John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,781 through 19,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #851012
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi said: Scripture directly tells us that Jesus IS the root and offspring of David.

    The root of a plant comes before the rest of the plant, the offspring of the plant comes after the plant exists and then reproduces.

    The Son of God is both before Jesse and David  (as the Word who all things were created through),  and after as the incarnated son who came through David’s lineage via Mary and Joseph since Joseph was his legal father.

    That little distinction helps clear up so much confusion. Jesse and David did not come from the flesh man Jesus, they came through the Son of God who is the Word that all things were created through.

    The confusion with the word “dia” often translated as the word “through” to try to prove that the Son did not exist during creation is completely ridiculous. If someone walked through Samaria, for instance, that would require Samaria to have existed. If God spoke through Moses, that proves that Moses existed, etc. To state that all things were made through the Son, that proves that the Son existed while all things were made through the Son. Not only did the Son exist while all things were made through Him, He had an active role…the Son is the LORD who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of HIS HANDS.

    Hebrews 1

    8But of the Son He says,
    “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
    AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
    THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
    WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

    10And,
    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
                AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

    11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

    12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

    I hope that helps. LU

    #851013
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Mike

    Colossians 2: 9

    In French  we have translated

    The word   DIVINITY( DIVINITE)

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.

    That’s a much better translation than “Godhead” – which is a man’s idea and is nowhere found in scripture.  I agree that God’s fullness dwells in His holy servant Jesus.  After all, Jesus is the only one to whom God has given His Spirit without measure.

    Berean:  EMMANUEL: GOD WITH US

    God IS with us.  As in, “if God is with us, who can stand against us?”  Emmanuel doesn’t in any sense of the word indicate that anyone bearing that title actually IS the Most High God of gods.

    Berean:  The birds are starting to sing here in France…

    Fantastic!  It is a new spring, and within the next few months people will start to realize that the world they thought they lived in doesn’t exist.

    #851014
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Heb.1…

    Who(Jesus Christ) being the brightness of his glory(of God the Father), and the express image of his person(of the Father)

    Heb 1:  God (one entity) spoke to us THROUGH mere mortal men in the past.

    God (one entity) spoke to us THROUGH his son and servant (Jesus) in these latter days.

    God (one entity) appointed this servant (Jesus) a lot of good things, and made him joint heirs with us of His “last will and testament”.

    God (one entity) made all things, and did that THROUGH his servant (Jesus), much as he created all of us THROUGH his servants (our parents).

    Jesus, as the most perfect servant of his and our God, Jehovah, reflects God’s brightness and the personality of his and our God better than anyone else in God’s (one entity) creation.

    #851015
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Hi Mike,

    I’m glad to see you’re back posting again!

    What ever happened to Pierre?

    Thanks, Ed.  Pierre was suffering with pancreatic cancer for years, and I think he finally succumbed to it.  He was on another discussion forum with me and Dig4Truth for a while, and then just “disappeared” a couple of years back.  I believe he has passed away.  Is Kerwin still around?

    #851016
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Edj

    Where you have seen one verse

    that say that it is By crucifixion THE LORD MADE THE WORLDS ?

    I AM WAITING 👤. ….

     

    Ed:  Hi Berean,

    “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8)

    “Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born,
    and for this cause came I into the world” (John 18:37)

    “Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour:
    but for this cause came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)

    “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)

    Ed, all of these scriptures were spoken AFTER the world already existed.  Kind of hard for God to create these things through crucifixion when they already existed before the crucifixion.  The KJV translation of Rev 13:8 is nonsensical, and is clearly a poor ordering of the Greek words.  Consider…

    Revelation 17:8 
    The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction. The inhabitants of the earth – all those whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world – will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.

    It is the names of the saved who have been written in the book of life since God created the earth.  The book of life BELONGS to the Lamb who was slain.  This is a much better word order of the same verse…

    Revelation 13:8

    and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

    #851017
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…. I think you and Jodi do agree I also agree with you both.

    We all agree that Jesus was a man who was foreordained by God.  Many different scriptures make it clear that Jesus existed prior to this though – and so you and I and Jodi agree on some things, but not on others.

    #851018
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup and All,

    YOU:Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

    Jesus is the Lord of lords here.

    ME: I hope people will read and pay close attention to what these scriptures directly teach you. 

    Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. 3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. 4 In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. 5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. 6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    Our Heavenly Father is a God of gods and a Lord of lords, and a great King above all gods.

    Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Now recall, Jesus speaks our Father’s word because our Father gave him of His Spirit not by measure.

    Jesus reveals not his words but our Heavenly Father’s words. Jesus calls our Father our Lord of heaven and earth. Through Jesus speaking our Father’s words, we hear our Father. 

    Here it is again by Luke,

    Luke 10: 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    Jesus tells us to pray to our Father, who is Lord of heaven and earth, saying Hallowed be his name.

    Luke 11: 2 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Jesus gives praise, he thanks our heavenly Father who has a Hallowed name. 

    Psalm 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. 6 He hath also established them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. 7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: 8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: 9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: 10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: 11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: 12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children: 13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. 14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

    Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Our heavenly Father, Lord of heaven and earth where Hallowed be his name Yehovah, who is a God of gods, and a Lord of lords, and a great King above all gods, MADE JESUS a lord and Christ unto us, where Yehovah places him on his father David’s throne to be a king higher than all kings. 

    Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

    that same Jesus” who God made lord and Christ, IS according to that same chapter in Acts,

    “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Read it again, 

    Luke 10: 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    God raised Jesus from the dead giving him LIFE and a portion with the great, appointing him to divide the portion, BECAUSE “he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors,” of which he did by being OBEDIENT to His God, and that obedience occurred through God directing all his ways. How does God cause a man to walk in His statues? “I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them”

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    People, the man ordained of God to judge the world is NOT possibly Jehovah, Jehovah is the name of our Father who alone created heaven and earth. The God who made the world and all things ordained a man to judge the world. God appointed a day, and that day was determined by God before the world even was. Our heavenly Father appointed a man to have dominion over that which our Father made, of which God had determined that appointing before the world was, thus our Father created all things by reason of and for him. 

    #851019
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene you say

    Jesus is before us in  all things,  in regards to the kingdom of God,   but he is always subject to God the Father, in authority.

    1 Cor 15:27….”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet, it is “manifest” that “he is excepted”, which put “all things” under him.”

    Berean are you able to actually understand that scripture?

    Gene,

    You’re answering me this way because someone once put it into your head

    that Jesus is not of divine nature.BUT The Bible doesn’t teach that. Jesus is the divine Son of God who was made flesh as the beloved John says.

    He was with God in the beginning, and all things were made by Him and all

    things remain in Him.

     

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…..John 1

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist….Colossians 1

    3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,…..Hebrews 1

     

    Amen Glory be to God for such a savior and Lord.

    #851020
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: Good words Berean!

    This passage is so wonderful:
    Philippians 2

    Be Like Christ

    did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

    You posted that, Kathi.  What do those last words mean to you?

     

    #851021
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Amen

    Words’ S song (Héritage singers)

    Because of love He left His throne
    And made this Earth His home
    He did it willingly
    For you and me
    With heaven left behind
    He came to save all mankind
    From sin and shame
    He could have walked away
    But instead He chose
    To stay upon that tree
    And take a crown of thrones for me
    Because of love
    Because of love He bore my pain (He bore my pain)
    Shouldering the blame
    Why did He chose to go (He didn’t have to go)
    How could He love me so
    Because of love He called to me (He called to me)
    He said “Child I will set you free (You’ll have)
    Life abundantly (Life abundantly)
    Because of love (Because of love)
    He gave unselfishly
    Caused my blinded to eyes to see
    It was you and me He had in mind
    On that road to Calvary
    I’ve never known such a perfect love
    I had fallen down but He…

    God bless

    What beautiful poetry, Berean.  I think we can all agree that we love Jesus and appreciate his sacrifice.  Those who believe he is God love him.  Those who believe he began his existence as a man love him.  And those of us who KNOW that the truth is somewhere in between those two understandings love him.  😉

    #851022
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    Two different persons.  The LORD of hosts has sent someone other than the LORD of hosts.

    #851023
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    referring to this:

    LU said:This passage is so wonderful:
    Philippians 2

    Be Like Christ

    …did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…

    Mike asked:You posted that, Kathi.  What do those last words mean to you?

    There is the begetter and the begotten, both identical in form and type, different in relationship. The begotten, although being in the form of the begetter, did not consider the authority of the begetter to be something to challenge, to seize for himself, and didn’t even insist that the privileges of his position as the ONLY begotten Son be held onto, demanded. In other words, it was the Son who willingly gave up the honor due Him as the ONLY begotten Son of God the Father in order to do what was necessary to redeem mankind. The begotten Son acted in the humblest manner and we are to be humble in our mindset also.

    I liken it to a wealthy and honorable prince, becoming a homeless person if it meant the redemption of the people he was to be king over someday.

    Now are you gonna admit that the cell theory portrays two identical cells, equal in age, distinct from each other and in relationship as parent and offspring?

     

    #851024
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: I propose that the original, in the case of an eternal source, is either the eternally existing father and son where the son is existing but not yet begotten…

    Why would you propose something like that?  Scriptural reason?  Or personal?  “Today I have begotten a son who already existed from eternity inside of me.”  Hmm…

     

    Lightenup: Since you are wrong immediately in your first sentence above in your post, you build the rest of your post on sand and the definition of “clone” washed it away.

    Please explain how I am wrong.  I said, “The closest example we have of a cloned person would be an identical twin.   Has there ever been a case where one identical twin is considered the father or son of the other one?”

    Do you have an example of a closer example than the one I listed?  What if we had an ACTUAL human clone to compare?  Would the cloned individual be the son of the original?  Was that clone already “existing but not yet begotten” inside the original?

     

    Lightenup:  Here is the definition:

    an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.

    That fits a father/son relationship.

    No, Kathi… it most definitely doesn’t.  And let’s not overlook the word PRODUCED in your definition.  As in, one entity PRODUCED another entity.

     

    Lightenup:  You show me scriptures that say Jesus is the first creation by God and I will accept that.

    Revelation 3:14 KJV

    And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

     

    Colossians 1:15 KJV

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

     

    Proverbs 8 NET

    22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    24 When there were no deep ocean I was born…

    25 before the mountains were set in place –before the hills – I was born…

     

    Micah 5:2 NET

     As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah… from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.

     

    Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?

     

     

    #851025
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Understand? Two wills united as one united will still realizes two distinct wills, but both are in agreement.

    Two wills necessitates two persons.  Two persons necessitates creators – not creator.  Now go re-read the prayer in Acts 4.  The apostles clearly prayed TO a single Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  Is that correct or not?

    The apostles later referred to Jesus as the “holy servant OF” this single Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  Is that correct or not?

    Please reconcile.

    #851026
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: We all agree that Jesus was a man who was foreordained by God.  Many different scriptures make it clear that Jesus existed prior to this though – and so you and I and Jodi agree on some things, but not on others.

    ME: I know I have given some long posts that you may not be taking the time to read, so I will sum up what Gene and I see as the error we believe people make in reading passages thinking that they are speaking of Jesus existing prior.

    I’d first like to say a correction is needed by what you said, “Jesus IS a man who was foreordained by God”, so maybe we don’t actually agree, if you do not believe that Jesus IS still a man?

    Gene and I believe that the words that the prophets, apostles, and Jesus all spoke, that were our Heavenly Father’s words and not their own, were all things that were with our Heavenly Father before the world was.

    In other words,

    Our heavenly Father declared all things that would be, all things that would occur. He did declare the End from the beginning and all that is in between before the beginning even began. 

    When the prophets, apostles, and Jesus spoke God’s words in their day, they spoke things that were, that are, and that which would be. All the things that they spoke revealed to them by God had been with God before the world began, destined by God to be fulfilled, nothing would be held back.

    Scripture tells me that a man was to come, a man did come, a man sits at God’s right hand, a man is returning to sit on an eternal throne. A man received eternal life and became our source for eternal life. God’s promise before the world began was eternal life. A man receives dominion and a man judges. A man justified us from all things. The very word that Jesus is firstborn of many brethren, were with God before the world was, and thus I believe it is he that God created all things by reason of and for him.

    I don’t change the image of him, I apply the very he that was of God’s word before the world began.

    Where people believe a passage is revealing to us Jesus existed prior, I believe the passage is expressing the same truth that God had given to Isaiah for us to believe, God’s purpose of salvation and eternal life would be executed by the calling of a man, and thus God would have created all things by reason of and for him, for without this man there would be no purpose, as the purpose is for the firstborn of many brethren to sit on an eternal throne.

    We are told specifically what the glory that Jesus has IS, and MOST certainly that glory was of God for a man to have before the world began. Jesus knew of that glory, it was written by the prophets, he spoke of it himself, and when he was preparing to go to the cross he declared his faith in God’s word unto God as he asked him to receive that glory.

     

    #851027
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  If God spoke through Moses, that proves that Moses existed, etc. To state that all things were made through the Son, that proves that the Son existed while all things were made through the Son.

    Excellent!

     

     

     

     

    #851028
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: Why would you propose something like that? 

    My answer: To provide a real life example of something that demonstrates how through the asexual reproduction  process of binary fission, the simplest parent/offspring relationship which, according to a first and only generation, demonstrates that the age of the substance in both is identical in age and type. No one can say that the son can not possibly be as old as his father with that example.

    The common argument that the son of God can’t be as old as his Father because a father is always older that his son, is null and void from that one real life example. You can’t say that the example doesn’t demonstrate a parent/offspring example. It isn’t a human example but God is not human so that doesn’t matter.

    #851029
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: …did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…

    Mike asked:You posted that, Kathi.  What do those last words mean to you?
    There is the begetter and the begotten, both identical in form and type, different in relationship.

    Identical?  Scripture please?

    Kathi:  Now are you gonna admit that the cell theory portrays two identical cells, equal in age, distinct from each other and in relationship as parent and offspring?

    Let’s see… first there was only ONE cell.  Then later there were two.  Yet both cells are “equal in age”?  And one is the father of the other – who is the son of the former?  Yeah, I won’t be “admitting” any of that.  😉

    #851030
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  I’d first like to say a correction is needed by what you said, “Jesus IS a man who was foreordained by God”, so maybe we don’t actually agree, if you do not believe that Jesus IS still a man?

    No, Jesus is no longer flesh and blood – for those things cannot enter nor inherit the Kingdom of God.

    And no, I don’t believe that words that Jehovah would eventually speak through prophets were what was “with Him” before the world was created.

    I do agree that Jesus was a man who was foretold by Jehovah.  So let’s go back to where we started.  You say the man Jesus couldn’t have been a spirit son of God who was later born of a woman on earth.  I explained that Jesus could have been a rock before God made him a son of David and Jesse.  I pointed out that, even in your understanding, Jesus wasn’t ever exactly like all other men – in that he had no earthly father.

    So is it possible that God could have raised up a son of Jesse by sending a spirit son to be born of a flesh woman?  It seems to me that you couldn’t possibly honestly say no – since who are we to say what’s possible or not when it comes to things of God, right?  So I’ll assume you agree that this is at least possible, though you don’t currently understand it this way.  So let’s now discuss just one single scripture…

    John 17:5

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    What does Jesus mean that he had glory in God’s presence before the world began?  (Please, let’s both keep it short and too the point from here on out.)

     

    #851031
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?

    Here is ONE scriptural reason:

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

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