John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,941 through 21,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869655
    Berean
    Participant

    JODI

    As long as You deny THE DIVINITY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, your speech WILL BE  UNACCEPTABLE !

     

     

    #869656
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj……And because we are the Sons of God also,  God has sent the Spirit of the “ANOINTING”  or Christos,  into our hearts also, THAT IS NOT SAYING THE CHRISTOS OR ANOINTING SPIRIT IS JESUS AT ALL. It is saying Jesus has the anointing spirit on him. 

    So we by that anointing process are Jesus’ actual brothers and sisters and all who have the anointing Spirit on them are Christ’s themselves too,  just like Jesus is.
    “you” must be born again” of the Spirit as Jesus the Anointed one of God was also> trying to make Jesus out to be the anointing Spirit or Christos, HIMSELF,  is a false teaching. Jesus is the “ANOINTED” ONE, OF GOD, BECAUSE GOD ANOINTED HIM,  BUT HE IS NOT HIMSELF THE ANOINTING SPIRIT, HE HAS IT, SO MUST WE ALL, IN ORDER TO BECOME BORN AGAIN SON OF GOD.

    I THROUGH YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

     

    #869658
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……what Jodi and I are telling you is the truth ,  Jesus is not the Anointing Spirit or Christos “himself”, he has the “anointing ” Spirit on him , he is THE “ANOINTED ” ONE. who GOD the Father , anointed at the Jordan river with his Holy Spirit, making him the Christo’s   or ANOINTED ONE OF GOD.  

    If you don’t understand that, it would explain a lot of your misunderstandings  of scriptures.  It is these basic things that cause a lot of confusion . Because it molded our understanding of Jesus and who he really is.

    remember what Jesus said, “” for “many” will come in my name saying, “I am the Christ”,  and DECEIVE,   “MANY”. 

    So preaching Jesus as “himself”  being the Christ  or the anointing Spirit “himself”, is a deception. Preaching Jesus as having the anointing Spirit of God on him is not a deception. He that has ears to hear let him hear.
    peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

     

    #869659
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @edj

    Hi Danny,

    They think:
    The “spirit of Christ” is the “spirit of God” instead of the spirit of the son.
    It is sad to see people stray far away from what the bible actually teaches!

    Hi Ed J,
    I agree with you wholeheartedly there.
    Yes, Galatians 4:6 is very clear:
    “Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!”

    God bless,
    Danny

    #869660
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Gene, No one denies the spirit of God the Father.
    But Jesus himself has a spirit too – the spirit of Christ.
    See Galatians 4:6!
    We need BOTH. See John 14:23!

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869661
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    You wrote

    So preaching Jesus as “himself”  being the Christ  or the anointing Spirit “himself”, is a deception. Preaching Jesus as having the anointing Spirit of God on him is not a deception. He that has ears to hear let him hear. 

    Me

    WHY You Said That(So preaching Jesus as “himself”  being the Christ…IS a deception)  ?

     

    Jésus HIMSELF had approved Peter         when  he answer To Jesus :

    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    BEFORE his baptism, Jesus is called “Christ” by King Herod
    Matt. 2
    [4] After gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked them where Christ was to be born.

     

    #869662
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: Where is Jesus’ body right now according to you?

    Before answering your question be aware, there was a particular Jesus’ body who died, buried, and resurrected, and there was also a Jesus’ body who died, glorified, on His death and became ONE SUBSTANCE with the Holy Ghost on the cross and became

    JESUS CHRIST.

    NOT JUST A BODY ANYMORE, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, THE UNIQUE CARRIER OF THE FULL DEITY. BUT ONE UNIQUE EMBODIMENT COMPOSED OF

    SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH. THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY  Colossians 2:9

    GODMAN on earth, John 13:31-32, John4:36.37, John17:1

    So which Jesus’ body you are interested in.

    Keep in mind that you asked me about a particular body NOT ABOUT JESUS as a being! So read hereunder:

    1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ,…..

    So the church is also Jesus’ body, or more precise HIS MYSTICAL BODY! Now read hereunder regarding Jesus’ body

    1 Corinthians 15:40 And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial and another of the terrestrial. 41One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory.

    The above is a reference to the universe in general, as Jesus’ body, ALL IN HIM!

    The fact that Jesus in the last supper said those precise words:

    EAT THIS IS MY BODY HOLDING THE BREAD A PHYSICAL ELEMENT. ORIGINALLY ADAM’S. Also mentioned by Jesus in

    John6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth,

    but for that which endureth unto life everlasting,

    which the Son of man will give you.

    For him hath God, the Father, sealed.

    ETERNAL LIFE SEALED IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION, TO SUSTAIN ALL IN HIM and ALL BY HIM.

    ASSERTED HEREUNDER

    1 Colossians 15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    The above Lu is Jesus’body as THE UNIQUE IMAGE OF GOD before creation STARTED, the only and unique embodiment of God hidden and unknown. For the sake of the free will of the heavenly realms in the probation period to justify their loyalty to God WITHOUT HIS VISIBLE PRESENCE THROUGH FAITH.

    the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, (GENESIS 1:1) visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

    According to the above, ALL THINGS ARE IN A WAY ALSO THE BODY OF JESUS, WELL ASSERTED FURTHER DOWN

    18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

     that all fullness should dwell;

    20And through him to reconcile ALL THINGS  unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    Now to Jesus’ own words:

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,

    will draw all things to myself.

    In the above Lu Jesus said that when He is lifted up will draw all things onto Himself. But in actual fact from the very beginning,  ALL THINGS  were in Him, and by him, with respect to 1 Colossians 15. plus also that HE WAS/IS IN ONE GLORY,

     THE GENUINE IMAGE AND EMBODIMENT OF GOD, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN!

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

    The only reason that Jesus declared so when He is lifted up, simply as Lucifer rebelled and never accepted to be subject to

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN, since though divine, is still JUST A MAN,

    without a direct confrontation with him

    THE BEGINNING and the only angel of light, the primordial light, the morning star, by which light all the heavenly realms were fully luminous, unaware of that in him, IN HIS HEART was

    ETERNAL LIFE, HIS LIFE, THE GENUINE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, AND THE BRIGHT MORNING STAR!

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE!

    In the beginning (LUCIFER) was the word……

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869663
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Thanks, I am having a great day. We are seeing some signs of spring here finally.

    You said:

    …why isn’t their creation mentioned then in the account thereof in Genesis?

    Gen 2:1 says: Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.

    It is there that the angels are mentioned. The host of the heavens were the angels, as well as the sun, moon and stars, and planets.

    Scripture tells us that the image (i.e.the Son) of the invisible God existed before the angels existed, btw. It also tells us that it was the Son that all things in heaven were made, in the Son and through the Son and for the Son.

    Col 1 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 

    Be well, LU

    #869664
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Where is Jesus’ body now, that was born of Mary?

    #869669
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    When did He become the Father of the Son? What was He before He became the Father of the Son?

    When the begat or created the first life to be with him would be my guess.

    We know that he was called the Father even before Jesus came into this world. Read on.


    Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

    Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

    Jer 3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

    Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

    Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

    Pro 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

    Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

    Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

    Exo 4:22,23 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    Deu 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

    Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    #869670
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    God doesn’t change.

    Yet you think the Father came from an earlier entity which spawned both the Father and the Son.

    So the Father had a father according to your teaching.

    Did that father of the Father have a father before that one must wonder if we were to take your doctrine seriously.

    Of course we don’t take it seriously.

    #869672
    Ed J
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Gene, No one denies the spirit of God the Father.
    But Jesus himself has a spirit too – the spirit of Christ.
    See Galatians 4:6!
    We need BOTH. See John 14:23!

    God bless,

    Danny

    Good Job Danny!

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me,
    he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and
    WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.” (John 14:23)

    Who is the “WE” ? Simple…

    1 The Spirit of God – God’s HolySpirit himself
    …………….and
    2 The Spirit of Christ – Spirit of the Son

    “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:8-9)

    Romans 8:8 does not mean if you reside in the flesh as in haven’t died yet,
    Instead Romans 8:9 makes it clear you are a spirit-filled person containing BOTH…

    1 The Spirit of the Father – “Spirit of God”
    ………………and
    2 The Spirit of the Son  –  “Spirit of Christ”

    Again Danny, may their eyes be opened to “The Truth”!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869673
    Ed J
    Participant

    JODI

    As long as You deny THE DIVINITY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, your speech WILL BE UNACCEPTABLE !

    Hi Berean,

    Long winded speeches that go no-where as ‘they’ (these speeches) are riddled with errors!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869674
    Ed J
    Participant

    And…

    If you try to UNPACK these speeches “they” (Jodi and Gene)
    will simply ignore your points, and go into yet another
    speech that is riddled with errors. How sad really.

    conversations that go no-where!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869675
    Ed J
    Participant

    I THROUGH YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT.

    What I understand is this Gene:

    That you and Jodi deny and try to explain away these plain texts,
    trying to discount them – based on your false preconceived ideas of truth…

    “But thou,
    Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
    yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
    whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

    …………………..and

    “And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son?
    42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms,

    The LORD (YeHoVaH) said unto my Lord (Christ),
    Sit thou on my right hand,
    43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    44 David therefore calleth him (Christ) Lord,
    how is he then his (David’s) son?
    (Luke 20:41-44)

    To all……what Jodi and I are telling you is the truth,
    Jesus is not the Anointing Spirit or Christos…

    No-one is buying into your fleshly errors – NO-ONE!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869676
    Ed J
    Participant

    PS Danny

    Notice how I didn’t say he was lying? – as you do not like this wording

    #869679
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj……Cleaver how you eliminate parts of a post , to make it out to be false, Satan himself couldn’t do a better job.   Now as I recall you saying that the word was not Jesus>. Have you changed again on that?  Please tell us again who the Word to you is then.

    The spirit of Jesus spoken of in scriptures is the HOLY SPIRIT he was “ANOINTED WITH”  which is from GOD THE FATHER. 

    Scripture says,  “not your false interpretations “.  This ,   Rom 8:11…..”now if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you. ‘He’ that raised up Christ (the anointed one) from the dead shall “also” quicken your “mortal” BODIES by his Spirit that dwells in you”.

    No scripture says, we has the man Jesus’ Spirit at all. We have the “anointing” Spirit that Jesus had on him , dwelling in us, who have it.  That is the same Spirit that was “IN” Jesus. That makes the,  “ONE” GOD “IN” ALL AND “THROUGH” ALL.

    Edj…… Go back to your drawing board and try To find more trash talk, to deny what Jodi and I both are saying.  Your half quotes and one liner trash talk, doesn’t work on those who have the truth of God “in’ them.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #869680
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj….. Where did Jodi deny Jesus had the Devine nature in him , she, as I , deny his deity,  another words, that he was a “GOD ” as you and other false teachers believe,  were not denying his Devine Nature he had, nor do we deny the Devine nature we also have, as a result of the same spirit put in us too.

    Doesn’t scripture say , that we are partakers of that “Devine nature” ?  Why not try to find that if you can, it would be a good exercise for you and others false teachers  who think like you. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #869681
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @edj

    Good Job Danny!

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me,
    he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and
    WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.” (John 14:23)

    Who is the “WE” ? Simple…

    1 The Spirit of God – God’s HolySpirit himself
    …………….and
    2 The Spirit of Christ – Spirit of the Son

    “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:8-9)

    Romans 8:8 does not mean if you reside in the flesh as in haven’t died yet,
    Instead Romans 8:9 makes it clear you are a spirit-filled person containing BOTH…

    1 The Spirit of the Father – “Spirit of God”
    ………………and
    2 The Spirit of the Son  –  “Spirit of Christ”

    Again Danny, may their eyes be opened to “The Truth”!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    You laid it out perfectly.

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869682
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @edj

    PS Danny

    Notice how I didn’t say he was lying? – as you do not like this wording

    That’s fine, because maybe he is just deceived.

    God bless,

    Danny

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