John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,721 through 19,740 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #850910
    Berean
    Participant

    John.1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    BY HIM

    HIM  SIGNIFIES A PERSON

    BY

     

    1223
    dia
    dia
    dee-ah’
    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):–after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

    note: strong places first:” a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional”

    EXAMPLES

    1:17 For the law was given by(dia) Moses, [but] grace and truth came by(dia) Jesus Christ.

    others means but not “dia”

    John.6
    [18] And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

    18
    h te qalassa anemou megalou pneontoV dihgeireto
    6:18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

    dihgeireto:

    1326
    diegeirw
    diegeiro
    dee-eg-i’-ro
    from dia – dia 1223 and egeirw – egeiro 1453; to wake fully; i.e. arouse (literally or figuratively):–arise, awake, raise, stir up.

    here  “dia”
    John.12

    11
    oti polloi di auton uphgon twn ioudaiwn kai episteuon eiV ton ihsoun
    12:11 Because that by reason(dia) of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

     

    10
    kai gar oude dedoxastai to dedoxasmenon en toutw tw merei eneken thV uperballoushV doxhV
    3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

    Note/here this not the word “dia” but ” eneken”

     

    1752
    eneka
    heneka

    or heneken hen’-ek-en or heineken hi’-nek-en of uncertain affinity; on account of:–because, for (cause, sake), (where-)fore, by reason of, that.

     

    one last

    same grec word:” eneken”

    10
    makarioi oi dediwgmenoi eneken dikaiosunhV oti autwn estin h basileia twn ouranwn
    5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

     

    to follow

    God bless

     

    #850911
    Berean
    Participant

    [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    EPHESIANS 3

     

    #850913
    Berean
    Participant

    [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    EPHESIANS 3

    WHY THE BEST TRADUCTION OF THE BIBLE TRANSLATE ” BY JESUS CHRIST” AND not “FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS CHRIST” ????????

    #850915
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi, regarding what the Jews thought about the Word in John 1:1…they likely connected that to the Memra of the OT Targums. Google Memra and John 1:1. For some reason when I post the link, my post doesn’t go through.

     

    #850916
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi, regarding the Psalm 2:7 passage about “today I have begotten you,” I believe that refers to the begetting from the grave. He is the firstBORN from the dead.

    #850918
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell.

    The original cell was alive before the other one ever existed, and we could consider that situation as the latter cell being created/begotten/brought forth by the former.  So the Jesus cell would still owe his very existence to the Father cell that gave him that existence.  Also, the Father has a mind and a will, unlike the cell.  He didn’t just undergo an uncontrollable cloning event, and out popped Jesus.  He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.  Plus, the latter cell would “know” EVERYTHING the former cell knows.  That is not the case with Jesus and his and our God, Yahweh.

    Kathi, on a side note, are you aware that contagious viruses don’t even exist – and never have?

    #850920
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Quit trying to change what Scripture says to fit your beliefs!  …Jesus did not create nor help create in any way.

    I haven’t changed a single scripture of which I’m aware.  There is one God who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. (Acts 4)  He did that THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.  I don’t know what “through” means though.  God created you through your parents.  You parents had no power of their own to create you, so we could honestly say that God, by Himself, created you.  But He chose to do that THROUGH your parents, and in the case of Jesus’ flesh existence, through only one parent.  So did Mary have any “hands on” involvement in the creation of Jesus as a man?  Did your parents exercise any will or have direct involvement in the creation of Ed J?  In the latter case, of course they did.  But Yahweh still – alone and by Himself – created Ed J.  He did it through your parents, but could have just as easily raised you up from rocks, right?

    So I don’t know the answer, man.  All I know is that Jehovah ALONE is the creative force behind the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and that those things were created through His only begotten Son.  I assume there was some “hands on” or at least some creative input from Jesus and God’s other spirit sons (Let US make man in OUR image), but the Bible doesn’t tell us exactly how it went down.

    #850921
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: Mike, you asked:

    Can one creator have two different wills?

    Yes when the two are perfectly united.

    That seems counterintuitive to me.  How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will?  Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will.  But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?

    #850922
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  When you get stuck with the fact that the Bible said all things were made by God alone and also it says that God made all things through the Son, it really is as simple as recognizing that Jehovah God is both the God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son) two persons.

    So then…

    1 Cor 8:6

    for us there is but one God, Jehovah, from whom all things came, and there is but one Lord, Jehovah, through whom all things came ?

    How come Jehovah God tells us that Jehovah God is his and our God?

    #850923
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  HE CAN’T HAVE ORIGINALLY BEEN A CREATURE OF GOD.

    But at least 4 different scriptures say he is.  And “before all things” doesn’t change that.  Your “fullness of the Godhead” scripture is a bad translation. So is “and the Word was God”.

    I thought we agreed that the Father was the only Almighty God, and that He created all things.  Maybe I was misunderstanding you.  Anyway, I’m glad you realize that the Bible is chock full of dozens of different gods.  That one stumbles the majority of people due to the “monotheistic” tradition taught by men but nowhere in the Bible.

    #850924
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Hi All,

    Passages that Gene and I speak of are passed over time and time again and are NOT APPLIED, they are disregarded. You are far from the truth when you refuse to apply scripture with scripture.

    In all fairness, you include a LOT of scriptures in virtually every post, Jodi.  😉  That’s perfectly fine, but I personally only have a limited amount of time.  I can’t make a post that addresses all that stuff at once.  The scriptures you posted this time teach that Jesus is the Messiah that Jehovah foretold He’d raise up for Israel.  I agree with that.  But none of them indicate, even slightly, that Jesus didn’t preexist his flesh.  On the other hand, there are dozens that clearly state he did.

    Just for starters, how do you explain/deny that God created all things through Jesus?

    #850926
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    I said: The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell.

    You said:
    The original cell was alive before the other one ever existed, and we could consider that situation as the latter cell being created/begotten/brought forth by the former.  So the Jesus cell would still owe his very existence to the Father cell that gave him that existence.  Also, the Father has a mind and a will, unlike the cell.  He didn’t just undergo an uncontrollable cloning event, and out popped Jesus.  He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.  Plus, the latter cell would “know” EVERYTHING the former cell knows.  That is not the case with Jesus and his and our God, Yahweh.

    The original cell’s living substance became the living substance of both resulting cells. New substance was added equally to both to complete the unzipped original DNA strands. Both resulting cells have within them the living substance that existed within the original cell. The Nucleus of the original cell, divides and half stays in one cell and half goes to the other. No new nucleus is created, it is simply divided.

    You said: He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.

    Where do you get that in the Bible? He may have chosen to have a Son but this binary fission shows us that it is not a creative process but a reproductive process. Like the binary fission process, the living substance in both the Father and the Son would be as equal in age as the living substance in the original condition since it is the same living substance portioned out equally to each cell. Also, how did you know that He didn’t clone Himself?  As far as the latter cell knowing everything the former cell knows, well each cell has the same makeup to be perfect and divine and all that entails but each cell experiences a different position and relationship…one is on the right, one is on the left for instance, one is the begetter, one is the begotten. The begetter does not experience how it is to be the begotten and visa versa.

     

    Here are a couple videos on the process:

    DNA Replication   https://youtu.be/TNKWgcFPHqw

    Binary Fission   https://youtu.be/OAcz-tFGY0Y

    #850927
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike

    Mike, you asked: Can one creator have two different wills?

    LU: Yes when the two are perfectly united.

    Mike: That seems counterintuitive to me.  How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will?  Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will.  But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?

    I didn’t say that the two wills were perfectly united as one single will. The two wills are perfectly united to do the will of the Father acknowledging the Father as the authority. This doesn’t make the Son’s will less wise or less in anyway but demonstrates the perfect wisdom and love of the Son.

    For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.

    #850928
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    LU: When you get stuck with the fact that the Bible said all things were made by God alone and also it says that God made all things through the Son, it really is as simple as recognizing that Jehovah God is both the God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son) two persons.

    Mike: So then…1 Cor 8:6 for us there is but one God, Jehovah, from whom all things came, and there is but one Lord, Jehovah, through whom all things came ? How come Jehovah God tells us that Jehovah God is his and our God?

    My response:

    The Father is the head (the God) of Christ and Christ is the head (the God) of the church, therefore the Father is God to both the Son and the church albeit indirectly to the church since He has placed Christ in the direct position to the church after the resurrection.

    If you are referring to this: John 20:7

    Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”

    I believe that Jesus and Mary both recognized Jehovah as God before the resurrection but the role of  “father” was new to Mary as the resurrection now made her a child of God too. That is how I understand this anyway.

    These have all been good questions, Mike. I am avoiding the virus topic since I came back here to post partly to get away from the virus. Maybe you can enlighten us in the virus thread that has begun elsewhere in the forum.

    Btw, don’t work so hard.

    Blessings, LU

    #850930
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    I hope you have more to say concerning my post that begins with applying Luke 1 to Chronicles 17. 

    The child to be born IS David’s son and that child will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest. First you have David’s son THEN you have God saying that He will be a Father unto this son of David.

    YOU: Jodi, regarding the Psalm 2:7 passage about “today I have begotten you,” I believe that refers to the begetting from the grave. He is the firstBORN from the dead.

    ME: And who is “he”, he is the son of David who is promised to sit on his father David’s throne forever according to the flesh, and is God’s Son ACCORDING to the Spirit, where we read that when he was raised from the dead he received the promised Holy Spirit and the mercies of David.

    Jesus receives promises of the LORD as he himself from the beginning was a promise from the LORD in God’s WORD, where a man would execute the LORD’S purpose, which was eternal life for humans, of which is what you are told Jesus is himself, a human. 

    All things created through and for- through (by reason of) Jesus we have eternal life from the LORD as Jesus received the fullness of God’s Spirit at the river Jordan and was SENT into the world to pay the penalty for our sins, and for Jesus, as he is given eternal life himself from the LORD first, becoming a firstborn of many brethren. He then as a firstborn of many receives the inheritance of a firstborn Son, being given dominion over all the works of the LORD, where he is the man ordained of God to judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17).

     

    #850932
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You seem to only accept Jehovah as the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. That may be what keeps you from understanding the Son as both God and man. You spend many words trying to convince us that Jesus is a man. Who is debating that here? Many of us believe that Jesus existed in another manner before he was brought forth into Mary’s womb to become that man though.

    Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

    Jesus is the Lord of lords here.

    #850933
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    1 Chronicles 17 is about Solomon as the son of David that builds God’s house. No doubt that the passage has implications to Christ since Christ ultimately ends up on David’s throne eternally but the passage is more directly about Solomon.

    #850934
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for replying!

    YOU: Just for starters, how do you explain/deny that God created all things through Jesus?

    ME: I will make this as short as I can 😉

    Well for starters on my end, I do not at all deny that God created all things through Jesus. I declare it and find it to be a most profound truth, as I know that God declared the End from the beginning, where God’s purpose for His creation would be executed through a man whom God calls (Isaiah 46), and it is Jesus who IS that man.

    God says that He stretched forth the heavens alone and spreadeth abroad the earth by Himself, and as I just said, from the beginning God declared that a man would execute the purpose that God had declared for the creation that He Himself made. Hang on that for a bit. 

    The PURPOSE: God tells us in Isaiah 45 that He made earth not in vain, that He made it to be inhabited, and as we are told by Titus, God promised to us, before the world, was eternal life. 

    Eternal life comes to us through a man who shed his blood. Jesus is that man and he thus executed God’s purpose that God had declared from the beginning.

    Eternal life does not come to us because God sent a spirit son down to earth. Eternal life comes to us because Jesus as the promised son of Jesse, had God’s Spirit descend upon him in full measure, an anointing, where he was SENT out to pay the penalty for our sins (Luke 4, which is God’s word of Isaiah 61 fulfilled in the flesh of the man Jesus).

    The word through is popularly used to mean “by reason of”/”because of

    God created all things thus by reason of and for the man JESUS who would execute God’s purpose that God declared from the beginning.

    JESUS is the NAME given to a human child who is said would receive the throne of his father David, and who would be great and would be called the Son of the Highest.

    Look at the gospels, Jesus isn’t SENT, nor is he a witness to the people of his greatness, nor is he called the Son of God, until after the Spirit comes to rest upon him in full measure. In all the Gospels God declares Jesus who is the son of David to be His Son upon him receiving the Spirit not by measure, and THEN THIS Son we read is SENT where his fame begins to spread in Galilee as Jesus executes God’s will and purpose for His creation that He alone by Himself created.

     

    #850938
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The original cell’s living substance became the living substance of both resulting cells. New substance was added equally to both to complete the unzipped original DNA strands. Both resulting cells have within them the living substance that existed within the original cell. The Nucleus of the original cell, divides and half stays in one cell and half goes to the other. No new nucleus is created, it is simply divided.

    While we can make analogies like this about the Father and Son, we already know from scripture that the Father is above even the Son and much greater.

    “I am the vine; you are the branches.

    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.  He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes.

    My point: The son is not cloned vine if you know what I mean.

    #850939
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

     

    Colossians 2: 9

    In French  we have translated

    The word   DIVINITY( DIVINITE)

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.

    DIVINITY/HUMANITY  MIXED

    OR GOD VESTED BY OUR HUMANITY

     

    EMMANUEL: GOD WITH US

     

    The birds are starting to sing here in France…

     

    Good night

    God bless

     

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