John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,881 through 19,900 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862165
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    “I tried to make it clear that Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, he gave all the credit for what he was doing to God. ”

    Me

    It seems to me that all Christians recognize this.

    YOU

    If it is all God who consecrates himself to his work through Jesus by the anointing of the Spirit, then sending a pre-existing son makes absolutely no sense to me. Scripture tells me clearly that Jesus did not pre-exist, which makes it even more obvious.

    Me

    This is false. By saying this you are preaching a false Gospel and therefore a false Christ.

    You

    Jesus himself tells us what the purpose of his anointing with the fullness of the Spirit was, and one of the main purposes he tells us was that he was sent to set us free and pay our debt. He also tells us that He was sent to preach the word of God, and Jesus says that the words He speaks are Spirit and Life.

    1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    We live through the words that God gave Jesus to speak, for they are Spirit and they are Life to those who believe, and we live through Jesus, for he has set us free from the death penalty.

    Me

    I’m not against that. But Jesus couldn’t have been sent if he was only one human because all humans are under the law when they come into the world and therefore including “the Jesus” that you preach.

    The true Jesus had no debt to the law of God and that is why He alone could be a candidateto save humanity.

    But that wasn’t the only condition.

    We had to “coat it up “/cover our humanity and lead a life of faith in the Father, resist Satan’s temptations and not sin.

    You

    These two things happened not by sending a pre-existing son into the world, but by having anointed Jesus with the full measure of His Spirit.

    Me

    Had he not been the divine SON OF GOD CONSENT, He was not in the first condition to save mankind.

    You

    God did not promise to send an only begotten son to save the world.

    Me

    That’s wrong again.

    Jesus said

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

    Paul says that Jesus is the Son of God, his OWN SON born of himself.

    Hebrews 1

    “and which, being the reflection of his glory and the imprint of his person”

    “For to which of the angels did God ever say, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be his father, and he shall be my son?”

    Jesus didn’t begin to be a son…when he came to earth, HE WAS ALREADY THE SON OF GOD WHO WAS WITH GOD

    AND WHO WAS GOD AND WHO SHARED THE GLORY OF THE FATHER BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. (John 1; John 17)

    Have in you the feelings that were in Jesus Christ,

    2:6 Who, being in the form of, hath not regarded being equal with God as a prey to be plucked up,

    2:7 But stripped himself, and took the form of a servant, and became like unto men, and appeared as a mere man,

    2:8 He humbled himself, being obedient unto death, even unto the death of the cross.

    GOD MUST REVEAL UNTO THEE PHILIPIANS 2

    Because it is the very basis of the Gospel, THE TRUE GOSPEL AND THE TRUE CHRIST.

    #862172
    Berean
    Participant

    GO TO THE SOURCE OF LIGHT

    The revelation of your words enlightens, it gives intelligence to the simple. (Psalm 119.130)

    It sometimes happens that men, though intelligent, educated and cultured, do not understand certain passages of Scripture, while others, who have not been educated, whose understanding seems limited, and whose thinking has not been disciplined, grasp its meaning, finding strength and comfort in what the former declared to be mysterious or unimportant. Why is this so? The last category is not based on one’s own understanding. They draw from the source of light, from the one who inspired the Scriptures, and with humility of heart, ask God for wisdom, and receive it. There are still mines of truth for the fervent seeker to discover.

    Christ represented truth by a treasure hidden in a field. It does not lie on the surface; we must dig for it. But our success does not depend so much on our intellectual capacity as on our humility of heart and faith in seizing divine help.

    Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we will always be in danger of doing violence to the Scriptures or misinterpreting them. Some readings from the Bible may even sometimes prove to be useless or harmful. When the word of God is opened without reverence and prayer; when thoughts and affections are not fixed on God, or are not in harmony with his will; then thought is veiled by doubt, and skepticism is reinforced in the very study of the Bible. The enemy takes control of thoughts and suggests interpretations that are not correct.

    When men do not seek, in word and deed, to remain in harmony with God, then, no matter what their instruction, they are likely to err in their understanding of Scripture, and it is unwise to trust their explanations. When we truly seek to do God’s will, the Holy Spirit makes the principles of His word become the principles of life, writing them on the tablets of the soul. And only those who follow the light already granted can hope to receive another illumination of the Spirit.

    #862173
    Berean
    Participant

    The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”. He who shared all the glory with the Father left it aside, and was made flesh. He left his divine way of life aside, and took the way of man, and God manifested Himself in the flesh. This truth is the very foundation of all truth. For surely it is not to angels that he helps, but to the seed of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest without the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people; for having been tempted himself in the things which he suffered, he can help those who are tempted” (Hebrews 2:14-18). But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor for the death which he suffered, that by the grace of God he might suffer death for all” (Hebrews 2:9).

    #862174
    Berean
    Participant

    Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest without the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people;(Hebrews 2)

     

    Jesus was made what he wasn’t.

    He existed “in the form of God”

    But to be our High Priest HE HAS TO BE MADE SEMBLE TO HIS BROTHERS BY PARTICIPATING IN BLOOD AND FLESH.

    #862181
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: THUS THE PROBLEM MIKE IS THAT

    YOU, JODI, and GENE 

    DONT KNOW WHO THE MASTER IS.
    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

    Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

    I REPEAT: In the above Mike

    WHO SERVES WHO?
    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    Jesus is the servant, Carmel.  His and our God, YHWH, is the Master.  Hebrews 1:13 is a case of the Master granting His servant the prestigious right hand position beside Him, and using His almighty power to fight His servant’s enemies on behalf of His servant.  Much like the Master used His power to fight the enemies of His servant Israel on many occasions.

    #862182
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  God’s word from the beginning was a man who in him is life?

    No.  Jesus, who has as one of his many titles “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman, was with his and our God in the beginning, and later was made flesh and dwelt upon the earth for a while.  The Word of God was not a man in the beginning, but was made so about 4000 years after the creation of the world.

    #862183
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son. So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son. Is that your claim?

    Kathi:  The OO, before asexual reproduction begins, is one living organism. The OO (as if the OO has a mind) decided to begin asexual reproduction. At that moment, the OO begins changing from one living organism to becoming two distinct living organisms. Since the process is asexual reproduction, both of the organisms will be replicas of the OO EXCEPT both will have one original DNA strand and one new complimentary DNA strand, therefore neither the FO or the SO are exactly what the OO was. The process of asexual reproduction changed the OO into a FO and a SO. THE OO did change.

    1. God doesn’t change.

    2. You still have one entity in existence before the second entity came into existence.

    3. You still have a second entity brought into existence via actions performed by the original entity.

    4.  You have an original entity made up of F and S, which then becomes two entities – each of them made up of F and S.

    5.  You end up with two completely identical entities, indicating that YHWH and Jesus are completely identical in every single way.

     

     

     

    #862184
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Mike your understanding cannot be correct, because it works against other clear passages. Isaiah tells you that all flesh will come to worship God. David tells you he died having his flesh rest in hope. Ezekiel tells you that the dry bones shall live where God will give people a heart of flesh and by His Spirit He will cause those with a heart of flesh to walk in His ways, which Paul tells us that those that are Led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. We are also told by Paul that we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones.

    My understanding doesn’t work against any passage of which I’m aware.  Perhaps you can list the actual scriptures (one at a time) that you reference here, and let’s see.  Are you thinking that all will be the same after the resurrection?  There will still be flesh and blood human beings, and spirit entities just as there are right now.

    Jodi:  NO scripture says that we are made like the angels in the means of being made into spirit beings. 

    John 3:7-8

    Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. 

    Jodi, do you suppose God and His angels are flesh beings?  I imagine not.  So then you must believe that Jesus is the only flesh and blood creature existing in a heaven filled with spirit entities?  Is that correct?

     

    #862185
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Mike,

    This below scripture tells you directly that a man was in God’s word in the beginning,

    Isaiah 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    God gave WORD in the beginning of things not yet done, that WORD not yet done declared in the beginning was a man who would come and execute God’s purpose, which that purpose was to bring salvation, to bring LIFE.

     

    #862187
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    John 3:7-8

    Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

    Jodi, do you suppose God and His angels are flesh beings? I imagine not. So then you must believe that Jesus is the only flesh and blood creature existing in a heaven filled with spirit entities? Is that correct?

    Me:  Acts tells you that upon Jesus being raised from the dead where his flesh was not allowed to see decay, where he was raised in glory, that he was begotten by God on that day, made incorruptible of power.

    Also you are told that he received upon rising the promised Holy Spirit, and the promises of the mercies of David. He then appeared to many and said that he was not a spirit, he was of flesh and bones. Likewise you are told that Jesus is going to sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit (Romans 1).

    Jesus isn’t filled with spirit entities, he is filled with God’s Spirit and that Spirit contains all the fruits that cause a man to be righteous.

     

    #862188
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  I do not get at all what you mean by me speaking a contradiction. Today a virgin can have a baby through artificial insemination, so the ability to be born of a virgin is actually no longer unique.

    Inseminated with what, exactly?  Male human sperm, right?  Who provided the male human sperm for Mary’s insemination?  The coming anointed one was foretold to be born of a virgin, right?  So then not a matter of, “God will send a messiah someday, who will come into this world by a normal mother and father just like every other human comes into the world”, right?  No, this prophesied anointed one WOULD BE (long before he arrived) DIFFERENT than any other human being – because he would be born of a virgin.  See Jodi?  They already knew ahead of time that he would be one of a kind.  Now consider…

    Luke 3:23 King James Bible
    And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…

    What do the words “as was supposed” mean in this verse?  Why are those words there?

    Hopefully you can now see that Jesus was indeed one of a kind, although he was “made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2:7) and was sent “in the likeness of sinful man” (Romans 8:3).

    #862189
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Jesus isn’t filled with spirit entities…

    So then your answer is yes, right?  You DO believe that Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God right now, is the only flesh and blood human being dwelling in heaven where every other being is not flesh and blood, but a spirit entity?

    #862190
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi, what happened to John 17:5?  Is it true that Jesus prayed to his God to be restored to the glory he had alongside his God before the world began?

    #862191
    Berean
    Participant

    IN THE BIGINNING WAS “THE WORD” AND “THE WORD” WAS            WITH THE GOD AND “THE WORD “WAS GOD.

    HERE IS THE TRUE WORD

    OF GOD  NOT THE JODI’S WORDS

    WHICH ARE PERVERTED BY A SES SEDUCTOR SPIRIT THAT MISLEADS UNSETTLED SOULS…

     

     

    #862192
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike and All,

    Yehovah gave WORD not yet done also that He would raise up a prophet from among brethren, God would put His WORD in his mouth, and whoever did not believe in this prophet and the word of God that he would give, would be destroyed.

    Yehovah gave WORD not yet done to prophets and they spoke about this coming man where he would receive dominion over all the works Yehovah had made. Mike you are directly told that Yehovah created all things alone, by himself in Isaiah 44 and 45.

    Psalms 8: 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

    A HUMAN is promised to receive dominion Mike, it’s the same human of God’s word from the beginning who would come and execute God’s purpose.

    Hebrew 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    by -dia,

    popular meaning  to the word dia, BY REASON OF, ON ACCOUNT OF

    God’s Son in the above verse, did not speak to us God’s word until “these last days”, prior the prophets gave God’s word.

    If God before the world was promised eternal life, and also His WORD was that a man would execute this purpose, wouldn’t God have made all things BY REASON OF, ON ACCOUNT OF this MAN?

    Also if this same man that was to come and execute God’s purpose is promised to received dominion over all the works God had made by himself, wouldn’t God have been making all things for this man?

     

     

    #862193
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    Hebrew 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    by -dia,

    popular meaning to the word dia, BY REASON OF, ON ACCOUNT OF

    ME

    Jodi

    No, it’s not the most popular popular meaning

    1223

    dia
    dia
    dee-ah ‘

    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional): – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in , by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

     

    dia
    dia
    dia
    Matt 1:22, Matt 2:5, Matt 2:15, Matt 2:23, Matt 4:4, Matt 4:14, Matt 6:25, Matt 7:13, Matt 8:17, Matt 8:28, Matt 10:22, Matt 12:1, Matt 12:17, Matt 12:27, Matt 12:31, Matt 13:5, Matt 13:6, Matt 13:13, Matt 13:21, Matt 13:35, Matt 13:52, Matt 13:58, Matt 14:2, Matt 14:3, Matt 14:9, Matt 15:3, Matt 15:6, Matt 17:20, Matt 18:10, Matt 18:23, Matt 19:12, Matt 19:24, Matt 21:4, Matt 21:43, Matt 23:14, Matt 23:34, Matt 24:9, Matt 24:12, Matt 24:15, Matt 24:22, Matt 24:44, Matt 26:61, Matt 27:9, Matt 27:18, Mark 2:4, Mark 2:23, Mark 2:27, Mark 2:27, Mark 3:9, Mark 4:5, Mark 4:6, Mark 4:17, Mark 5:4, Mark 6:2, Mark 6:6, Mark 6:14, Mark 6:17, Mark 6:26, Mark 7:29, Mark 9:30, Mark 10:1, Mark 10:25, Mark 11:16, Mark 11:24, Mark 12:24, Mark 13:13, Mark 13:20, Mark 14:58, Mark 15:10, Mark 16:20, Luke 1:70, Luke 1:78, Luke 2:4, Luke 4:30, Luke 5:19, Luke 5:19, Luke 5:19, Luke 6:1, Luke 8:4, Luke 8:6, Luke 8:19, Luke 9:7, Luke 11:8, Luke 11:8, Luke 11:19, Luke 11:49, Luke 12:22, Luke 13:24, Luke 14:20, Luke 17:11, Luke 18:5, Luke 18:25, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:11, Luke 21:17, Luke 23:8, Luke 23:19, Luke 23:25, John 1:17, John 1:17, John 1:31, John 2:24, John 3:29, John 4:4, John 4:39, John 4:41, John 4:42, John 5:16, John 5:18, John 6:57, John 6:65, John 7:13, John 7:22, John 8:47, John 8:59, John 9:23, John 10:1, John 10:2, John 10:17, John 10:19, John 10:32, John 11:42, John 12:9, John 12:18, John 12:27, John 12:39, John 12:42, John 13:11, John 14:11, John 15:3, John 15:19, John 15:21, John 16:15, John 16:21, John 17:20, John 19:11, John 19:38, John 19:42, John 20:19, Acts 1:2, Acts 1:16, Acts 2:16, Acts 2:23, Acts 2:25, Acts 2:26, Acts 2:43, Acts 3:18, Acts 3:21, Acts 4:2, Acts 4:21, Acts 4:25, Acts 4:30, Acts 5:12, Acts 5:19, Acts 7:25, Acts 8:11, Acts 8:18, Acts 8:20, Acts 9:25, Acts 9:32, Acts 10:36, Acts 10:43, Acts 11:28, Acts 11:30, Acts 12:9, Acts 12:20, Acts 13:38, Acts 14:3, Acts 14:12, Acts 14:22, Acts 15:7, Acts 15:11, Acts 15:23, Acts 15:27, Acts 15:32, Acts 16:3, Acts 16:9, Acts 17:10, Acts 18:2, Acts 18:3, Acts 18:27, Acts 18:28, Acts 19:11, Acts 19:26, Acts 20:3, Acts 20:28, Acts 21:4, Acts 21:19, Acts 21:34, Acts 21:35, Acts 23:31, Acts 24:3, Acts 24:3, Acts 27:4, Acts 27:9, Acts 28:2, Acts 28:2, Acts 28:18, Acts 28:20, Acts 28:25, Rom 1:2, Rom 1:8, Rom 1:12, Rom 1:26, Rom 2:12, Rom 2:16, Rom 2:23, Rom 2:27, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:22, Rom 3:24, Rom 3:25, Rom 3:25, Rom 3:27, Rom 3:27, Rom 3:30, Rom 3:31, Rom 4:13, Rom 4:13, Rom 4:16, Rom 4:25, Rom 4:25, Rom 5:1, Rom 5:5, Rom 5:10, Rom 5:11, Rom 5:12, Rom 5:12, Rom 5:17, Rom 5:17, Rom 5:19, Rom 5:19, Rom 5:21, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:4, Rom 6:4, Rom 6:19, Rom 7:4, Rom 7:5, Rom 7:7, Rom 7:8, Rom 7:11, Rom 7:13, Rom 7:13, Rom 7:25, Rom 8:3, Rom 8:10, Rom 8:11, Rom 8:20, Rom 8:37, Rom 10:17, Rom 11:28, Rom 12:1, Rom 12:3, Rom 13:5, Rom 13:5, Rom 13:6, Rom 14:15, Rom 14:20, Rom 15:4, Rom 15:9, Rom 15:15, Rom 15:30, Rom 15:30, Rom 15:32, Rom 16:18, Rom 16:26, Rom 16:27, Rom 16:27, 1 Cor 1:1, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 1:21, 1 Cor 2:10, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 4:10, 1 Cor 4:15, 1 Cor 4:17, 1 Cor 6:14, 1 Cor 7:2, 1 Cor 7:5, 1 Cor 7:26, 1 Cor 9:23, 1 Cor 10:1, 1 Cor 10:25, 1 Cor 10:27, 1 Cor 11:9, 1 Cor 11:9, 1 Cor 11:10, 1 Cor 11:10, 1 Cor 11:12, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 12:8, 1 Cor 14:9, 1 Cor 14:19, 1 Cor 15:57, 1 Cor 16:24, 2 Cor 1:1, 2 Cor 1:4, 2 Cor 1:5, 2 Cor 1:11, 2 Cor 2:4, 2 Cor 3:4, 2 Cor 3:7, 2 Cor 3:11, 2 Cor 4:1, 2 Cor 4:5, 2 Cor 4:11, 2 Cor 4:14, 2 Cor 4:15, 2 Cor 5:7, 2 Cor 5:7, 2 Cor 5:10, 2 Cor 5:18, 2 Cor 6:7, 2 Cor 6:8, 2 Cor 6:8, 2 Cor 7:13, 2 Cor 8:5, 2 Cor 8:8, 2 Cor 8:18, 2 Cor 9:12, 2 Cor 9:13, 2 Cor 9:14, 2 Cor 10:1, 2 Cor 10:9, 2 Cor 11:33, 2 Cor 11:33, 2 Cor 13:10, 2 Cor 13:14, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:15, Gal 2:1, Gal 2:4, Gal 2:16, Gal 2:19, Gal 2:21, Gal 3:14, Gal 3:26, Gal 4:7, Gal 4:23, Gal 5:13, Eph 1:1, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:7, Eph 1:15, Eph 2:4, Eph 2:8, Eph 2:16, Eph 3:6, Eph 3:9, Eph 3:10, Eph 3:12, Eph 3:16, Eph 3:17, Eph 4:6, Eph 4:16, Eph 4:18, Eph 4:18, Eph 5:6, Eph 5:17, Eph 6:13, Eph 6:18, Eph 6:24, Php 1:7, Php 1:11, Php 1:15, Php 1:19, Php 1:20, Php 1:20, Php 1:26, Php 2:30, Php 3:7, Php 3:8, Php 3:9, Col 1:1, Col 1:5, Col 1:9, Col 1:14, Col 1:20, Col 1:22, Col 2:8, Col 2:12, Col 2:19, Col 4:18, 1 Th 2:13, 1 Th 3:5, 1 Th 3:7, 1 Th 3:7, 1 Th 4:2, 1 Th 4:14, 1 Th 5:9, 1 Th 5:13, 2 Th 2:2, 2 Th 2:2, 2 Th 2:11, 2 Th 2:14, 2 Th 2:15, 2 Th 3:12, 2 Th 3:14, 2 Th 3:16, 1 Ti 1:16, 1 Ti 2:15, 1 Ti 4:5, 1 Ti 4:14, 1 Ti 5:23, 2 Ti 1:1, 2 Ti 1:6, 2 Ti 1:10, 2 Ti 1:10, 2 Ti 1:14, 2 Ti 2:2, 2 Ti 2:10, 2 Ti 2:10, 2 Ti 3:15, Titus 3:5, Titus 3:6, Phm 1:7, Phm 1:9, Phm 1:15, Phm 1:22, Phm 1:25, Heb 1:9, Heb 1:14, Heb 2:1, Heb 2:3, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:10, Heb 2:14, Heb 2:15, Heb 3:16, Heb 5:3, Heb 5:12, Heb 5:14, Heb 6:12, Heb 6:18, Heb 7:9, Heb 7:11, Heb 7:18, Heb 7:21, Heb 7:23, Heb 7:24, Heb 9:11, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:14, Heb 9:15, Heb 9:26, Heb 10:2, Heb 10:10, Heb 10:20, Heb 11:29, Heb 11:33, Heb 11:39, Heb 12:15, Heb 13:2, Heb 13:11, Heb 13:12, Heb 13:21, Heb 13:22, Heb 13:25, Jam 2:12, Jam 4:2, 1 Pe 1:5, 1 Pe 1:7, 1 Pe 1:12, 1 Pe 1:22, 1 Pe 1:23, 1 Pe 2:5, 1 Pe 2:13, 1 Pe 2:19, 1 Pe 3:1, 1 Pe 3:14, 1 Pe 4:11, 1 Pe 5:12, 2 Pe 1:3, 2 Pe 1:3, 2 Pe 1:4, 1 Jo 2:12, 1 Jo 3:1, 1 Jo 4:5, 2 Jo 1:2, 2 Jo 1:12, 3 Jo 1:10, 3 Jo 1:13, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:9, Rev 1:9, Rev 2:3, Rev 4:11, Rev 6:9, Rev 6:9, Rev 7:15, Rev 12:11, Rev 12:11, Rev 12:12, Rev 13:14, Rev 18:8, Rev 18:10, Rev 18:15, Rev 20:4, Rev 20:4

     

    What if we sounded all those

    passages where there’s the word “dia”

    I’ve already checked a few of them

    but you’d have to control everything.

     

     

     

    #862194
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: So then your answer is yes, right? You DO believe that Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God right now, is the only flesh and blood human being dwelling in heaven where every other being is not flesh and blood, but a spirit entity?

    ME: I spoke and explained this to you in a post earlier directed to you.

    Jesus is said to be flesh and bone not flesh and blood. In the OT we are told that the LIFE of the flesh is of the BLOOD, but in the resurrection our life is by the water and of the Spirit.

    I am never going to turn by back on God’s declaration that He made HUMAN BEINGS in His own image.

    I believe Paul’s word from God that God created each kind of living soul having designed each one for it’s own glory. Each kind of living creature on earth has it’s own kind of flesh. A fish does not grow into a bird, nor does a mouse grown up to be a tiger, nor does the seed of wheat grow to become barley or any other type of grain other then wheat. The same is true for human beings, God designed our specific kind of flesh to have it’s own glory.

    Jesus’s flesh did not see decay, it was raised in glory, raised in power, raised incorruptible, where he will sit on an eternal throne of his father David according to the flesh, being a Son of God according to the Spirit.

    Paul tells us that those who are celestial have their own kind of body and they have their own glory, and such is true for those that are terrestrial they have their own kind of body designed for their own glory.

    Jesus is promised an eternal throne on EARTH. You are told God who made all things by himself made earth and man not in vain, but for the earth to be inhabited where all flesh come to worship Him. You are told that the dry bones shall live, God will give them a heart of flesh and put His Spirit within them and they will walk in all His ways.

     

     

    #862195
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I did not say it was the MOST popular, I said it is a popular meaning, TRUE to this day. 

    example,

    A father is expecting a son to be born, he designs and creates a nursery for him, that which he designs and that which he is creating he is doing it BY REASON OF his son that is going to come and FOR his son that is going to come.

     

    #862196
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Ok Mike, I’m planning on giving this some time today with you if you are available. Here goes:

    Mike said:

    Mike: And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son. So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son. Is that your claim?

    Kathi:  The OO, before asexual reproduction begins, is one living organism. The OO (as if the OO has a mind) decided to begin asexual reproduction. At that moment, the OO begins changing from one living organism to becoming two distinct living organisms. Since the process is asexual reproduction, both of the organisms will be replicas of the OO EXCEPT both will have one original DNA strand and one new complimentary DNA strand, therefore neither the FO or the SO are exactly what the OO was. The process of asexual reproduction changed the OO into a FO and a SO. THE OO did change.
    1. God doesn’t change.

    2. You still have one entity in existence before the second entity came into existence.

    3. You still have a second entity brought into existence via actions performed by the original entity.

    4.  You have an original entity made up of F and S, which then becomes two entities – each of them made up of F and S.

    5.  You end up with two completely identical entities, indicating that YHWH and Jesus are completely identical in every single way.

    LU’s (my) answers:

    Regarding this question of Mike’s: And if the first one was a combination of Father and Son from the beginning, then the second one is an identical combination of Father and Son. So now we have two Gods who are both a combination of Father and Son. Is that your claim?

    LU: The OO is the potential Father and Son from the beginning, once asexual reproduction begins, the Father’s role begins and the Son’s role begins. The FO is the same type of cell as the SO and they are the same type of cell as the OO before asexual reproduction began. However, they do not have the same original DNA strand of the OO but only each have one side of the original DNA strand of the OO.

    Did that make the OO change, well not in type or function or character. Does an actual cell change in type of function or character when it goes through asexual reproduction during binary fission…no. Btw, God is said to “change” His mind Mike, so just because you see the word “change” doesn’t mean that God didn’t go from non-creator to creator or non-begetter to begetter for instance.

    Number 2 and 3, there is one cell in existence before it becomes two. That one cell that first existed reproduced into a second, that is true. My main point is not that one cell existed before reproduction, my main point is that both cells are identical in age according to their substance, i.e. DNA, nucleus, etc. They are also identical in type and purpose and character.

    Number 4 and 5

    You (Mike) said:

    4.  You have an original entity made up of F and S, which then becomes two entities – each of them made up of F and S.

    5.  You end up with two completely identical entities, indicating that YHWH and Jesus are completely identical in every single way.

    I would reword your #4 to say this: Suppose I have an “eternal” existent original entity, the OO. It is made up of the potential F and S . Only after the asexual reproduction begins does it begin being father and son, which then, after the begetting, becomes two entities-each of them with asexual reproduction potential, just like the OO that was eternally existent. They don’t exercise that potential to make a second generation though. If they did, the FO would not have an “only begotten” son but the first of other sons. If the SO did go through the asexual reproduction, the offspring would not have either strand of the original DNA of the “eternal” OO within it and would not be considered the same eternal age as the FO or the SO. That is why the same eternal age can only occur during the first generation of reproduction of one son. I am using the word “eternal” not because the first OO is actually eternal organism but a first original organism is created. I am only using the term as if the OO was eternal just for the analogy sake.

    Number 5, yes you end up with two completely identical entities, indicating that YHWH the God of gods and YHWH, the Lord of lords are completely identical in every single way except with different relationships to each other. One is a father the other is a son. One is the begetter, the other is the begotten…still identical in type, function and character and age. Both are inter-dependently the fullness of the one OO after asexual reproduction begins. One God inter-dependently in two persons, united as one spirit.

    I hope this helps. LU

    #862197
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Apply God’s word with God’s word and the truth should be obvious.

    Our heavenly Father’s word from the beginning was that a man was going to come and execute God’s purpose which was salvation and life.

    Our heavenly Father’s word was that He created all things alone, by himself, and that He promised to give a HUMAN BEING dominion overall that He created.

    Our heavenly Father’s word was of a man to come who would shed his blood to bring forth salvation, and because he obeyed God’s command unto his death, God promised to give him a portion with the great, and have him divide the spoil with the mighty.

    Apply God’s word with God’s word, such is how truth is established.  When God made all things by Himself He would be doing so BY REASON OF and FOR the very man who He said that He was going to give it to. That man would bring forth salvation and life, so without this man God would not have made the worlds.  

    Bearan this is a TRUTH I don’t see how anyone can possibly deny, even if it does not fit their current doctrine of beliefs.

    Our heavenly Father SPOKE IT in the beginning, He purposed it and said that He would do it.

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