John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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March 7, 2021 at 8:45 pm#869602
Berean
Participant
Hi Carmel
I will raise him up in the last day.
OBVIOUS: ON HIS DEATH ON EARTH!

I am not sure I fully understand your question / assertion ….. The last day is not at the cross (on His death)but when Jesus returns ….When Jesus comes into his reign, he will bring his faithful children back to life forever and he will take them to Heaven with him.
2 Thess.4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I hope I have at least partially answered your question / statement
Blessings

March 7, 2021 at 9:16 pm#869603
Berean
Participant
Jodi
I gave you a very good number of scriptures that say in fact that our one God the Father (NOT JESUS) raised Jesus from the dead. You also contradict what the definition of death is that the scriptures give us and I agree with what Gene said in his post to you about that.
Me
You do not understand what it means that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, because YOU deny the divinity of Christ …..
YES, IT IS THE FATHER WHO RESURRECTED CHRIST, HE ORDERED HIM TO RESUME HIS LIFE….
THE LIFE HE HAS IN HIMSELF
SEE JOHN 1
In him was life(Zoé); and the life was the light of men.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.(John 10:18)

March 8, 2021 at 4:56 am#869604
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean…….The power Jesus had was in him, it was the spirit of the the living God .
Rom 8:11…..”But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, “HE” that raised up Christ from the “Dead” shall also quicken your mortal bodies “BY” his Spirit that dwells in you.”
So if we have that same Spirit in us, we also have the power of being resurected from the dead dwelling in us, “Exactly” as Jesus did. But that “power” was and is given by God the Father only. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead, He was truly “dead” , exactly the same as all true Saint’s are when they die also.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
March 8, 2021 at 7:00 am#869605
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@Jodi
Hi Jodi, thanks for your reply.
Well the Bible clearly says that we have the spirit of Jesus Christ.
Not just the spirit of God the Father.
Galatians 4:6 “Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!”
As a matter of fact, we have BOTH the spirit of the Father and of His Son.
John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him.”
So I have to ask you the same question again:
How can a mere man live in Paul and the rest of the New Testament believers all at once without also being God?
God bless,
Danny
March 8, 2021 at 8:23 am#869606
carmel
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU: I am not sure I fully understand your question / assertion ….. The last day is not at the cross (on His death)but when Jesus returns ….When Jesus comes into his reign, he will bring his faithful children back to life forever and he will take them to Heaven with him.
Berean that is only one occurrence related to the term “ON THE LAST DAY” and in scripture like other phrases and terms they don’t always refer to just one SAME instance.
Now I myself referred to a particular scripture related to the term “RAISING UP” mentioned by Jesus which I am positively sure that HE DIDN’T REFER TO HIS RESURRECTION for the simple reason that His resurrection did occur ON THE THIRD DAY, which has nothing to do with HIS RAISING UP ON THE LAST DAY mentioned by Jesus! Here is this particular scripture which I feel is completely ignored by the majority of the believers, which ironically it is an event,
THANKS TO JESUS, that we believers should all be more than keen to experience which is
THE EVERLASTING LIFE! Now Let’s read again from John 6
John6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.
Jesus introduced the MYSTERIOUS BELIEF of LIFE EVERLASTING! which we all know will occur immediately on one’s death.
28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29Jesus answered, and said to them:
This is the work of God, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM whom he hath sent.
JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS, as simple as that! The rest is in Jesus’ hands,
Now Jesus mentioned this concept in
John5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment,
but is passed from death to life.
Immediately on A BELIEVER’S death,
death BECOMES ETERNAL LIFE!
Jesus also referred to this particular moment of one’s death to Martha in
John 11:22 Martha, therefore, said to Jesus: Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22But now also I know that whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith to her: Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith to him:
I know that he shall rise again, in the resurrection at the last day.
In the above Berean Martha referred also to your same understanding regarding the term “AT THE LAST DAY”
Then Jesus made it clear of what He was on about and said:
25Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life:
Notice Jesus made it clear that
HE IS BOTH THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE!
Which definitely means that though a believer dies, IN ONE INSTANT, IN A FLICK OF AN EYE, EXPERIENCES
BOTH THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE!
IN JESUS!
Then he continued and said:
he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
As clear as crystal Berean: He that believes in Jesus, THOUGH DIES obvious as a human being in FLESH,
HE LIVES ETERNALLY GLORIFIED IN HIS SOUL!
ETERNAL LIFE FULLY ACTIVE,
deliberately through the believer’s own faith,
ON THE LAST DAY of his existence on earth.
Now back to
John6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me,
I should lose nothing;
The above is directed to Jesus’ death, where He confirmed that though He, “THE WORD” the Son of Man, Jesus’human nature dies, HE LOSES NOTHING,
BOTH OF HIS DIVINITY AND OF HIS HUMANITY BUT IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,
HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH,
GLORIFIES IT WHEN HIS FLESH SPIRITUALIZED, BECOME
ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST, Jesus’divine nature John13:31-32, John 4:36,37, John17:1 in
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN ON EARTH! CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:
but should raise it up again on the last day.
In the above Berean, WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT, Jesus referred to Himself, precisely
TO HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS,
THE LAST DAY OF JESUS’ EXISTENCE ON EARTH!
BY WHICH DEATH HE RAISED HIMSELF UP AND GLORIFIED TO THE HIGHEST STATE OF
GODMAN ON EARTH IN
JESUS CHRIST
40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that EVERYONE who seeth the Son, and believeth in him,
may have life everlasting, and
I will raise him up in the last day.

ONCE A BELIEVER DIES HE EXPERIENCES, PRECISELY
HIS GLORIFICATION BOTH IN HIS SOUL and
IN HIS FLESH ACCORDING TO HIS BELIEF and PRACTICE IN CHRIST JESUS.
The fact that we should imitate Jesus throughout our lives.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

March 8, 2021 at 10:11 am#869607
Berean
Participant
Hi Carmel
I don’t believe in the life of the “soul” after death.
1 Thess. 5:23 tells us that the human being is made up of spirit, soul and body
It’s 3 things are inseparable …..
May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your whole being, spirit, soul and body, be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Thess.5:23)
When we die, our whole being dies: body, soul and spirit are no longer alive
Believer or unbeliever must wait for the resurrection either for eternal life or for final (eternal) death
John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
God bless you
March 8, 2021 at 1:00 pm#869608
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Jesus laid down his life for his sheep that they may have life. Jesus laid down his life so that he could take it (life) again, FOR HIS SHEEP. That is what the passages within John 10 tell you.
Our heavenly Father raised Jesus from the dead you are told in many scriptures, no mention of Jesus having done anything in any one of those passages, it was all our ONE GOD THE FATHER. You pull one passage out of it’s context and create a doctrine that is not only nonsensical but creates multiple contradictions within the bible.
Guess what is true, once our Father raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus raised himself up from where he had been laid, being able to do so because God had made him ALIVE again!!
Pertaining to “divinity” the granted divine nature,
Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Berean, I believe in EXACTLY what the above scriptures directly teach us.
I am promised to DRINK OF THE SAME CUP THAT JESUS DOES!!
I am promised to PARTAKE OF THE SAME EXACT DIVINE NATURE THAT JESUS DOES, FOR HE TRULY IS A FIRSTBORN OF MANY!!
I am promised to RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT CAUSES RIGHTEOUSNESS WHEN I AM RESURRECTED, JUST AS JESUS RECEIVED THE SPIRIT BY PROMISE ALSO WHEN HE WAS RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD!!
IF I AM TO BE MADE INTO THE IMAGE OF THE SON IN ORDER FOR THE WORD TO BE FULFILLED THAT HE BE A FIRSTBORN OF MANY BRETHREN, THEN I AM A CHILD OF GOD JUST AS HE IS, ACCORDING TO BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
March 8, 2021 at 1:13 pm#869609
mikeboll64
Blocked
A couple new Bible videos I made…

March 8, 2021 at 4:41 pm#869611
Jodi
Participant
Hi Danny,
YOU:
How can a mere man live in Paul and the rest of the New Testament believers all at once without also being God?
ME:
To touch on what I said in my earlier post, any person can live within another person. Any human spirit can live within a vast number of other human spirits. Actually I’d argue that our own spirits live continuously with both positive and negative energy coming from other people’s spirits living within us. Once you know someone they then will live within you to a degree dependent upon certain factors. Like I said earlier, even when someone has died and thus has ceased to exist, their spirit lives on in others.
Jesus Christ’s spirit living within you is the light that brings forth eternal life, no other human spirit has that ability and it’s the work of our ONE God the Father’s Spirit that calls you to Jesus.
With that being my understanding, can you see why I wouldn’t believe, for even one second, that the idea of Jesus’s spirit living in me makes him God?
When scripture all throughout tells me that Jesus is a human being, one who was called to righteousness by the God who says there is none like Him, He is the ONLY TRUE GOD, why would I believe in an idea that then creates other passages to be lies?
When scripture tells me that I am to be made into the image of the Son so that the Son can be a firstborn of many brethren as God promised from the beginning, why would I believe in an idea that then makes this into a lie? Or do you believe Danny that we all become God?
Jesus said in John 20, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Jesus IS MY BROTHER, as well he is head over me as my King and Master, but he is not and never will be unto me the one true God.
March 8, 2021 at 8:43 pm#869612
Berean
Participant
Jodi
You believe in a Christ who does not come from heaven, AND you deny The divinity of the true CHRIST
WHY ?
March 8, 2021 at 11:26 pm#869613
Ed J
Participant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnnCzJFuVMc
Mike,
You strain at a gnat but swallow a camel.
You strain to prove the camel you swallowed.
Jesus – No-where in Scripture is said to be “The Word”
____________
God bless
Ed J
March 8, 2021 at 11:35 pm#869614
Ed J
Participant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGTxx2xbGFQ&t=12s
Hi Mike,
It doesn’t say there are many god’s,
it instead says there are only many “called” gods. (1 Corinthians 8:5)
Here you are trying to back-translate the word “gods” into the text.
In the text you cite the word used is “EL-o-heem”, which can mean:
1 God
2 gods
3 Angels
4 Magistrates
Your error is plain for all to see.
Once again you strain to prove the camel you swallowed.
____________
God bless
Ed J
March 8, 2021 at 11:44 pm#869615
Ed J
Participant
And besides that Mike, God’s name is YHVH: Hebrew has No “W” sound.
The vowel points in God’s name YeHoVaH are: Sheva Cholam Kamatz !
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14)
“That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
art the most high over all the earth.” (Psalms 83:18)
March 9, 2021 at 5:14 am#869616
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike……The word God means a relationship with something it can be a person any person or thing any thing, if you believe it is the power you trust in, then it your God, But to us true believers , we only have
“ONE” TRUE GOD”…..AND THAT “PERSON” IS YEHOVAH, he is the “ONLY ” POWER we lean on for our support, and trust in.
The original word for God Was a Hebrew Pictorial word , of a “OX” head with SHEPHERDS Staff leaning towards it. This represented , the power (OX HEAD) the Israelites leaned on (Shepherds staff) for support.
So it never represented a single person or thing , anything can be ‘YOUR’ TRUE , GOD IF YOU PUT YOUR TRUST IN FOR YOUR POWER IN LIFE. But unto us true believers we have “only” one true God and that “person” is “YEHOVAH”, he is “OUR” only God we trust in.
so the point of many other God is a mute point because there are many true God’s to different people , even their money can be their true God, but not to the true Believers , they ONLY HAVE “ONE’ TRUE GOD, and it’s the same GOD THAT JESUS HAS.
The word GOD is a “Descriptor of a relationship “, it is not a person, or thing , but your relation with a person or thing, no matter who or what it is. That is why we nearly always say, our God , their God, the God of this or that or them , my God , and so forth, because we are describing our relationship with something. So in conclusion there are many true God for different people , but not to us true believers, we have but “ONE” TRUE GOD” , ALL THE REST ARE FALSE GOD’S “TO” US.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
March 9, 2021 at 5:48 am#869617
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU: You believe in a Christ who does not come from heaven, AND you deny The divinity of the true CHRIST
WHY ?
ME:
False, I most certainly believe that the anointed (Christos) Jesus was sent out into the world where he was not of the earth but was from heaven.
We are told directly of the timing that Jesus was SENT and where he was coming from upon being sent.
Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached BEFORE HIS COMING the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
John the Baptist had to prepare the way before the coming of our Messiah. Our Messiah DID NOT COME UNTIL after John preached the baptism of repentance.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
YHVH had TO ANOINT (CHRIO) Jesus before he could be SENT as our ANOINTED (CHRISTOS -word origin CHRIO).
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, BECAUSE he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; HE HATH SENT ME to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Above is the work that YHVH sent Jesus to do upon him becoming our Messiah. Below is our Messiah speaking about having finished the work that our ONLY TRUE GOD had sent Jesus to do upon him becoming our Messiah.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Below, tells us directly where our Messiah came from, HE CAME OUT FROM YHVH, and thus he was sent down from heaven.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 15: 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
There is NO Jesus Christ coming down from heaven being sent into the womb of Mary. That is not WHEN Jesus Christ was sent from heaven.
When our ONLY TRUE GOD YHVH’s Spirit came to abode within Jesus without measure and he was THEN sent, he was coming out from YHVH from heaven. John the baptist prepared his way BEFORE HIS COMING.
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
False, I believe in the divine nature of Jesus Christ exactly how scripture teaches it, which I recently gave those passages to you.

March 9, 2021 at 5:56 am#869618
Jodi
Participant
Berean,
Please speak to how Isaiah’s passages below fit into your doctrine. I have said that the below passages CONTRADICT your doctrine and you don’t seem to have an answer.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Isaiah 45: 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified…. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isaiah42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Berean, these passages make it clear that,
Jesus is not YHVH, Jesus is YHVH’s SERVANT.
YHVH is one person where there is no one like Him and no other true God but Him.
YHVH by Himself created heaven and earth, where He spoke in the beginning and the light was formed. YHVH also made Jesus for to be a light unto mankind.
Such directly contradicts your doctrine.
March 9, 2021 at 7:55 am#869619
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@Jodi
Hi Jodi,
We read that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (1 Peter 1:11).
This proves that Christ existed at that time, prior to His human existence.
March 9, 2021 at 10:31 am#869625
Berean
Participant
Hi LU

@Berean
Yes…your video nailed it on the head. Where can I find that video? That has been my main message on here and this picture is something that I found to most closely represent the notion of something coming from eternal existence that results in both a Father and an offspring, see here:

Imagine this as a picture of the eternal essence going from one, into two, resulting in a Father and a son, both from eternal essence and both identical to each other.
Blessings, LU

Me
Sorry Lu…. I am very late to answer you
I realize now that I did not answer you ….

Here IS the link:
Prove all things by Nader Mansour
Blessings

March 9, 2021 at 10:43 am#869626
Berean
Participant
Jodi
Please speak to how Isaiah’s passages below fit into your doctrine. I have said that the below passages CONTRADICT your doctrine and you don’t seem to have an answer.

My ANSWER
ISAIAH 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Genesis 1:26
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
LET US MAKE MAN…
GOD SPOKE TO WHOM ???????
JODI. 🤔
March 9, 2021 at 10:56 am#869627
Proclaimer
Participant
@mikeboll64
If you are qualitatively something it doesn’t mean that you are that thing.
It means you could be that thing or like that thing.
For example, I am a man. Yes that means I am a man in nature and not the Man which was Adam.
But someone could call me an angel and no I am not an angel, but like an angel in that I am good.
Let’s look at scripture. It says that God is a rock. It says that those of Jesus are light and salt. It says that Israel is a fig tree. And it says that the word of God is a sword. Further, even the definite article doesn’t always make you that thing. Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Thus, if Jesus is a god, it doesn’t mean he is an actual smaller god than the one true God. It could mean he is like God or that he is divine as that is God’s nature.
But let’s run with your idea here for a minute and accept that Jesus is literally a god. Why do we not read in scripture then, that a god called Jesus Christ healed people. Or a god named Jesus rode on a donkey. Or a god was baptized. And what of other gods. Jesus said ‘ye are gods’. How come we never read that a group of gods challenged Jesus or that Jesus gave a large group of gods some fish and bread.
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