John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #869572
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I believe that your interpretation of various scriptures create contradictions with other scriptures.

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

    Isaiah 45: 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 45:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified…. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

    Isaiah42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Berean, these passages make several things very clear, but for now, I am going to give you just a few examples of the truth .

    Jesus is not YHVH, Jesus is YHVH’s SERVANT.

    YHVH is one person where there is no one like Him and no other true God but Him.

    YHVH by Himself created heaven and earth, where He spoke in the beginning and the light was formed. YHVH also made Jesus for to be a light unto mankind.

     

    #869573
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Thanks for your reply!

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi, Who came in the flesh?

    words or Jesus Christ?

    Jesus came in the flesh and “is” still coming in the flesh today. Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27).

    1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

    John uses the perfect tense here in Greek, meaning past action with continuing results in the present.

    ME:

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    My understanding,

    Christ means anointed, which at the river Jordan Jesus of Nazareth was anointed with the Spirit, the only mortal man of flesh who received God’s Spirit without measure, who was THEN sent out into the world coming directly from heaven/from the will of YHVH to perform YHVH’s will. Such makes Jesus the anointed (Christos) into The Word of God spoken by Isaiah, made true in the flesh.

    By that Spirit upon him, Jesus would not fail to fulfill what was required of him in order to bring forth The Word of Life, YHVH’s promise of eternal life.

    Jesus in other instances we could rightfully say was The Word made true in the flesh, like when he gave his life unto death on the cross, and when he was resurrected from the dead becoming the firstborn of many brethren. Could we also say that when the Son of Man returns that too is The Word made true as he comes to sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh?!

    #869574
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Thank you, I’m doing pretty good! I hope all is well with you too!

    YOU:

    Regarding 1 John 2:23

    Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

    From what I understand of your beliefs, you deny that there was a Son of God that existed in a living way in the image of his father, before creation.

    It seems that you believe that the Son of God merely existed as a plan of God before creation and not as a living son.

    Is that correct?

    If that is true, you believe that there was a time when God was not a father. The plan to have a child does not make one a father. My 5 year old granddaughter plans to have a child someday but she is not a mother just because she plans on it. Surely you can agree to that??

    ME:

    I like how you put that, “in a living way”.

    God= our heavenly Father whose hallowed name is YHVH

    I say that so when I write the word “God” below you fully understand who I mean.

    So to clarify and I guess be a bit technical, it’s not correct to say that I deny that there was a Son of God that existed before creation.

    The celestial messengers of God are God’s Sons. They are eternally led by the Spirit of God, so thus they are eternal  Sons of God. They existed prior to the creation we read in Genesis.

    Yes, you are correct to say that I don’t believe that God’s Son Jesus existed before the creation of Genesis. Many scriptures make that very clear to me.

    In human terms, a man planning to be a father does not make him a father because of that plan. Not until a woman has conceived of his seed does the man become an actual father. A human male can “plan” to be a father all he wants, but that itself doesn’t guarantee that he will actually ever become a father.  This is not the same for God, for if He “plans” to be a Father such cannot be undone.

    Moreover,

    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. 15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

    So to God, wouldn’t it be that if He plans to be a Father, that according to Him that does make him a Father from the moment of His plan?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but you apply God our Father to exist as a certain kind of being where then Jesus is His only true Son as he exists as the same kind of being that God our Father is? Then in addition you believe that this Father and Son together make up our one God?

    I on the other hand believe that there is but “one God the Father”, and that Jesus is a human who was born of the Spirit of God at the river Jordan where he became the only mortal man to be begotten of the Spirit without measure. That measure is a guarantee that one will not become worthy of death.  I believe that God’s Spirit became a witness to Jesus’s human spirit that he is a Son of God. I believe that Jesus as a mortal man, was God’s only begotten Son as it applies to him being the only mortal human to be born of the Spirit without measure. Upon rising from the dead he BECAME A FIRSTBORN OF MANY BRETHREN, no longer an only begotten, as the context of such only applied to mortal humans.  When he was brought back to life having received the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT given to him for all eternity at a measure that causes him to walk in all of God’s ways, he became an eternal Son of God. This Son of Man who is a Son of God according to the Spirit, will return to earth. When the Son of Man does return, his faithful will be raised from the dead where they will be given not only a new heart of flesh but also they will receive the Spirit of God. That Spirit is promised to cause them to walk in all of God’s ways too. They by being led by the Spirit of God in all things for all eternity, will thus be also eternal Sons of God along side their King and brother Jesus as he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh.

     

     

     

     

     

    #869576
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I am not against Genesis 1 WHERE It IS written That God created the heaven and the earth…..

    WE Know Aldo That God CREATED by His WORD. ….OK?

    Psalms 33:6 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath
    of his mouth.”
    The Hebrew word for “breath” is וחּר r ach) which is the same word translated ‘spirit’ in Genesis 1:2.
    The meaning should be clear: the spirit of God is the breath of God. This is confirmed further by Jesus
    in John 20:22 “And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the
    Holy Ghost.” Jesus breathed His own Spirit, not someone else. It is this same spirit that is mentioned in
    Genesis 1:2, “the Spirit of God”, which can also be translated “breath of God”.
    “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
    The Spirit of God is equated with His breath. That is what the word means.

    #869584
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You produce contradictions with your understanding and there can be no contradictions.

    Psalms 33:6 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.”

    YHVH’s word, YHVH’s own breath from His own MOUTH Berean!

    Your response to me had not one word about the passages from Isaiah that I gave. Can you not speak to them showing that their given truths are held within your doctrine?

    I’ll just assume you saw I posted Genesis read those two passages at the beginning of my post and decided to respond without reading the passages from Isaiah. Please read those passages!

    We are told directly that YHVH created heaven and earth alone He says, by Himself He says.

    Moreover, in the passages that speak of YHVH creating heaven and earth YHVH directly thereafter speaks prophecy of the son of Jesse saying that He WILL give His glory to him a glory that is not for anyone else to receive. 

    This son of man that would come from the seed of Jesse is identified as a future servant to our Creator YHVH where he will not speak his own words nor do his own works but do YHVH’s by the power of YHVH’s Spirit that is upon him. Through Jesus God is with us, hence why he is called Immanuel. 

    Berean, when Jesus was raised from the dead no more to return to corruption, he received the Holy Spirit according to a promise, where the Spirit of YHVH would eternally dwell within him. The prophecies concerning Jesus the son of Jesse carrying out YHVH’s will, performing YHVH’s works in YHVH’s name through YHVH’s Spirit ARE NOT YET COMPLETED. 

    John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    By the will of YHVH that Jesus followed and through the power of the Spirit of YHVH dwelling within Jesus, Jesus was able to give his disciples the Holy Spirit to receive. These disciples received the Spirit and were sent, just as Jesus had received the Spirit and was sent.  

     

    #869586
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hello All,

    There can be NO CONTRADICTIONS!

    Jesus IS an anthropos (HUMAN BEING) not some half-breed one of a kind being, nor is he some return to a previous being. He is a human being with God’s Spirit within him at a measure that makes him a heavenly man, a man who is led by the Spirit in all things and thus is a Son of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him,Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. …. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    The promise was that the son of David would be a savior bringing forth life. The promise was that God would be a Father unto David’s son. The promise was that the son of David would be settled into God’s house. The promise was of a Son of Man being exalted to sit at God’s right hand. The promise is of a Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory. The promise is that by a man called by God to righteousness we will be judged, a man who knows by his own experience our suffering. The promise is that the son of Jesse with the power of God’s Spirit upon him will slay the wicked. The promise is that we will have a King who will reign with peace as he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh. The promise is that the son of Jesse will bring forth a glorious rest.

    ALL THIS GLORY WAS OF GOD FOR THIS MAN JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS and JESUS KNEW IT where he took his faith in The Word of Life to the cross. Before the world was God’s WORD was eternal life through the man Jesus Christ, whereby all things were thus created by reason of him and for him. Before Abraham and John the Baptist even existed Jesus was before them in rank as their future savior and king, God’s chief cornerstone. Without the anointing of the son of David for to become our savior, nothing would have been made that was made. God had declared from the beginning a man would come and execute His PURPOSE, an eternal earth filled with righteousness and eternal life, where Jesus would be it’s firstborn among many brethren.

     

    #869587
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean………What we say must take in consideration the whole bible ,not just one scripture here and there, that’s what causes all the misunderstandings we have here,  if what we say does not meet all the scriptures written in scriptures then we produce counterdictions of all kinds,  that is Jodie point and mine also.

    If we say, for instance,  Jesus created everything , and in other places in our texts it say the GOD alone and by himself created it all, then we have a contradiction, right? Then some come along and say we’ll yes God Did it , but “through” Jesus,  but the text says God did it “alone” and by “himself’.  So then that requires a intense research into the words used that caused the contradictions .   For instance like the Greek word for “by” and “through”  “dia” Which has other meanings then  used in the text, which created the countradiction. 

    I am just giving you an examplej, because we have already went through that word many times here, both Jodi and I and many others.  Words are important because they give us our understanding  of what is being said right? And that is a major problem with the Greek language their words can have many different meanings, any true bible scholar will tell you that.

    The point is ,   “truth is the sum of God’s words”. What we say must follow through the “whole” bible text not just some of it. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #869588
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thank you, your post was well stated and clear to Berean!

     

    #869589
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    If Jesus Christ is just a man, why did Paul write, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME (Gal. 2:20)?”
    How can a mere man live in Paul and the rest of the New Testament believers all at once without also being God?

    #869590
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    If Jesus Christ is just a man, why did Paul write, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME (Gal. 2:20)?”
    How can a mere man live in Paul and the rest of the New Testament believers all at once without also being God?

    #869591
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    John 10:18

    No man taketh it (Jesus’s live) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    The Father called the Son to arise, and by his divinity Jesus raised up his dead body (to give life again).HE OBEYED TO HIS FATHER:

    ME: Berean, please read the passages before verse 18 and after so that you can have the true context to what Jesus is saying in that verse. Then as well apply what other scriptures say so that you don’t produce contradictions.

    John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. …

    …25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    Acts 13: 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ 34 As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’

    Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Eph 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

    Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witness.

    Acts 4: 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

    Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

    Acts 10:40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

    Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

    1 Peter 1: 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

    Berean, Jesus laid down his life in order to take life again for his sheep!

    He didn’t lay down his life for the purpose to raise himself from the dead. Jesus went to the cross having faith that God was going to raise him from the dead and he went to the cross for the purpose to take life again for his sheep.  I gave you a very good number of scriptures that say in fact that our one God the Father (NOT JESUS) raised Jesus from the dead. You also contradict what the definition of death is that the scriptures give us and I agree with what Gene said in his post to you about that.

     

     

    #869592
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I have several thoughts towards your post to me, so to keep it short, for starters:

    You stated:

    The celestial messengers of God are God’s Sons. They are eternally led by the Spirit of God, so thus they are eternal  Sons of God. They existed prior to the creation we read in Genesis.

    I would love to know why you think the “celestial messengers of God” were there PRIOR to the beginning of the creation period as opposed to being created DURING the creation period.

    Thanks, LU

    #869594
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: I Believe That: The Father called the Son to rise AND the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself.

    ME: Before I Comment on your perception I want to make you aware of what Jesus said regarding His PARTICULAR raising up, and also through Him, in the same manner, OUR ONE RAISING UP!

    Read hereunder a scripture where Jesus was specific in this regard.

    John6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:

    that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again

    in the last day. 

    40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

    Berean in the above Jesus spoke both of his raising up and also of all those who believe in Him. 

    Now notice Jesus mentioned that this raising up BOTH occur ON THE LAST DAY!

    Reflect:

    When is OUR LAST DAY on earth? Obvious when we die NO? so according to Jesus those who believe in Jesus, PRECISELY ON THEIR DEATH, they become ALIVE! This means that the body dies but the soul for the first time since Adam sin, THE FIRST LIVING SOUL WHICH DIED, commences its life in the spiritual realm. LIFE EVERLASTING! This is also asserted in

    John5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me,

    hath life everlasting;

    and cometh not into judgment, but is

    passed from death to life.

    OK. as clear a crystal FROM DEATH TO LIFE!

    Now here comes what I am aiming to:

    WHEN WAS JESUS, LAST DAY ONE EARTH? Obvious 

    on the cross!No?

    My question is  WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED ON JESUS’DEATH SINCE

    HE RAISED HIMSELF UP?

    AND THROUGH HIS RISING UP, all those who believe in Him also would be raised up by Jesus.

    I WAIT FOR YOUR COMMENTS!

    #869595
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU:

    If Jesus Christ is just a man, why did Paul write, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME (Gal. 2:20)?”
    How can a mere man live in Paul and the rest of the New Testament believers all at once without also being God?

    ME: Sorry this is a rather long post!

    We are told specifically that Jesus is a human in a great number of places, so that is exactly what kind of being I believe him to be. If he was additionally some other kind of being he wouldn’t actually be a human but a different kind of being of which he then would have been called.

    Prophecy was that a human would one day come to be our savior, that human arrived. Prophecy was that a human would sit at God’s right hand and return to earth to sit on an eternal throne. There is nothing in any scripture that tells me he is more than a human.

    That fact that Christ lives within us doesn’t change what kind of being he is. To be honest with you, not just our heavenly Father and Christ live within me but also many other people live within me too. Someone not even in your presence but who is having a direct impact on your thoughts and actions is doing so because they live within you. Even when someone dies they remain IN your heart, they live on within you.

    The anointed Jesus when he was on earth before he died he was a man but not an ordinary man, he had received the powers and all the fruits of God’s Spirit. When he rose from the dead he certainly was not ordinary between his eternal life and receiving the Spirit.

    There is ONE SPIRIT that is greater than all, the Spirit of our one God the Father YHVH. Through Christ we get to receive that Spirit that will cause us to walk in all His ways for all eternity.

    Danny, can I ask that you reflect on how Jesus was baptized and the Spirit came to abode upon him where we read in Isaiah 11 that he was promised to receive the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH and John tells us that he received the Spirit not by measure. With that Spirit Jesus speaks God’s word and he speaks prophecy. With that Spirit he was able to discern the spirits of others. With that Spirit Jesus performed all manner of signs and miracle and was able to heal and even raise the dead.

    Think about that before reading the below passage,

    1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. … 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 

    Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 37: 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    When Jesus Christ was on earth he drank of the One Spirit, he represented the fullness of the Spirit/the entire body of the Spirit. As He sits at God’s right hand as we speak, he also has within him the full body of the Spirit to which God designed the eternal man to have. At Pentecost people also drank of the Spirit but they received only parts of the body/a certain gift of the Spirit, but together they then were the one body of the Spirit, as also Christ is one body of the Spirit individually. Besides these gifts of powers of the Spirit we also see people have various levels of the fruits of God’s Spirit according to His character. For example some people are more gentle and kind than others, some people have better self control than others. When Christ returns we are promised to be made righteous, to drink from the same cup that Jesus drinks of where the Spirit of our Father will dwell in us causing us to walk in all His ways.  We too will not fail.

    Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    If one believes in the anointed Jesus that is Christ living in you.

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Our belief in Christ where he then can enter into our hearts is the work of our One God the Father. By our Father’s Spirit in us we are able to have faith and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    #869596
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    You gave Paul’s words, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME.

    I am going to pull up some scriptures as to what Paul additionally says that specifically apply to this passage, helping to give it understanding, and share those with you.

    Thanks for taking the time to ready my posts!

    #869597
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: The ascension that Jesus speaks about when he says that he will raise himself up on the third day, IMO,  is this one:

    John 20:17

    Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’

    ME: Lu, The ascension, which Jesus was referring to,  has nothing to do with His resurrection!

    In the above, Jesus after resurrected Himself, declared that

    HE WAS NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE FATHER!

    When Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene He meant that

    HE WAS NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE HIGHEST STATE AND GLORY OF HIS FATHER!

    When Jesus resurrected HE WAS EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL IN HIM.

    Jesus established the entire human race ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS IN HIM! 1Peter 1:3 declared by Jesus to Mary precisely ON HIS RESURRECTION and said:

    but go to MY BRETHREN…… ONLY IN THIS INSTANT Jesus Himself declared that

    HE IS OUR BROTHER, for the simple reason that

    Jesus gave His own dead body to the human race!

    Declared and predicted by Jesus’ own words in the last supper when he said:

    Eat this is my body which is GIVEN for you…..

    Jesus didn’t need it!

    ONCE HE GLORIFIED  HIS FLESH BODY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AND BECAME SPIRIT,

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST John13:31-32, John4:36,37, John17:1

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN mentioned by Jesus in

    John3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Jesus in the above referred to Himself when He said that

    UNLESS A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD! THIS MEANS THAT

    UNLESS HE RESURRECTS HE CANNOT ASCEND TO THE HIGHEST STATE AND GLORY OF GOD, THIS CONFIRMS THAT JESUS ON HIS RESURRECTION

    WAS NOT PERFECT, PRECISELY

    AN AUTHENTIC HUMAN BEING SINCE HE WAS EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE,

    by His own spirit ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD AND ALSO SINCE ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!   This means that Jesus after His resurrection,

    WAS STILL YET TO BE GLORIFIED,  TO ASCEND TO THE HIGHEST STATE OF GOD. Simply to be

    INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED ON JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS:

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    A TASK FULFILLED THAT SAME EVENING!

    This is also was represented in the cloth which covered Jesus’face which was found on its own neatly folded, which means IT’S NOT YET COMPLETE, FINISHED.

    Similarly to, when a person is dining and has the napkin folded next to him on the table, which means that dinner is not finished.

    The fact also that Jesus, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,  that same evening, after 6, the time HE INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, IN JESUS CHRIST;

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    entered into the room where His apostles were DESPITE LOCKED, THROUGH WALLS! 

    Jesus, THE MAN BORN AGAIN, with this unification into ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST IN

    JESUS CHRIST unified the entire human race with God in Christ; Well mentioned in

    1Peter 1:3 Blessed be THE GOD and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath

    REGENERATED US

    unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4Unto an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade,

    reserved in heaven for you,

     5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

    ALSO, JESUS CHRIST BY THIS UNIFICATION  became

    GOD OF ALL FLESH! Precisely 

    one earth Satan’s property!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #869598
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Back to my post, I feel I was not quite clear in my question, so I repeat again:

    Now here comes what I am aiming to:

    WHEN WAS JESUS, LAST DAY ONE EARTH? Obvious on the cross!No?

    My question is  WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED ON JESUS’DEATH SINCE

    HE RAISED HIMSELF UP? AS HE SAID IN JOHN6, ALSO 

    ON HIS LAST DAY, ON EARTH, ON HIS DEATH

    AND THROUGH HIS RISING UP, all those who believe in Him also

    would be raised up by Jesus. confirmed in

    John6: 40And this is the will of my Father that sent me:

    that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him,

    may have life everlasting, and

    I will raise him up in the last day.

    OBVIOUS: ON HIS DEATH ON EARTH!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869599
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    I certainly do not agree with you in that post, sorry.

    For instance:

    The “giving” of his body was figurative, not literal. No one really ate Jesus’ flesh or drank his blood. He uses bread and wine as objects to remind us of his bodily sacrifice for our sins.  Also, his body did not undergo decay because it was resurrected on the third day post crucifixion. On that same day, Jesus raised himself up to the Father after letting Mary see and touch him. That is when I believe Jesus “raised himself up.”

    A week or so after Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, this happened:

    Luke 24:39

    See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.”

    You can see that Jesus was in his body that he died in, albeit that it was glorified at the time Mary and Thomas saw him on the third day and later. Believers will be able to see the evidence of the wounds on his hands and his feet when they go to heaven and see him face to face.

    Blessings, LU

    #869600
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    You neglect this verse that tells when Jesus will raise himself up…

    John 2

    19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and yet You will raise it up in three days?” 21But He was speaking about the temple of His body. 22So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

    #869601
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: I would love to know why you think the “celestial messengers of God” were there PRIOR to the beginning of the creation period as opposed to being created DURING the creation period.

    ME: What a great question!

    Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    The above tells me that angels are present at this creation rather than having been created during it.

    Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    When we read of angels in the bible they follow God’s commandments and they are given some pretty tall tasks. It’s evident that God trusts in them. Jesus speaks of no longer being able to die any more for they are equal unto the angels. As they are called Sons of God and knowing that sin equals death, this tells me that they do not die because they are led by the Spirit of God in all His ways.

    LU, it is evident to me that for our one God the Father YHVH to bring forth a special kind of living creature that has the ability to come to know Him and come to exist eternally in His image, such is a process that takes time. As a thousand years to us is as one day to Him, the process that might seem to us to be taking forever, wouldn’t be true for Him. 6 days for Him (6,000 for us) and then comes the Sabbath rest that will be one day for Him (1,000 years for us with Christ).

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    To tie this into God’s celestial messengers, I have reason to believe that before our creation they also must of had a process that took time for them to become the Sons of God. They have been working with God from the beginning of our creation as His faithful servants, so it would make sense that they prior were made righteous and obtained eternal life.

     

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