John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,701 through 19,720 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #850875
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    I have wrestled with those passages as you have and I have an example in nature that helps me understand, I found an example in nature of how the Father and the Son can both be the same eternal age. Are you ready for that discussion?

    #850876
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Hi Jodi

    The subject is: WHO IS “THE WORD”?
    Yes  or  no  ?
    THE BIBLE SAYS THAT “THE WORD” IS CHRIST HIMSELF. (JOHN 1; REVELATION 19)

    That was a good post, B.  What say you, Jodi?  Does the Bible say equate “the Word” with “Jesus”?

     

    #850877
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  Together they created as one creator Jehovah God. They did not act separately, they acted interdependently, united in their Holy Spirit as one spirit.

    Can one creator have two different wills?

     

    #850878
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  Mike,

    I have wrestled with those passages as you have and I have an example in nature that helps me understand, I found an example in nature of how the Father and the Son can both be the same eternal age. Are you ready for that discussion?

    Probably not! 😁  Just kidding… lay it on me, sister.  Just know that I’ve been working a lot, so if you (or anyone else) doesn’t see a prompt answer, I will get to it by the weekend.

    #850879
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Haha, ok Mike. The example in nature is actually the simplest created organism with reproductive potential…a single cell, the first single cell of it’s kind at the time of creation. When that cell goes through the asexual reproductive process, it ends up with two identical cells with the same essence and the same aged essence in both. The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell. Thus there is a father and son, identical in age and essence but distinct in relationship.

    Simple as that.

    #850884
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup

     

    You

    “The example in nature is actually the simplest created organism with reproductive potential…a single cell, the first single cell of it’s kind at the time of creation. When that cell goes through the asexual reproductive process, it ends up with two identical cells with the same essence and the same aged essence in both. The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell. Thus there is a father and son, identical in age and essence but distinct in relationship.

    Simple as that.”

     

    This is the Holy Spirit !!!!

     

    I also thought that thing
    concerning the Father and the begotten Son.
    The Son is truly of the same glorious and eternal substance as the Father.
    They are, however, two distinct persons with their own personalities: One in Spirit, one in heart, one in purpose.

     

    God bless

    #850890
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Berean: In the meantime, you hide the fact that Christ is the creative agent of the Father and that through Him all things were created.

    I guess “creative agent” works for me, although none of us actually know for sure what it means that God created all things through Jesus. But we do indeed know that God created all things through Jesus, right? Jodi? Ed? Gene? We do know that, right?

    Quit trying to change what Scripture says to fit your beliefs!

    Only by his crucifixion Mike. You want to change Rev. 13:8
    and discount Isaiah 44:24. This approach is inadvisable Mike.

    “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    If any man have an ear, let him hear.” (Rev 13:8-9)

    Jesus did not create nor help create in any way ..

    24 “I the LORD that maketh all things;
    that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
    that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars” (Isaiah 44:24-25)

    #850892
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj…..no we don’t believe that Go created all things “through” Jesus,  because for one Jesus did not exist till he was born on this earth. We have already produced scriptures that say the “God and alone and by himself ” created everything that exists.  Isa 44:24

    The problem is in the word “through” in the Greek that word can be use in many different way.  The overall meaning of the word “dia”  in Greek denotes a “causal” channel of an act; has a very wide applications like,  “because of” like for the reason of, for sake of,  but never seems to imply it was done by the “casual”  person himself. 

    Edj…..and all, you need to really understand the actual meaning of  the word “dia” in the Greek language.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #850893
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    you asked:

    Can one creator have two different wills?

    Yes when the two are perfectly united.

    #850894
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,
    you said:

    I also thought that thing
    concerning the Father and the begotten Son.
    The Son is truly of the same glorious and eternal substance as the Father.
    They are, however, two distinct persons with their own personalities: One in Spirit, one in heart, one in purpose.

    Amen! So refreshing when people get this!!

    Blessings, LU

    #850895
    Lightenup
    Participant

    To all,
    When you get stuck with the fact that the Bible said all things were made by God alone and also it says that God made all things through the Son, it really is as simple as recognizing that Jehovah God is both the God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son) two persons. God in the fullest sense is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Two persons united in one Spirit.

    Therefore,
    God alone made all things, true
    Jehovah God who is God of gods and Lord of lords made all things, true
    The Father and the Son and Spirit, alone made all things. true

    All of the above are true, just said differently.
    As simple as that!

    Blessings, LU

    #850896
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    you:

    Berean: JESUS IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD (FATHER)

    BUT HE HAS THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS
    FATHER…

    THE WORD: “god” is also applied for thé “angels”

    Psalms 8:5
    For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels(elohiym), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
    You and I are not too far off.  Most erroneously claim that the Hebrew culture and the Bible are “strictly monotheistic”.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The entire Bible is chock full of all kinds of different gods…  Molech, Yahweh, Dagon, Michael, Ashteroth, Gabriel, Baal, Satan… and many more.  After all, Yahweh couldn’t be the MOST HIGH God if there weren’t less high gods.  He couldn’t be the God OF gods if there weren’t other gods that he was the God OF.

    So since you agree that Jesus isn’t the Almighty God… is it possible that Jesus is also one of those less high gods that the Father is the God OF?

    (I have no argument for Jesus having divine nature, since I agree with that.)

     

    is it possible that Jesus is also one of those less high gods that the Father is the God OF?

    (I have no argument for Jesus having divine nature, since I agree with that.)

     

    Arguments from the Bible FOR Jesus having divine nature

    Hebrews 1

    [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,by whom also he made the worlds;[3] Who being the brightness of his glory(of God), and the express image of his person(of God), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 2

    [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    [9] For in him*JESUS CHRIST* dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily.

    PAUL SAY THAT CHRIST IS BEFORE ALL THINGS/AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST

    COL.1[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    CONSIST:

    4921
    sunistaw
    sunistao
    soon-is-tah’-o,
    sunistano soon-is-tan’-o, or sunistemi soon-is’-tay-mee from sun – sun 4862 and isthmi – histemi 2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, i.e. (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively, to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute:–approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).

     

    JESUS BEING BEFORE ALL THINGS

    HE CAN’T HAVE ORIGINALLY BEEN A CREATURE OF GOD.
    AT THE TIME GOD FORMED HIM A BODY IN THE BOSOM OF MARIE.

     

    THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD  AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    GOD BLESS

     

     

     

     

    #850897
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Passages that Gene and I speak of are passed over time and time again and are NOT APPLIED, they are disregarded. You are far from the truth when you refuse to apply scripture with scripture.

    The first chapter in John can be fully understood CORRECTLY through applying an abundance of other passages with it. 

    I am going to start with the END of the chapter,

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    JESUS IS the Son of Jehovah as the fulfillment of JEHOVAH’S WORD spoken to the prophet Nathan. Jehovah BECOMES a Father to David’s son and promises to give him an eternal throne, making him a king over Israel. Jehovah promised that He would not take His mercy (goodness) away from the son of David, a Son of Man who has Jehovah’s angels ascending and descending upon him, a son of David who would be settled in Jehovah’s house forever.

    #850898
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This should help you understand what is said in 1 Chronicles:

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/2_samuel/7.htm

    #850899
    Jodi
    Participant

    Continued,

    Understanding John chapter 1 in truth,

    One must apply these passages, 

    Isaiah 44: 23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his SERVANT, and performeth the counsel of his MESSENGERS; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Isaiah 45: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    What the LORD spoke from the beginning was of a MAN who would execute Jehovah’s purpose which He also DECLARED from the beginning, SALVATION. Eternal life was even of the LORD’S pleasure before the world began. (Titus 1:2)

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    WHO IS God’s servant, his messenger, his ELECT? Where is he elected out from?

    Deut 18: 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Luke 22:19 And he said unto them,What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Isaiah 61: 1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    Acts 13: 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

    Continuing Isaiah 42,

    2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    READ AGAIN,

    Isaiah 45: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    AND DON’T FORGET,

    Isaiah 44: 23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    In the beginning was the LORD’s WORD OF a MAN who would execute that which the LORD declared from the beginning, that which was His determined purpose for making the world in the first place, which was salvation, bringing forth eternal life.

    The LORD’s WORD declared from the beginning was of a MAN to come who would be for a LIGHT bringing forth righteousness and life. Out of Jesse and David would rise up a savior who would fulfill all things of the LORD’S WORD that He had declared from the beginning. From among brethren a prophet rose up to declaring the LORD’S WORD and fulfill the LORD’S WORD and be given dominion over the WORD that is fulfilled.  

    When the LORD by himself, all alone, stretched forth the heavens and spreadeth abroad the earth He created it by reason of and for him who would fulfill all those things that the LORD had declared before the world was.

    Jesus was elected from among his brethren, where the Spirit descended upon him and he was SENT to fulfill all things that the LORD had declared, purposed, were of His pleasures, before the world was. All things consist in this man BECAUSE the LORD elected him to fulfill the END, to fulfill the LORD’S promises, to fulfill eternal life that the LORD had declared before the world was.

     

    #850901
    Berean
    Participant

    John.1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    THIS 3 verses are in the COLNTEXT of THE BIGINNING, OUR BIGINNING , THE BIGINNING OF OUR EARTH

    WE ARE BEFORE THE TIME WERE JESUS BIGINS HIS MINISTER IN THE FLESH

    GOD BLESS

     

     

     

    #850902
    Berean
    Participant

    JODI

    STOP TWISTING GOD’S WORD TO TRY TO PROVE THAT JESUS ISN’T
    GOD.

    #850905
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU: They are, however, two distinct persons with their own personalities: One in Spirit, one in heart, one in purpose.

    ME: The Father and the Son though they are distinct, they are

    INSEPARABLE.

    The Son is eternally in the Father and the Father eternally in the Son. Also as much as within the Father there is the Holy Ghost, equivalently within the Son, there is also the Holy Ghost, since the Father and the Son are equal in every sense. This is depicted in

    John2o:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them:

    Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 

    Now despite they received the Holy Ghost glorified one substance with “THE WORD” the Son of Man, in

    A UNIQUE SPIRITUAL/FLESH BODY in JESUS CHRIST,

    GODMAN ON EARTH, They still had to wait till they receive the Holy Spirit from the Father.

    GLORIFIED and EMPOWERED IN JESUS’ UNIQUE POWER.

    In order for the Father to SAVE ALL by the Holy Spirit in/with JESUS’ POWER through THE WOMAN Mary, as much as Satan condemned all through the woman Eve.

    Well mentioned by Jesus in

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin and of justice and of judgment.

    12 I have yet many things to say to you: but

    YOU CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,

    HE WILL TEACH YOU THE TRUTH.

    For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

    14 HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: because ( HE SIMPLY PERFORM ALL ONLY IN THE NAME OF JESUS)

    HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE and shall shew it to you. ( POWER, WISDOM, and REVELATION)

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath (REGARDING JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE) are mine. Therefore I said that

    HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE and shall shew it to you.

     

    For the sake of creation it was the task of the Son to empty Himself from His divine spirit, and became slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world.Rev.13:8. HE OFFERED HIMSELF FOR THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE HUMAN RACE. By which spirit he enriched the entire human race.

    HE BECAME POOR SO WE BECOME RICH.

    I WONDER IF JODI EVER PRODUCED THIS SCRIPTURE  HEREUNDER:

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    that being rich ( IN HIS DIVINITY)

    he became poor (IN HIS HUMANITY) for your sakes:

    that through his poverty you might be rich. ( BECOME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH HIM IN HIS DIVINITY on his resurrection) Mentioned by 

    1Peter1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: 4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time. 

    as HE IS IN FULL GLORY ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.

    1John 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall

    be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

    John 17:20

    And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me.

     21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; (inseparable)

    that they also may be one in us:

    that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: (from the very beginning PRE-EXISTED, when he poured His spirit SLAIN LIKE A LAMB……and became POOR, in the process of the world.)

    that, they may be one, as we also are one.

    23I in them,( AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT IN EVERY CREATURES’ HEART) and thou in me: ( IN MY HEART) that they may be made

    perfect in one:

    and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

    24Father, I will that where I am,(inseparable with the Father) they also whom thou hast given me may be with me:

    (THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE one substance in Jesus as THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD on the last day of the Lord )

    that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, (BEFORE CREATION)

    because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.( PRE-EXISTED)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #850906
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Good words. I believe that you quoted Berean, not me there.

    This is what I told Gene one page back:

    Jehovah is both the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son). Jehovah is not God of gods apart from His Son who is the Lord of lords. Together they created as one creator Jehovah God. They did not act separately, they acted interdependently, united in their Holy Spirit as one spirit.

    Blessings, LU

     

    #850908
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    The child’s father is David, and this child SHALL BE great and he SHALL BE called the Son of the Highest. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased….28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased…Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,.. 14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

    Jesus wasn’t GREAT until he was begotten by God of God’s Spirit where at that moment God declared that THIS man, Jesus of Nazareth the son of David, was His Son. This Jesus, the only begotten mortal man to receive of God’s Spirit in full measure, was then SENT out into the world beginning in Galilee where his fame spread because of all his words and deeds he did through God by God’s Spirit upon him.

    Jesus tells you himself when he was anointed and sent in Luke 4, and his anointing is him having God’s Spirit abode upon him without measure. No other mortal man received of God’s Spirit without measure.

    God sent JESUS, the Son of Man to save that which was lost AFTER God placed His Spirit upon him in fullness.

    Luke 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty (forgiveness/pardon) them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,..28 Even as the Son of man CAME not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    This isn’t just any Son of Man, this is the son of David of prophecy who God promised He would be a Father to. This isn’t just any Son of Man, this is the son of Jesse who would receive of God’s Spirit in fullness, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD for the purpose TO BE SENT out TO bring forth liberty- pay the penalty for the world’s sins. 

    Lightenup, hear the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus, the son of David promised to be made into God’s Son, Jesus had God’s Spirit upon him so that he would be SENT TO pay the penalty for the world’s sins. JESUS was God’s only Son who received of God’s Spirit not by measure for the purpose of being SENT to pay the penalty for the world’s sins. 

    Jesus WAS the only mortal man begotten of God to fulfill all of God’s will, being of the seed of David and according to a promise God raised him up to be a savior. NOW Jesus IS the first begotten of the dead, where upon rising from the dead he was begotten of God as a firstborn of many brethren, and is a Son of God according to the Spirit of which he received according to a promise when he rose from the dead. 

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

    Jesus is a Son of God ACCORDING to a promise which was spoken by the prophets, he is not a Son according to pre-existing as a son. The Son of Man exalted, sitting at God’s right hand in heaven right now, was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, where on that day of his resurrection he was begotten of God becoming God’s eternal Son. 

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 

     

     

     

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