John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,921 through 21,940 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869628
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike, I would also like to give you some advice about your first video and your second which I haven’t seen yet.

    Put them in a different channel or delete you flat earth videos. Why?

    A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough.

    #869629
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Imagine this as a picture of the eternal essence going from one, into two, resulting in a Father and a son, both from eternal essence and both identical to each other.

    Blessings, LU

    We don’t read this anywhere in scripture. Instead we read that the source of all, even the son, is the Father. It says that he is the Father of all spirits. Simple stuff.

    We don’t read that the Father was sourced from an earlier being or entity that spawned two beings.  That would make the Father a son of some kind.

    The Father has no father. He is the first because he is eternal. He has always been.

    #869630
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU: We read that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
    This proves that Christ existed at that time, prior to His human existence.

    ME:

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    I would whole heartedly disagree with you, no proof at all. Not only that but such an interpretation to that passage just makes other passages into lies.

    The Father calls me by His Spirit to understand His word, I read of the anointed Jesus of Nazareth and his spirit enters into my heart and mind.  Now imagine you’re a prophet, the very one receiving the word of YHVH with visions of the future anointed Jesus. Image you are David and it is your own son that YHVH is saying that He IS GOING TO BE a Father unto your son and WILL settle him into YHVH’s house, where you know by your own seed there is to be a resurrection of life. Imagine you are the prophet Isaiah, you see the anointing and the great works done in YHVH’s name by Jesus of Nazareth. You see his unrelenting faith as you watch him be tortured and hung on the cross. You see his resurrection and him sitting at YHVH’s right hand, and finally you see the dead rise at his return where he destroys the wicked bringing forth justice. You then see him set up the glorious kingdom of God where he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh and is a firstborn Son of many brethren unto our Father YHVH. Of course David and Isaiah and the prophets had the spirit of the anointed son of Jesse within their heart and mind, how in the world could they not? 

    If I believe that a person who has ceased all together to exist but their spirit can still live on within you, I am going to have no problem believing that a prophet can have the spirit of someone not even existing yet, living within them too. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I WILL raise up thy seed after thee, which SHALL BE of thy sons; and I WILL establish his kingdom. 12 He SHALL build me an house, and I WILL stablish his throne for ever. 13 I WILL BE his father, and he SHALL BE my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I WILL settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne SHALL BE established for evermore. 

    There was no Son yet, there was no Son settled in YHVH’s house yet, and not until the son of Jesse was anointed with YHVH’s Spirit at the river Jordan there was no Christ our savior yet either.

     

    #869631
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    I want to clarify something.

    Jesus is human, he has a human spirit and upon his anointing he had the Spirit of YHVH dwelling upon him. He was the only mortal man to have been anointed OF the Spirit without measure. 

    The words Christ and Messiah represent “the anointed”, the anointed of the Spirit. Jesus is not the only Messiah in scripture. David we are directly told not only received YHVH’s Spirit at a measure of course, but he is called a Messiah as well. All the prophets were anointed with the Spirit (mashiach/christos) having the Spirit within them.

    The Spirit of the anointed (mashiach/christos) is YHVH’s Spirit living in a human spirit.

    Jesus Christ represents of course the anointed Jesus where he is likewise just referred to as Christ. He is specifically a Messiah/Christ that YHVH chose to be the savior of the world.

    The prophets had the christos – anointing of the Spirit within them and they likewise had Jesus’s spirit within them too, this is true for the prophets and apostles of the New Testament as well. 

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    Taking a closer look at the above text, The Spirit that was of Jesus Christ dwelling in him was YHVH’s Spirit upon his spirit, therefore in the passage the “Spirit of Christ” represent YHVH’s Spirit that was also within the prophets, to which that Spirit testified to them beforehand the suffering of Jesus Christ.

    The prophets were anointed with the Spirit of YHVH. 

    It was indeed the Spirit of YHVH which is the Spirit within anyone anointed, thus is the Spirit of messiach/christos (the Spirit of Christ) that testified to the prophets the truth of their future Messiah, concerning his suffering and the glory that would come afterward. 

     

    #869632
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..The word Christ, simply means the anointing of anyone who has the Spirit of God on them,  that includes all the true prophets, of God , including Jesus.  Has nothing to do with any person’s “preexistence” at all.  Jesus is not the anointing Spirit he has or had on him , not now nor in the future either, He is a human being anointed with it (and it is the Spirit of God) which is not exclusive to just him, many had God the Fathers anointing Spirit on them , before Jesus ever existed,  and that is how God spoke through them , it was by his Spirit, the same thing as he does through Jesus and even the Apostles who received it.  In fact if we have not the anointing Spirit of God  (Christos) in us, we are simply non of his.
    Using the word Christos, to just apply to Jesus is just another false teaching. While Jesus is an “anointed” one,  he is by no means the “only” anointed one.  All the Sons of God are anointed one’s,  That’s what it means by “his seed” abides in them”,  that ‘seed mentioned there is the Spirit of God in them, we received when we we anointed with it from God the Father.
    “YOU MUST BE “BORN” AGAIN”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #869633
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All…….From days of old simply means that Jesus was in the “plan” of God,  even before he created humanity on this earth.  Jesus was ,  “prophesied” to come into “existence” from the foundations of the earth and even his sacrifice was to.    Not that he actually existed then.  God the father  plans something and then causes it to happen, that includes us and Jesus also. We were from the beginning just as The “man” Jesus ,  in the “PLAN” AND WILL,  OF GOD. Just that Simple.  God thinks things out “before”  he creates it, much  like we do.  This whole creation is a result of  a planning of God, before it ever happened, we were all foreknown, from  start to finish .  

    That is all that verse is saying , to read something else into is if simply not true.

     

    #869634
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Gene is right!

    Consider,

    Mashach – to anoint

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed (mashach) me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    Mashiyach – anointed one, translated Messiah (word origin Mashach) 

    The promise of YHVH was TO ANOINT (MASHACH) the son of Jesse with His Spirit making him an ANOINTED ONE (Mashiyach/Messiah) in order for him to be sent out into the world to fulfill YHVH’s will becoming our savior.

    Chrio -to anoint

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted*, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 

    Christos – anointed one, translated Christ (word origin Chrio)

    The promise of YHVH was fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Jesse. YHVH was TO ANOINT (Chrio) with His Spirit Jesus, making him an ANOINTED ONE (Christos/Christ) for to send him out into the world as our Christ appointed to save the world. 

    This anointing was Jesus becoming the only mortal man to be begotten of the Spirit without measure, the direct meaning as to why Jesus is called God’s only begotten Son. 

    After he was raised from the dead becoming a man with eternal life and receiving the Holy Spirit according to a promise, he began to be called the first begotten of the dead, the firstborn of many brethren.

    Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 

    Just as Jesus had been begotten of the Spirit at the river Jordan he was raised from the dead being begotten of the Spirit, no longer ever to depart but dwelling within him for all eternity at a measure that brings forth righteousness causing one to walk in all of YHVH’s ways. The promise that he received is our same promise, which is why for those who saw and handled the resurrected man Jesus, it caused them to have faith in their own resurrection and receiving of the promised Holy Spirit.

    #869635
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Jodi, there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.
    The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
    So again it is very clear that there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869636
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: Please speak to how Isaiah’s passages below fit into your doctrine. I have said that the below passages CONTRADICT your doctrine and you don’t seem to have an answer.

    YOU: My ANSWER

    ISAIAH 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Genesis 1:26
    [26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    LET US MAKE MAN…

    GOD SPOKE TO WHOM ???????

    ME: 

    Berean, you are not speaking to the passages that I gave that I asked you to directly apply to your own doctrine and explain how they fit in . If you want to introduce other passages that’s fine, but they need to be included with the specific ones I asked you to address, otherwise you aren’t actually  answering my question at all. 

    You have ignored those passages that directly contradict your doctrine and instead you have just introduced other passages that you interpret in a manner that just brings forth more contradiction. 

    Isaiah 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. 

    That glorious throne that Jesus sits on was his father David’s throne, and he not only sits on it according to the flesh but this throne is an eternal throne, which makes him an everlasting father. 

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (el), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    el

    god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
    angels
    god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
    God, the one true God, Jehovah
    mighty things in nature
    strength, power

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins….

    …10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 

    Isaiah 9:6 has EVERYTHING to do with Isaiah 11 and 22 concerning the son of Jesse and who YHVH makes this son of man to be. NOTHING to do with Jesus pre-existing. 

    Genesis 1:26-27 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Berean, YHVH created heaven and earth ALONE all by Himself and He did so WITH HIS POWERS. He and His POWERS altogether created heaven and earth.  By the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of Understanding, the Spirit of Council and Might and the Spirit of Knowledge were heaven and earth created. 

    Which is why we read Genesis 1:21-22 and 2:7 like we do.

    Elohiym (powers of YHVH, his special possessions that make Him alone our only true God) where He not only uses those powers to make man in His own image but He can also grant those powers unto others, as He did with Jesus as well as many others. 

    26 And Elohiym (the powers of YHVH) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

    27 So Elohiym created man in his own image, in the image of Elohiym created he him; male and female created he them.

    2:7 And YHVH Elohiym formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The Mechanical Translation of Genesis by Jeff A.Benner

    Genesis 1:26  and “Elohiym (Powers)” said, we will make a human in our image like our likeness..

    1:27 and “Elohiym (Powers)” fattened the human in his image, in the image of “Elohiym (Powers)” he fattened him, male and female he fattened them,

    2:7 and ” YHWH (He exists)” of “Elohiym (Powers)” molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a being of life,

    Berean, we know that scripture directly tells us that YHVH created heaven and earth alone/Himself and we know that it was done through His Powers.  YHVH directly goes from speaking about Himself creating heaven and earth to then immediately speaking prophecy concerning the son of Jesse. Jesus is that son of Jesse, he is not YHVH nor was he with YHVH in the beginning creating heaven and earth, such would make Isaiah into a liar. 

    #869637
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU:

    Jodi, there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.
    The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
    So again it is very clear that there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.

    ME: 

    Maybe you posted this before you saw my second post giving some clarification, so maybe now you can see that there is no proof of Jesus pre-existing from that passage, once you have the knowledge to the word “Christ”, as that word/title applies to others besides Jesus. 

    The word Christ/Christos  means “anointed one”, which when you have been anointed such is a TITLE you can rightfully be given.

    1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

    David was a Christos/Mashiyach,  he was an “anointed one”. He was anointed OF the Spirit of YHVH. 

    The Spirit that is of an “anointed one” (Christos/Christ/Mashiyach/Messiah) is YHVH’s Spirit. 

     David had the Spirit of Christos within him, that’s NOT Jesus’s spirit in him, that is the Spirit of YHVH in him. Likewise the prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them too in this same manner. 

    People are anointed (Christos) of the Spirit of YHVH, therefore the Spirit of the Christos is the Spirit of YHVH. 

    What we are being told  in 1 Peter 1 is that the Messiahs (anointed prophets having the Spirit of prophecy within them) had been given the prophecy of the coming Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, the promised son of Jesse who would save the world. 

    #869638
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Using the word Christos, to just apply to Jesus is just another false teaching.

    John4:25 The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh

    (who is called Christ);

    therefore, when he is come,

    he will tell us all things. (ONLY JESUS TOLD ALL US  THINGS)

    26Jesus saith to her:

    I AM HE, (THERE’S NO OTHER CHRIST Gene)

    who am speaking with thee.

     

    Gene,  THE PURE TRUTH IS THAT JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT

    HE IS THE ONLY CHRIST!

    HE CAME AND TOLD US EVERYTHING!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869639
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You said:

    Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    The above tells me that angels are present at this creation rather than having been created during it.

    There are a few things I could say to challenge your post but, to continue to keep my responses to you brief, I have this challenge…Job 39:4 only tells you that the sons of God existed when the foundations of the earth were laid, not that they weren’t created in between day one and the laying of the foundations of the earth. Before day one, the earth was formless.

     

     

    #869640
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    Lu…..The word Christ, simply means the anointing of anyone who has the Spirit of God on them,  that includes all the true prophets, of God , including Jesus.  Has nothing to do with any person’s “preexistence” at all.

    Did you mean to address this to me?

     

    #869642
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU:The “giving” of his body was figurative, not literal.

    No one really ate Jesus’ flesh or drank his blood. He uses bread and wine as objects to remind us of his bodily sacrifice for our sins.

    ME: My perception in that particular post was not regarding:

    THE EATING AND DRINKING OF JESUS’ FLESH AND BLOOD! 

    So I am not going to comment on that for now!

    My perception was REGARDING THE WORDS BY JESUS WHEN HE SAID

    Eat this is my body which IS GIVEN FOR YOU…...

    OK Lu?

    SO JESUS IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED THAT

    HE GAVE HIS BODY  AS A SACRIFICE IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE!

    JESUS WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, PURPOSELY DIED AND

    GAVE HIS DEAD BODY TO THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    ON HIS RESURRECTION! Well mentioned in

    1Peter 1:3 Blessed be THE GOD and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath

    REGENERATED US

    unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4Unto an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade,

    reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

    TO BE REVEALED ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD

    THIS IS MENTIONED IN

    1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. 

    The fact that the Father provided JESUS’ OWN FLESH BODY!

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN! 

    Asserted in Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not: but a body thou hast fitted to me:

    Also predicted in Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said:

    God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son. So they went on together.

    THE HOLY GHOST PRODUCED JESUS’ SOUL THE SON OF GOD!

    The fact that the Holy Ghost is BOTH

    THE SOUL OF GOD, and

    THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH!

    The fact also the Jesus BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY GHOST

    WHAT IS FLESH IS FLESH and WHAT IS SPIRIT IS SPIRIT!

    This is pinpointed out in

    luke1:35And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Notice not ONCE the title FATHER is mentioned since the angel referred to

    THE SON OF GOD!

    I REPEAT: JESUS, THE SON OF MAN SIMPLY GAVE HIS DEAD BODY TO THE HUMAN RACE !  ON HIS RESURRECTION AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    SIMPLY TO PRESENT US HOLY TO THE FATHER IN HIMSELF! Well clear in

    Colossians 1:22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death,

    to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him:

    The FLESH AND BLOOD BODY OF THE HUMAN RACE WAS REJECTED BY THE FATHER ON EVE’S SIN, THE MOTHER OF ALL CURSED AND MORTAL FLESH!

    HUMANITY REQUIRED AN ENTIRELY

    NEW FLESH BODY, NOT OF EARTH BUT  OF HEAVEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THE FATHER WOULD BE IN THE POSITION TO BE

    OUR FATHER ALSO IN THE FLESH

    ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD! 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869643
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    We read that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
    This proves that Christ existed at that time, prior to His human existence.

    Hi Danny,

    Some people have trouble taking the bible for what it says.
    Seems preconceived religious indoctrination gets in their way.

    The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
    distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

    ____________
    God bless
    ED J

    #869644
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    you said:

    It says that he is the Father of all spirits.

    When did He become the Father of the Son? What was He before He became the Father of the Son?

    #869645
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks for the link, Berean.

    #869646
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Where is Jesus’ body right now according to you?

    #869647
    Ed J
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Jodi, there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.
    The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
    So again it is very clear that there is no spirit of Christ without Christ.

    God bless,

    Danny

    Hi Danny,

    They think:
    The “spirit of Christ” is the “spirit of God” instead of the spirit of the son.

    It is sad to see people stray far away from what the bible actually teaches!

    “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made
    of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under
    the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye
    are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
    crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but
    a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (Gal 4:4-7)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869653
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Hope you have had a good day!

    Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    YOU: The above tells me that angels are present at this creation rather than having been created during it.
    There are a few things I could say to challenge your post but, to continue to keep my responses to you brief, I have this challenge…Job 39:4 only tells you that the sons of God existed when the foundations of the earth were laid, not that they weren’t created in between day one and the laying of the foundations of the earth. Before day one, the earth was formless.

    ME:

    LU, that’s not a challenge really, this is more of a challenge I believe, why isn’t their creation mentioned then in the account thereof in Genesis? We have living beings who Jesus likens us to according to the resurrection, who are called Sons of God, but God much rather speak to the creation of herbs than bother to mention them?  Do you have understanding as to why YHVH would leave them out of the creation account, I’d really like to know your thoughts on that?

    The fact that their creation isn’t mentioned at all and they are shouting for joy early on during that creation, I’d have to say that’s a pretty good indicator they were created beforehand.

    When creation is just getting started, things are really picking up, and you see the corner stone being laid, that sounds like a logical point to get excited enough that you feel like shouting for joy, having the great anticipation of what might be created next upon that foundation.

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