this gospel,

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    God’s gospel from the beginning according to the prophet Isaiah, was to be executed through the calling of a man, it is he that brings forth salvation.  Likewise we read from the prophet Isaiah that salvation comes through God sending a man out into the world upon God resting His Spirit upon him.

    So, in the beginning we have God’s word of LIFE, and God is LIFE, and God’s word was that by a man God’s word of LIFE would be executed/fulfilled. That same life is also for the man himself to receive, and he received it first as a firstborn of the dead. Such was the glory declared of God for man, before the world was.

    There is no life without the man, as the life comes through the man and the life is for the man, thus all things that God says He created alone, by himself, is by reason of and for this man.

    #862040
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    You didn’t answer my question.

    And if ye see the Son of man go up where he was before?

    Jodi

    the apostles saw Jesus ascending to heaven where he had been before

    Jodi
    Jesus was with the Father in the beginning

    This is also confirmed in John 6:46.

    “For no man hath seen the Father, save he that is of God. He hath seen the Father.”

    And also in John 1:14.

    And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; and we have seen his glory, a glory as the glory of the only begotten Son from the Father.

    1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried out, saying, This is he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is before me: for he was before me.

    And also

    18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

     

    God bless

    #862043
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    you see Jodi

    He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens…

    PSALMS 24  Jesus as king of glory  entering through the gates of the celestial city of God…40 days after his resurrection; IN THIS PSALM, HE IS NAMED JEHOVAH OF THE HOSTS(see Also Daniel 8:11)

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:7 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VHNSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYBV’a MLK HKBVD.
    Darby’s English Translation
    24:7 Lift up your heads, ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.
    Darby’s English Translation
    24:8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:9 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYB’a MLK HKBVD.
    Darby’s English Translation
    24:9 Lift up your heads, ye gates; yea, lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.
    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    THIS KING OF GLORY IS JESUS CHRIST PROPHETISED

    #862053
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Everyone,

    No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.
    It is ‘a tradition of men’ taught by ‘the systems of religion’.
    When studied: You can see “The Word” is really God’s Holy Spirit.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #862054
    Ed J
    Participant

    To All,

    No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.
    It is ‘a tradition of men’ taught by ‘the systems of religion’.
    When studied: You can see “The Word” is really God’s Holy Spirit.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #862069
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    We have pretty much the same discussion happening on multiple threads, lol. I saw earlier your quote from John 6 which applies to your post here on Ephesians 4.

    John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (makes alive); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Berean, the above passage is speaking of Jesus’s resurrection. The Son of Man of FLESH died, and then he was RAISED UP from the dead having been quickened/made alive by the power of God’s Spirit. Jesus was dead, in the grave, which according to king David’s words in the OT is equivalent to descending to the lower parts of the earth. The people saw him no more until he was RAISED UP from the dead having ascended from there being brought back to life on earth. 

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ

    me: this is speaking of our resurrection through our debt of sin having been paid.

    8 Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    me: this is speaking of the promise of the Holy Spirit coming down and anointing men to be apostles, healers, prophets after Jesus ascended to heaven

    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    Jesus fulfills all things not by having been a pre-existing being who came to earth being able to then do nothing of himself. He fulfills all things as a Son of Man who received God’s Spirit for the purpose TO set us at liberty, free us of our sins and thus free us from the penalty of death, where he does so by shedding his blood and dying (as king David speaks of death, he descended to the lower parts of the earth).  By his death he fulfills redemption bringing forth our promise to life, thus fulfilling all things, all the purpose to why God created heaven and earth in the first place, which you are told He did by himself, ALONE.

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Jesus isn’t perfect because he pre-existed, he was said to have been MADE perfect by LEARNING OBEDIENCE through suffering as he was being persecuted unto a death. The very fact that through God’s Spirit He was able to perfect a human is the very reason WHY God through one man brings us all to righteousness and life, as Jesus is our example of God’s work upon a human and what God’s Spirit accomplishes in a human.

    Do you get that??? It’s very profound. You think that God had to send a spirit son to earth to save us. NO! God saves through the power of His own Spirit. Jesus could do nothing of himself it was ALL God’s Spirit dwelling within his human flesh where God held his hand and kept him from sin, having called him to righteousness where he directed all his ways through His Spirit.

     

     

    #862074
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    “Jesus is not perfect because he preexisted, it is said that he was made perfect by learning obedience through suffering …”

    I never claimed to say that ….

    I know very well that Jesus being in the flesh walked by faith in his Father being filled with the Spirit and that he lived as we should live …

    But it’s still amazing how you want to IGNORE that
    Jesus preexisted before being made flesh. It is mind-boggling the zeal you develop to escape the fact that Jesus IS FROM ABOVE AND NOT FROM BELOW.
    IT MAKES ME SORRY TO SEE YOU BENDING THE TEXTS.
    TO MAKE THEM SAY WHAT THEY DON’T SAY

    #862080
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..Another perfect post. May God the Father continue to guide and strenthen you in the truth. Your doing a great Job sis.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #862082
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU:(Now that he ascended,

    ME: TO THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN

    what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    ME: HELL, GLORIFIED AS GODMAN IN THE SON OF GOD JESUS CHRIST AND REDEEMED ALL THOSE WHO ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL

    10 He that descended

    ME:JESUS, FROM THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN, PRE-EXISTED

    is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,

    that he might fill ALL THINGS .

    ME: NOW IN ORDER FOR JESUS TO FILL,

    ALL THINGS, with His spirit, “THE WORD”

    EVEN THOSE AT THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN, SUCH AS LUCIFER AND HIS REBELLIOUS ANGELS, US,  THE BEGINNING,

    HE DEFINITELY PRE-EXISTED Jodi! WHY:

    VERY SIMPLE, THUS:  AS MUCH AS JESUS ASCENDED TO THE FARTHEST BOTTOM OF EARTH TO REDEEM ALL  THE CONDEMNED,

    JUSTIFIED AS TRUTH, AND ETERNAL LIFE,

    HE HAD TO COMMENCE HIS TASK FROM THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN,

     PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT,

    JUSTIFIED AS THE BEGINNING,

    SINCE HE FILLED ALL IN HIS SPIRIT.

    NOT COMMENCE HIS TASK HALFWAY DOWN  IN THE PROCESS ON EARTH! OTHERWISE

    HE WOULD NOT FILL

    JUSTLY

    ALL THINGS!

    Read and ACCEPT THE PURE TRUTH Jodi:

    Colossians 1:1 5 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature:

    16For IN HIM were

    ALL THINGS CREATED IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH visible and invisible,

    whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers.

    All things were created by him and in him.

    17And he is before all:

    and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church:

    who is THE BEGINNING,

    the firstborn from the dead,

    (SPIRITUALLY DEAD, SINCE

    THE SPIRIT, 

    GIVES LIFE, AND FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE FACT THAT HUMANS WERE DEAD ON THEIR BIRTH, SINCE ADAM SIN, EVEN THOSE WHO DON’T BELIEVE IN JESUS NOW )

    that in

    ALL THINGS HE (IN HIS SPIRIT)

    may hold the primacy:

    ( THE FIRST HUMAN BEING WHO WAS BORN AGAIN IN

    HIS SPIRIT,

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN, JOHN3:3 SINCE THE FIRST ADAM DIED IN

    HIS SPIRIT,

    AND BY WHICH SPIRIT GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS IN

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN ON EARTH,

    THE SECOND ADAM, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, dead in his tomb,

    ORIGINALLY IN HIS SPIRIT, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    POURED and EMPTIED HIMSELF OF

    HIS SPIRIT, (He became poor and enriched HUMANITY,) 

    IN

    ALL THINGS as eternal life, 

    RESURRECTED) 

    I REPEAT BY HIS OWN SPIRIT!

    GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS.  John 13:31-32, John17:1

    GODMAN IN

    JESUS CHRIST 

    YOU: Jesus fulfills all things not by having been a pre-existing

    PURE LIES

    being who came to earth being able to then do nothing of himself.

    AS MUCH AS GOD THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF AS MAN. 

    UNLESS ACCEPT THE GENUINE FACT THAT

    JESUS THE SON, IS GOD THE FATHER, and 

    GOD THE FATHER IS GOD THE SON.

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father.

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

    in his embodiment

    YOU: He fulfills all things as a Son of Man who received God’s Spirit for the purpose TO set us at liberty, free us of our sins and thus free us from the penalty of death, where he does so by shedding his blood and dying

    ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT

    YOU: (as king David speaks of death, he descended to the lower parts of the earth).  By his death he fulfills redemption

    ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT

    bringing forth our promise to life, thus fulfilling all things, all the purpose to why

    God created heaven and earth in the first place, which you are told He did by himself, ALONE.

    PURE LIES, UNLESS YOU, ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS GOD’S EMBODIMENT, “THE WORD”

    GENESIS 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING (JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE BEGINNING,

    “THE WORD”) 

    GOD CREATED 

    HEAVEN, (THE SPIRITS)

    and EARTH (THE PHYSICAL)

    ALL IN THE SON. 

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #862085
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I apologize for a misinterpretation to your belief.

    I recall you saying that in order for us to be saved the pre-existing Jesus had to come down to earth.

    You say he emptied himself when he came, of what exactly did he empty himself of and what exactly was left that came with him down to earth?

    Jesus said he did not come of his own will.

    Also Jesus said he could do nothing of himself.

    So what was the point of him coming down to earth?

    What did he have that God needed to send in order for us to be saved?

    In order for us to be saved God had to anoint Jesus of Nazareth, the son of David.

    Scripture tells me that a man was anointed with God’s Spirit and then was sent out into the world specifically in order TO save us, set us at liberty. Without that Spirit, there is no saving. We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth. 

    You are the one in full denial here.

    First you deny prophecy of 1 Chronicles 17 and what you are told in Luke 1 and Romans 1. First you have a son of David and then God makes his son into His own Son. 

    The Son of Man has COME, thus was SENT, to save that which was lost, and he does so by being anointed with the full measure of the Spirit where he then is sent TO die for our sins bringing us eternal life.  Upon Jesus being begotten of God’s Spirit at the river Jordan, God declares at that moment “THIS is my beloved Son”. 

    You think God is calling him his Son at that moment because he pre-existed as an only begotten Son, that it has nothing to do with the fact that he was just begotten of God’s Spirit without measure?

    We also read that Jesus Christ IS called God’s only begotten Son who God sends to bring us eternal life. There is no eternal life without God having begotten Jesus with His Spirit and sending him out for the purpose TO save us. 

    YOU go and change the image of the Son of God and change the timing of the sending, DENYING the TOTAL OBVIOUS. Jesus of Nazareth the son of David God made him into His only begotten Son at the river Jordan and then sent him out into the world. 

    Berean, now you have totally misspoken according to my belief,

    YOU:It is mind-boggling the zeal you develop to escape the fact that Jesus IS FROM ABOVE AND NOT FROM BELOW.

    ME: Jesus Christ is ABSOLUTELY FROM ABOVE, He came from and was sent by God/heaven, He came from and was sent by the will of God/of heaven.

    You DENY that Jesus said that he was not of this world as they were not of this world, that they were sent out into the world like he was sent out into the world. If you are doing the will of the Father you are considered to be not of this world. If God has given you of His Spirit and has sent you to perform His will you are coming from God/heaven. 

    #862091
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    you

    I apologize for any misinterpretation of your beliefs.

    I remember that you said that for us to be saved, the pre-existing Jesus had to come down to earth.

    You say that he emptied himself when he arrived, what exactly did he empty himself of and what exactly did he have left to come down to earth?

    Jesus said he did not come of his own free will.

    ME
    good question
    What did he drain himself of?

    He lived in the form of God, Paul tells us…

    I don’t know how he emptied himself, but HE COVERED HIS DIVINITY.
    WITH OUR HUMANITY.
    IT IS THE WORK OF GOD BY THE POWER OF HIS SPIRIT.
    I DON’T PRETEND TO EXPLAIN THESE THINGS.
    I AM CONTENT WITH WHAT IS REVEALED.

    SEE PHILIPIANS

    JOHN 1

    AND “THE WORD” was made FLESH.

     

     

    #862093
    Berean
    Participant

    The Son of God was divine personne “in form of God”(in heaven) before HE come to earth

    “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person(God the Father)

    #862108
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    When Paul wrote Colossians Jesus was the Son of Man sitting at God’s right hand, was he not?

    When Paul wrote Colossians Jesus was sitting at God’s right hand existing in the image of the invisible God was he not?

    When Paul wrote Colossians was Jesus not in heaven sitting as firstborn overall creation into God’s eternal kingdom? YES, he was!

    Recall, prophecy Psalm 8, God would be mindful of a human being, God would visit this human being, he would make this human being lower than the angels for the suffering of death, and then crown this human being with glory and honor, and then give this human being dominion over all the works of God. The one who receives dominion is NOT the one who made that which he receives dominion over.

    Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who IS the image of the invisible God, the firstborn overall creation: 

    Recall, God’s Spirit was upon Jesus in order for him TO be SENT out TO set us at liberty.

    The WHO that IS in the image of the invisible God, sitting at the time Paul wrote this as the firstborn overall creation, is the MAN who SHED his blood. 

    Paul isn’t declaring who Jesus was at the beginning of creation, the creation mind you that we are directly told God created by himself, ALONE. Paul was speaking of who Jesus was and still IS at that moment he wrote to the Colossians. Paul just got done talking about partakers of the inheritance where they will join Jesus in the kingdom, and then he goes onto to tell them where Jesus now is upon him shedding his blood. 

    Berean, what do you do with the fact that prophecy tells you that a man would shed his blood for us and God says BECAUSE he did God gives him A PORTION with the great, where he divides that spoil with the mighty?

    Also what do you do with the fact that from the beginning was God’s word of a man who would be called to execute God’s purpose of salvation for Zion unto Israel’s glory? I don’t believe for one second that it was the pre-existing man speaking about himself because he pre-exited as “the word” in Isaiah 46.

    This man was IN the word from the beginning, and God created all things alone, by himself because of and for this man, as this man fulfills the purpose and this purpose is for him, where he then get’s to share it.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence first place.

    Jesus was NOT first place, he was not a firstborn over all creation UNTIL he shed his blood and became firstborn of the dead. 

    This beginning is the very beginning that Jesus is firstborn of in verse 15, which that should be obvious given the very context spoken just prior of a man who shed his blood, and we read the context in verse 18 is of the firstborn of the dead. 

    Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    There is NO firstborn yet. 

    Also,

    Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    There was no Son existing with glory in the heavens at the time Isaiah wrote this. 

    #862112
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Why are you telling me to see Philippians when I just went through it explaining many verses comparing them to your belief?

    Jesus upon receiving the full measure of God’s Spirit is he who was in the form of God. He was also like man in that he was able to be tempted having his own flesh desires, and he was able to die like all men. He was not like man because he could not sin, thus another example of how Jesus was in the form of God.

    I was hoping you could comment on the fact that Paul is asking people to be like minded with Jesus Christ. You really think Paul is telling people to be like minded with a spirit son who you say before he came to earth he was not a servant?

    The word became flesh and the people beheld the glory of the begotten Son filled with grace and truth. 

    <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>God’s word of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, 46, 61 was absolutely made true in Jesus’s flesh</span> when he was begotten of the Spirit at the river Jordan where he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the Lord, YES he sure was FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH. 

    Berean what you believe seems so empty to me.

    The people beheld the glory of Jesus because through God’s Spirit and all the powers he received, they heard him speak marvelous things, he knew their thoughts, he performed signs and miracles.

    You really think that they beheld the glory of Jesus because he pre-existed having come down covering his divinity? 

    <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>They beheld his glory because he WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD!!</span>

    The WORD in John 1 is God’s word of LIFE which is what God is, and that WORD of Life was in the beginning, and that WORD did not exist without the MAN who would bring that LIFE. All things were made by reason of the man who would fulfill that life, receive that life first and then share that life. God would have not made all things without the purpose of LIFE. He declared the END, the new beginning from the beginning we are directly told. <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The man Jesus, was in God’s word in the beginning</span>, not Jesus pre-existed and was created in the beginning.

    <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>One is direct truth given to you</span>, the other is a false belief from misinterpretation of passages where this very truth is not applied, and because of the misinterpretation the profound truth of passages is not seen or heard.

    Don’t forget, God created all things himself, alone, where He made man in His own image, declared eternal life before the world was, created earth and man not in vain but for earth to be inhabited where all flesh will come to worship Him.

    #862158
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Jesus upon receiving the full measure of God’s Spirit is

    he who was in the form of God.

    NO Jodi,

    JESUS WAS NOT IN THE FORM OF GOD ON HIS BAPTISM!

    GOD’S FORM IS NOT OF FLESH!

    GOD’S FORM IS OF SPIRIT!

    JESUS WALKED ON EARTH AS

    GOD IN FLESH

    Read scriptures:

    John10:33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou. being a man,

    makest thyself, God.

     

    Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is

    the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS)

    which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)

    was JUSTIFIED  in the SPIRIT, (Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)

     

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come. And he hath given us understanding that

    we may know the true God and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #862160
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    It is not the Holy Spirit

    that inspired you to say such things…

    Repent of not honoring the Father and the Son…

    #862161
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I do honor the Father and the Son, just because I don’t honor them according to your belief does not equate to me not honoring them at all. With that honor I give to them, I am greatly thankful to my heavenly Father for His promise that I am to be an heir of Him and a joint heir with Christ. I believe that promise has been sealed through the work that our Father accomplished in Jesus upon his anointing of the Spirit in full measure, as the result of that work was setting me free.

     

    #862162
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.

    ME: THAT’S WHY JESUS IS ONE OF A KIND.

    BECAUSE HE WAS “THE WORD”

    A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH.

    FURNISHED BY THE FATHER

    Hebrews 10:5Wherefore, when he cometh into the world he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:

    but a body thou hast fitted to me.

    Luke 10:22 All things(regarding the flesh)  are delivered to me by my Father.

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:

    and who the Father is, but the Son and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

    in his embodiment.

    THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER, 

    HEBREWS 1:3 Who being

    the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory and

    the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance and

    upholding all things by the word of his(FATHER’S) power,

    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO ANOINTED. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO SACRIFICE.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO REDEEMER.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

    WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO CHRIST.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

    Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is

    the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS)

    which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)

    was JUSTIFIED  in the SPIRIT,

    (Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)

    YOU: We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth.

    NOT PRECISE IN RELATION TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING REGARDING JESUS’DIVINITY!

    THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.

    THAT’S WHY LUCIFER/ SATAN REBELLED. HE CONCLUDED THAT GOD WOULD NEVER MAKE IT ON EARTH ONCE HE GOT HOLD OF THE FIRST COUPLE, AND CORRUPTED THE WHOLE PROCESS OF THE WORLD WITH HIS EVIL SPIRIT AND HIS DEMONS, AND OWNED THE POWER OF DEATH. ISAIAH 14:12-14

    Thus the Father sent His son Isaiah 6:8-11, Pinpointed out by Jesus in

    Luke 10:18And he said to them: I saw Satan like LIGHTNING falling from heaven. (Jesus was in Lucifer’s heart as his life source and to be under God’s power)

    The Father furnished His Son, GOD’S “WORD” with THE  FLESH, not to own for Himself, but to offer it as a sacrifice for the LOVE of the Father and God’s kingdom in ALL SOULS, one-third of the heavenly realms of LIGHT, Lucifer’s SUBSTANCE, THE LOST SHEEP. IN WHOSE HEART WAS  “THE WORD” ETERNAL LIFE, HE  REMAINED TRAPPED IN THEM, SIMPLY TO MAINTAIN ALL ALIVE BY

    HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. IN ORDER FOR THE SPIRIT OF THE SON TO BECOME THE PROPRIETOR OF THE PHYSICAL CREATION ALL IN HIM John 17:2 BUT THROUGH DEATH.

    BY WHICH DEATH THE FATHER IMMEDIATELY RECEIVED BACK WHAT HE FURNISHED HIS SON WITH, THE FLESH,

    THE SON OF MAN, GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

    IN RETURN THE FATHER IN THE HOLY GHOST GLORIFIED  ON THE CROSS GODMAN ON EARTH, 

    JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH 1John 5:20 

    FURNISHED  HIS SPIRIT,

    THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, IN WHICH SPIRIT WAS FUSED “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED, AND

    GAVE LIFE TO JESUS’S SPIRIT ORIGINALLY SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, ENGRAFTED IN ALL SOULS SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, BY WHICH SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY GAVE LIFE ALSO

    JESUS’ DEAD BODY, 

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    EMBODIED AUTHENTICALLY IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.

    THUS THE DIVINE BODY WHICH WAS FURNISHED BY THE FATHER TO

    “THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN FOR REDEMPTION, THE  BODY WHICH WAS GLORIFIED WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON THE CROSS, AND BACK TO THE FATHER,  WAS GIVEN TO 

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    ON JESUS’ RESURRECTION! WEll asserted in

    1Peter 1:3Blessed be

    THE GOD and FATHER

    of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:

    4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

     

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT, THAT SAME DAY AT 6 IN THE EVENING, BOTH THE RESURRECTED

    JESUS NOT YET PERFECT, SINCE IT WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, AND ONLY GOD IS PERFECT,

    AND JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS  

    GODMAN ON EARTH INTEGRATED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE, DIVINE/ HUMAN, not two anymore but  TWO IN ONE

    FLESH

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER

    JESUS CHRIST

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #862163
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I’ve tried to make the point that Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, he gave all credit of that which he was doing to God. If it is all God unto His work through Jesus by the anointing of the Spirit, then sending a pre-existing son holds absolutely no purpose in my eyes. Scripture tells me clearly that Jesus didn’t pre-exist, this just makes it further evident.

    Jesus himself tells us the very purpose for his anointing of the fullness of the Spirit, and one of the key purposes he tells us was for him to be sent out to set us at liberty/pay our debt.  Also he tells us that he was sent for the purpose to preach God’s word, and Jesus said that the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life.

    1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    We live through the words that God gave Jesus to speak as they are Spirit and they are life unto those who believe, and we live through Jesus as he set us free from the penalty of death. These both occurred not through sending down a pre-existing son into the world, they occurred through God having anointed Jesus with the full measure of His Spirit.

    God didn’t make a promise to send down an only begotten son to save the world.

    God DID PROMISE that He would be a Father unto a son of David, and God DID PROMISE that He would anoint Jesse’s son with His Spirit for the purpose of him to be SENT to speak God’s words, to deliver captives, to set us at liberty. 

    How perfect then it is that God’s word given to Jesus to say unto us is that Jesus IS the Son of Man who has COME/thus was SENT to save that which was lost. How perfect then it is that we hear God’s promise made true in Jesus concerning his anointing, and him having been begotten by God’s Spirit in full measure.

     

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