John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,161 through 21,180 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866875
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi,

    I was also wondering if you accept my “children of Abraham from stones” analogy.  You didn’t try to rebut it, so I assume you acknowledge it as legit.  If God foretold that He would make a son for Abraham out of a stone, and then did so, no amount of scriptures talking about how this son would be/is/was a human son of Abraham would change the fact that he also preexisted that nature as a stone.   It is the same with Jesus.  This is all we’re saying to you.  We all agree that Jesus was foretold to come as a human, and then did exist on earth as a human.  But even a zillion scriptures about his existence as a human would not eliminate the many scriptures that speak about his existence before taking on human nature.

    Cheers.

    #866876
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …..you have to look at the over context of why Jesus said that, if you do you will see that they thought there link to  Abraham was more important then  Jesus was, the used that over and over to show their importance in life was by there relationship to Abraham,  that is why John the Baptist  also said to them,  “God could raise up these rocks to be childern to  Abraham”  .  It was a major stumbling block to those people preventing them from seeing the importance of Jesus in their lives, so Jesus being fustrated with them,  said  that he was more important  then Abraham was , by saying to them that he was before or more “important ” to them then Abraham.  He even went further and told them that Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus, which also shows Jesus was not even in existence at the time of Abraham.

    The word used there is also defined  in the Greek language, as a person ahead of in importance. As I recall.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #866877
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    nayasnana: It is important to note that it was “Christian teachers” who attached the idea of a “divine person” to the word logos. It is certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially.

    Welcome, nayasnana!

    This one makes it hard to deny that in some cases, the word “logos” clearly refers to a sentient being.

    Revelation 19

    12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.…

    The entirety of John 1 and the beginning of 1 John 1 makes it equally difficult.

    #866878
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    nayasnana: He (Jesus) is the “word” (God’s messenger.) I know Christ was with God from the beginning and I am researching this now. In the Scriptures, the meaning of the term “beginning” depends on the context. Here the Greek word ar·kheʹ cannot refer to “the beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must, therefore, refer to the time when God began creating. God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus. (Joh 1:14-17) So Jesus is the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col 1:15) He was “the beginning of the creation by God” (Re 3:14), so he existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created. In fact, by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.”​—(Col 1:16)…

    This appears as if it was copied and pasted from a JW.org publication.  I have no problem with the JWs, and actually interpret the scriptures much like they do in most cases.  I would add this scripture to the fine points made above…

    Micah 5:2

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Note that this clearly foretells Jesus.  Note also that he has “origins”, and that they are not “from eternity” – but from a long time ago.  This one verse makes it clear that Jesus isn’t God Almighty, but that he did in fact exist before he was born of Mary on earth.  Two birds with one stone. 😉

    #866879
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “He even went further and told them that Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus, which also shows Jesus was not even in existence at the time of Abraham.”

    Me

    wrong Gene
    the Son of GOD already existed, BUT not like the Son of man.

    It’s as simple as that.

     

    #866880
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Proclaimer…..the “only” way Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he were God, himself.

    JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word,  scripture does not say that,

    It says he is “called” the word of God,

    it does not say he “IS” the word of God.

    look up the meaning of the word “called” ,  it shows it as a “sur-name” ,  not to mention Jesus himself said this, 

     

    ME: Gene, I hope you ACCEPT SCRIPTURES NOT ONLY WHEN IT PLEASES YOU, BUT ALWAYS! READ HEREUNDER:

    Genesis 35:18 And when her soul was departing for pain, and death was now at hand,

    she called the name of her son Benoni, (is he BENONI?)

    that is, The son of my pain: but his father

    called him Benjamin, ( is he BENJAMIN?) 

    that is,The son of the right hand.

     

    ME: NOW TO:

    John 12:48…..He that rejects me and recieve not my words has one that judges him:

    the words that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him in the last day. 49,  For I have not spoken of (from) “MYSELF”; but the Father which sent me, “He” gave me commandment, what I should     “say”, and what I should “speak”. 

    Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? ,

    not to me ,

    that sounds like The man Jesus was telling us exactly what God the Father was telling him to say to us. 

     

    ME: Now Gene IN WHICH SCRIPTURE YOU READ :

    “the words (PLURAL) that I have spoken,”……

    IN ALL THE VERSIONS HEREUNDER IT IS SINGULAR, “THE WORD”

    KJV, ESV,BSB,NAS,NKJ,ASV 

    Now read

    DRB.version hereunder:

    John12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words,

    hath one that judgeth him;

    THE WORD (Jesus, the son of man)

    that I have spoken,

    CONFIRMED:

    John5:22 And he hath given him power

    to do judgment,

    because he is the Son of man.

     

    Now answer Gene, Does that sound like Jesus was saying he “himself” was God’s word? 

    I’M AFRAID HE DOES Gene:

    JESUS CALLED HIMSELF 

    THE SPOKEN WORD OF GOD ITSELF, THE LOGOS,  

    THE WORD OF GOD

    Since He shall judge all men in the last day.

     

    #866881
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….I completely agree with your last post to Proclaimer.  But now back to your post to me,  your are right the subject matter did not change until version 18,  but verse is still talking about God and his word, not God and  Jesus being his word.

    Gene, we agree that the subject remains the same until verse 18.  And that means the subject “became flesh“, “dwelled among us on earth“, “had a glory of the only begotten son from the Father“, and had the following words said about him by John the Baptizer: This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ ”

    Can any of those things be said about “God and his word“, like you said?  If not – and you agree that the subject didn’t change from vs 14 to vs 18 – then you really have no argument, and therefore no reason to not understand that John was talking about Jesus the entire time, sometimes calling him “the Word”, other times “the Light”, and other times “only begotten Son of God” and “Jesus”.

     

    #866882
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  …so Jesus being fustrated with them,  said  that he was more important  then Abraham was , by saying to them that he was before or more “important ” to them then Abraham.

    It is true that saying you are “before” another can be a way of giving yourself more importance than them.  But look at the context, Gene…

    John 8

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was, I was!”

    So it’s easy to see that Jesus was answering their argument concerning his AGE – not his “importance” as compared to Abraham’s.  Their claim was about his AGE, and his response therefore naturally addressed that claim about his AGE.

    #866883
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer:  But you need honest people in the process to make that happen.

    Unfortunately there are people here who are not honest.

    They cannot answer a simple yes or no.

    Thus, their answers must be coming from the Evil One.

    Mike: Please stop these personal attacks.

    Sorry Mike, but I am merely quoting scripture like you do sometimes. It’s what happens in these forums.

    Did I call anyone a moron or ugly or other such insult?

    What is it about my statement that is wrong exactly?

    Did I even mention who I am applying this too in my statement?

    If not, then how do you know who I am talking about. Could it be that you see as I do regarding that?

    So should we just pretend this isn’t happening because of political correctness?

    And finally, is this scripture wrong?

    All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

    Some things for you to ponder Mike.

    Challenging people with scripture is not hate Mike. It is truth.

    Some people think truth is hate speech because they hate the truth.

    So who is it that hates? The one that loves truth or hates it?

    I believe your analysis on this has been proven wrong.

    #866884
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who was the first to be with God?

    If Jesus is the Word become flesh and if he wasn’t the one who was with God before the cosmos, then please reveal to me the identity of the very special person who was first to be with God?

    Somebody had to be first right? Was it Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh? Was it Michael the archangel? Was it a man called Bruce?

    If you do not know, then how do you know for sure it wasn’t Jesus before he came down from Heaven?

    Even this one small point destroys the argument that assumes that the only begotten of the Father wasn’t the first born of all creation.

    So you see, we do not even need all the scriptures that explicitly state that he was the first. But when you consider those scriptures, well that ends the argument.

    #866885
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: she called the name of her son Benoni, (is he BENONI?)

    You can’t argue Carmel’s point here, Gene.  I’ll add some more scriptures to his point…

     

    Luke 2:21 And when eight days were fulfilled to circumcise the child, then his name was called
    Jesus, having been so called by the messenger before his being conceived…

    Genesis 38:29 And she said, “What a breach you have made for yourself!” Therefore his name was
    called Perez… 

    Genesis 38:30 Afterward his brother came out with the scarlet thread on his hand, and his name was called Zerah…

     Genesis 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray you, with that same red pottage;
    for I am faint: therefore his name was called Edom…

     Genesis 25:26 Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau’s heel, so his name was called Jacob…
     

    Judges 8:31 And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech… 

    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon
    his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God…
     

    Genesis 35:10 And God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name.” 

    #866896
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I am not arguing that a name cannot be applied to someone or anything for that matter,  because of some kind of “atribute ”  Satan is called a snake, but is he “really” a snake.  Jacobs name was changed to Israel, why? Because he prevailed with God.  So atributes can be applied to any thing,  as I already explained ,  Jesus spoke to us the words of God,  so he certanly could be “called”,  or sur-named the word of God , I have no problem with that.  But trying to link that with some form of preexting existence, like John 1:1 , is pure garbage. 

    As I explained sur-names were  given to man deciples, James and John , the Son of Thunder, Peter a rock or stone, we’re they really Sons of Thunder, or was Peter really a stone or rock? I doubt it, but  Did they have some kind of  “atribute” of those things,  yes I believe they did.

    As I said if what they are saying was John’s intention in saying what he said,  then why would he say it that way?  Was John so ignorant that he would not have said ,  in the beginning was Jesus, who is God’s word, and was with God and was God?  because is that not what you people are saying?  Some here say Jesus was God , because it says the word was God, so if your going to apply the first part of the word being Jesus then you must  also apply the last part also, then Jesus is your God. .  

    Fact is John was talking about God the Father who is Spirit and he mover on the face of this earth and he said the words let the be, and brought it all about himself. Jesus was not there, not even in existence, till he was born on this earth . “for unto us a child is born, unto us a Son has been given”.  The “us” mentioned there is mankind.  Notice it dosen’t say a  son has been “morphed” into a child from another “existence” ,  and been born unto us, does it? 

    Please give John enough sense to say exactly and clearly what he meant, and stop forcing  texts to say or mean what they do not say or mean.  Espically when they are in counterdiction with so many other scriptures.

    Mike,  Paul said the Berean’s  searched  the scripture to see if what they were hearing was true or not,  now my question to you is what scriptures was he referring to?  It could not be the newtestimate, it hadn’t been written yet?  SO he was speaking of the OLD TESTAMENT, right?

    So what ever people say does not match up with the old testament , it is simply not true. And when God said he and he “alone” and by “himself”, created every thing, you should automatically , Jesus didn’t and he couldn’t have been there either,  because it say he did it “alone”, and by “himself”.  You can find that written CLEARLY in OUR OLD TESTEMENT,  SCRIPTURES.

    SO if what people say dosen’t match up to what the old Testement says I question it very seriously.  Because I believe what Paul said still applies today?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

     

    #866897
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Mike you have no scripture that says

    Jesus was there

    at any time of creation at all. 

    If it exists please post it.

     

    ME: Gene let me hear your comments regarding the scripture hereunder:

    IF I WERE YOU I PASS IT TO Jodi SHE IS LESS CARNAL MINDED THEN YOU ARE, WITH EVERY RESPECT

     

    Isaiah 48:15 I, even I (GOD ALMIGHTY) have SPOKEN (AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST) and called him: ( WHO and WHAT IS HE CALLED OR as you prefer NAMED BY GOD?)

    I have brought him, and his way is made prosperous. ( WHO WAS BROUGHT and HIS WAY, DEFINITELY IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION, IS MADE PROSPEROUS?)

    16Come ye near UNTO ME  and hear this: (Gene, WHO IS SPEAKING NOW?)

    I have not SPOKEN (AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST) in secret from THE BEGINNING: (definitely of creation)

    from the time before it was done,(CREATION)

    I was there,( WHO IS “I” Gene?)

    and now the Lord God (ALMIGHTY)

    hath sent me,( WHO WAS SENT Gene? AN ACTION COMMENCED IN THE PAST, from the beginning, NOT AT THE RIVER JORDAN and OUT INTO THE WORLD, like Jody’s CARNAL MINDED INTELLIGENCE.)

    and his spirit.( WHO IS THIS SPIRIT THAT WAS SENT TOGETHER WITH WHO CALL HIMSELF “I”?)

    17Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:( WHO IS HIM?)

    I am the Lord THY GOD ( WHO IS HIM ?)

    that teach thee profitable things, that govern thee in the way that thou walkest. ( WHO TEACH THESE  THINGS OBVIOUS SPIRITUAL?)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866899
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Was John so ignorant that he would not have said ,

     in the beginning was Jesus, who is God’s word, and was with God and was God?

    Gene, your above reasoning confirms YOUR CARNAL MINDED STATE!

    John was a UNIQUE SPIRITUAL WRITER TAUGHT BY JESUS HIMSELF and as a spiritual gospel it must be mysterious and only revealed precisely by the Holy Spirit the source and author of God’s own “WORD”.Well asserted precisely by Jesus in

    John 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself;

    but what things soever he shall hear,(IN RELATION TO ME AND MY WORK) he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

    14He shall glorify me;

    because he shall receive of mine, ( GLORY AS GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE, John 17:2, John 20:17, 1 John 5:20, Ephesians 4:6, Isaiah 9:6)and shall shew it to you.

    15 All things whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    All scripture is written not to be literally understood since it is GOD’S SPIRITUAL MESSAGE especially  John’s gospel.

    Just reflect if John had written that verse according to your discretion, which would have been the only verse in the entire scripture, proclaiming in black on white JESUS IS GOD, 

    what would have happened not to the gospel itself, but to Christianity and to the church itself.

    It is the fact that Jesus is proclaimed

    GODMAN ON EARTH BY JOHN IN THAT MANNER IN ALL HIS WRITING

    THAT CHRISTIANITY GREW THE BIGGEST RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY

    DESPITE THE VARIOUS UNDERSTANDING OF

    WHO JESUS WAS!

    Pinpointed out in

    Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.

    Humans would be judged according to what they believe.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866900
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….I am not arguing that a name cannot be applied to someone or anything for that matter,  because of some kind of “atribute ”…  Jesus spoke to us the words of God,  so he certanly could be “called”,  or sur-named the word of God , I have no problem with that. 

    Okay Gene, so then just admit that to Carmel, instead of trying to play semantics games.  Jesus’s “name is called the Word of God” is equivalent to Jesus BEING IDENTIFIED AS “the Word of God”.  Ie: Jesus IS “the Word of God” – just like Peter IS the person known as “Rock”.  Understand?

    Who is “Rock”?  Well, Peter of course.

    Who is “the Word of God”?  Well, Jesus of course.

    So if John wrote, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God“, rational people would understand that it was the PERSON who has the nickname “Rock” that John was talking about.  A rational person wouldn’t go out of their way to claim that “being strong like a rock” is one of God’s attributes, and that “strength attribute” is what was with God in the beginning.  It’s the same with “the Word” being with God in the beginning.  You are free to claim that this refers to various literal words that God spoke being “with Him” in the beginning, but rational people realize that Jesus IS “the Word”, and that John 1:1 is about Jesus being with God in the beginning, and John 1:14 is about the time when Jesus became flesh and dwelled on earth.

    At the very least, stop playing semantics games with Carmel over this point, because you’ve just admitted that he was right.

    #866901
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel. …..Man you are so far out there in delusion, you make anything out of scriptures you want to m even though it is not stated like that , nor even intended to be taken that way.  No one can take what you are saying seriously Carmel, you seem to have long given yourself over to all the deceptions m in modern CHRISTANITY.

    My hope for you is that you will come out of all that someday.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #866902
    Jodi
    Participant

    Mike,

    ALL of scripture must agree, I do not see that at all with your doctrine, nor with the doctrine of others. If you don’t apply clear given truths to certain passages you are going to understand them incorrectly, which is exactly what you and others do with verse 58 of John 8.

    Below shows how all the words of YHVH does indeed AGREE,

    In John 8, Jesus identifies himself as to who he is when he says “I AM” even BEFORE verse 58!

    It doesn’t seem like you or others pay mind to this at all.

    John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Jesus identifies himself in these passages exactly according to the MAN according to prophecy that was promised to come into the world, upon an anointing. Jesus identifies himself in these passages as the prophet to whom YHVH would raise up from among his brethren and put His words into His mouth, and for those who listened it brought them out of darkness and into the light.

    Below we read YVHV speaking of the son of Jesse, and Jesus in John 8 is identifying himself as this son,

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…..5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..

    Below we read YHVH speaking of one raised up among brethren, and Jesus in John 8 is telling you that is who he is,

    Deut 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Mike, the son of Jesse did not create the heavens and the earth, YHVH did, go read Isaiah 44 and 45, as Gene said, YHVH created all things He says ALONE, BY HIMSELF. Not only when you read of this declaration YHVH as our sole Creator, doing so by His wisdom and power, you likewise read within the same chapters YHVH’s purpose and plan concerning His creation. He made the people and there is ONE CHOSEN, ONE whom YHVH sets apart from the people to give him of His glory who would be for a light.

    THEN in ISAIAH 46 you even read that this man being this light executing YHVH’s purpose for His creation was SPOKEN by YHVH since the beginning.

    Below we read YHVH speaking of one who YHVH makes into His firstborn, higher than all kings, and Jesus in John 8 is telling you that is who he is this man of prophecy,

    Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 

    David prophesied, and he rejoiced, as his son would be a light and a savior. David knew YHVH was going to set his son before all, that his son would be his own lord, a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    Not only did David know this, but Abraham knew it as well of his seed also. Abraham saw his own seed before him, a lord over him, and Abraham rejoiced.

    AND THE CLEAR TRUTH, before Abraham even existed his own seed was declared from the beginning a lord of lords and a king of kings, he was declared that he would be be made into YHVH’s firstborn overall of creation. Jesus declares that such is he.

    Which brings us to,

    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    How confused are they? Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw him. YHVH had told Abraham that of his seed all nations would be blessed. Before Abraham even existed this was marked out by YHVH, before Abraham even existed YHVH’s word was that this seed of Abraham was promised to receive FIRST PLACE in all things, be not just a firstborn overall creation, but be a king of kings and a lord of lords over all for eternity, where he sits upon his throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    JESUS was telling them that is who he was, “I AM” he. 

    #866903
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…… You playing semantics here not me,   I have shown you all here how scripture says in the beginning “God Said” , it does not say JESUS SAID, now does it?  So who’s word was spoken in the beginning?, God’s word and who was those words that were spoken. ,  GOD’S WORDS.  

    Playing word games is saying John meant something else then what he actually said, now that’s word games.   Then if you believe that the word mentioned there is Jesus, then you have to also believe Jesus is God, because it says that also.  But Jesus said this,  “that they might know “you” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”, BUT wait John says (according to your way of thinking) , The word “Jesus”, ” is God”.  But Jesus says there is “only” one true God”.  

    These aren’t word games they are what scriptures actually say.  Your still not getting the point, something being “called” something does not actually make you that something you are call , no, Peter is not a Rock,  nor is the Son of Thunder , actually sons of Thunder, nor is Jesus “himself” actually the word of God “himself” even though he carries the “sur-name” of the word of God.

    We could say the same thing about all the prophets also did not God speak his word through them?, and in the “same” way spoke through Jesus who was a Prophet also.  Jesus knew and even said those words were not from himself  but we’re the words given him to say to us,  by God the Father.

    Jesus is the mediator between God and us, and as all mediators do he tell us th words of him who sends them, and those words are not their  words  they are speaking,  but the words of  them who sent him,  or haven’t you ever read,  “but unto us there is but “ONE” GOD,   and ONE mediator between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”. 

    Maybe you not following what theses people are saying, they are not saying Jesus speaks God words to us , what they are saying is that The man Jesus “IS” “himself” God’s word. As I have said that’s like saying Peter is a “actual” rock, like you would find at a rock query some where.  Again I say,  having an “atribute” is not the same thing as being the atribute it self. Jesus has the “atribute” of the word of God,   because he “quotes” the Fathers words to us, but none of that actually make him the Father or his word himself , and this is not a word game, it’s the truth.

    We all will be given new names, even Jesus , but will that change who we are? While it might bring out a characteristic we “have”, but it will not change who we are?  IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #866904
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    So NO, absolutely NOT was Jesus telling people that he existed before Abraham. 

    In John 8 Jesus reveals who he is, all according to prophecy, all according to YHVH’s word since the beginning, before the world even was, LONG BEFORE Abraham even was.

    From the beginning Jesus was marked out TO BE eternally a king of kings and a lord of lords, to be made BEFORE ALL THINGS, have first place in everything, promised to be made a king higher than all kings.

    Even when Jesus was raised from the dead, he taught of himself AND HIS GLORY that he entered, according to prophecy, 

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them,O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Mike what is Jesus’s GLORY according to prophecy? Go read 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 8 and 89, Isaiah 11 and 53, as a starting point to find out.

    and then know this, such glory was FROM GOD for Jesus of Nazareth since the beginning.

    moreover,

    Jesus KNEW YHVH’s WORD and his own glory that was within that word, and Jesus KNEW that word of his glory was for him from YHVH since the beginning. 

    #866905
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Right on!

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

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