John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,181 through 21,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866906
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    As said, ALL OF SCRIPTURE must agree. 

    So let’s talk about, 1 Cor 15: 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    This is what I know from direct scripture,

    Jesus was raised incorruptible, in power, in glory, and he appeared to many where he said directly that he was not a spirit, but made of FLESH and BONES. We are told that he is going to sit upon a throne and rule according to the flesh. We are told that ALL FLESH is going to come and worship YHVH. We are told that we are joint heirs with Christ, his resurrection is our resurrection. He rose from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit and in Ezekiel 36 we rise from the dead where we are given a new heart of flesh and YHVH puts His Spirit upon us causing us to walk in all of YHVH’s ways, just as Jesus does.  

    Jesus said he was flesh and bones, not flesh and blood.

    Jesus also said,

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    Therefore it is not by man, it is not by flesh and blood that can produce righteousness that brings us into eternal life.Flesh and blood has no power, to be carnally minded is death.  Flesh and blood cannot cause us to inherit the kingdom of God. God’s Spirit, not flesh and blood, brings forth righteousness and life. 

    Those are the two things I know, Jesus was raised he said being flesh and bones, he did not say flesh and blood. Likewise Jesus and Paul teach us that flesh and blood does not have power to bring us into the kingdom, only YHVH’s Spirit can do that. 

    Let’s not forget also,

    Jesus is the Son of Man (anthropos/HUMAN) who sits at YHVH’s right hand, and it is this Son of a HUMAN who is returning to sit on a throne according to flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit that he had received as was promised when he rose from the dead. 

    and also,

    YHVH made humans in His own image you are told, He said He made the earth not in vain but for it to be inhabited. Paul tells us also in 1 Corinthians 15 that God made each creature with it’s own flesh and for it to have it’s own glory. The Son of a HUMAN sits at YHVH’s right hand existing in the express image of YHVH, he is a firstborn of many brethren.

    YHVH’s purpose for mankind from the beginning was for Him to become ALL in ALL, all of humankind living in His image having His Spirit upon them being caused to walk in all of His ways.  

    #866907
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    REVELATION 19:13
    And he was clothed with a garment soaked in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Jodi
    Do you believe what revelation 19:13 says
    YES OR NO

    ME: YES of course,

    I have been posting on that scripture and what it means lately, I guess you have not seen those posts

    Berean, I believe ALL scripture, and know that ALL scripture is to be applied TOGETHER to have proper understanding.

    #866908
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You don’t Say the TRUTH.

    JESUS IS the ONE WHO IS CALLED

    THE WORD

    #866909
    Berean
    Participant

    AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD

    AND THE WORD  WAS GOD

    THIS THE TRUTH

    ALLELOUIA

    AMEN

    LET EVERYBODY KNOW THAT THIS IS THE TRUTH …. GLORIOUS TRUTH

    #866911
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean,   You are conpletely wrong, Jodi is speaking  the apsolute truth,  Satan’s “mystery religion”,  has you completely fooled., and you don’t even realize it, “sad brother”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    #866912
    Berean
    Participant

    NO GENE

    YOU AND JODI ARE OUT THE WAY

    YET YOU HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEIZE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHO REALLY IS JESUS.
    BUT GOD IS LOVE AND HE PATIENTS WITH YOU AS WITH ALL …

    #866913
    Berean
    Participant

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    You don’t have to read the whole bible to understand this.

    #866915
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    This is what I know, 

    Jesus’s name means “YHVH is salvation” and such is the word of God that we are told, that YHVH is indeed our salvation.

    Psalms 119:37 Turn my eyes away from worthless things; preserve my life according to your word. 38 Fulfill your promise to your servant, so that you may be feared. 39 Take away the disgrace I dread, for your laws are good. 40 How I long for your precepts! In your righteousness preserve my life. 41 May your unfailing love come to me, LORD, your salvation, according to your promise; 42 then I can answer anyone who taunts me, for I trust in your word. 43 Never take your word of truth from my mouth, for I have put my hope in your laws.

    Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to HIS PROMISE raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, HEAR THESE WORDS; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 

    The word of God is that YHVH is our salvation, and He saves us through His anointing Spirit resting upon a man who is obedient unto shedding his blood on the cross through that eternal Spirit that is upon him. That man’s name is Jesus which just so happens to mean “YHVH is salvation” which just so happens to be also the words of God spoken unto us throughout the bible.

    Now in Rev 1 we read,

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    In chapter 19 we are told,

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name WRITTEN, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is CALLED The Word of God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name WRITTEN, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Upon closer review,

    Though Jesus’ own name is the Word of God spoken to us throughout the bible, “YHVH is salvation”, we likewise know that the Word of God revealed in scripture is that Jesus was to be made a king of kings and a lord of lords, and such is a name written given unto him

    In Rev chapter 1 we read of Jesus Christ as the first begotten of the dead, a king over kings of the earth who had shed his blood for us, where by him others are made kings and priests.

    Then in chapter 19 verse 12- 13 and 16, it’s no coincidence that we read similar, on his head many crowns and he has “a name written”, he who has a vesture dipped in blood, “his name is called The Word of God”, and that word is he is a king of kings and a lord of lords, which we see in verse 16 “a name written” is “king of kings and lord of lords.” 

    His name is CALLED the word of God, and that name WRITTEN, that is indeed the word of God, is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!

    #866916
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    If You believe THAT” THE WORD” or “THE WORD OF GOD” IS ONE OF THE NAME or TITLE OF JESUS IN THE BIGINNING….YOU WILL BELEIVE THAT JESUS WAS(IN THE BIGINNING) WITH THE GOD AND WAS GOD.

    WITHOUT THAT , THERE IS NO SAVIOR FOR THE WORLD

    THIS IS THE FIRST CONDITION:
    THE DIVINE SON OF GOD OFFERS HIMSELF IN SACRIFICE TO HIS FATHER FOR THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD.

    #866917
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    To condense my post from above,

    Rev 1: 5-6 tells us that Jesus Christ who shed his blood is a first begotten of the dead, made a king over kings of the earth, where through him many crowns are given to his faithful.

    Then in Revelation 19:12-13 and 16 we are told,

    This first begotten of the dead who shed his blood and where there are many crowns on his head, a name was written for him, that name is called the word of God, and that name that is written that is called the word of God, is “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS”. 

    This name written is called the word of God, as we indeed do read that God had promised unto David’s son not only that he would be made into YHVH’s firstborn but also that he would be made a king of kings.

    Psalm 89:4 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

    We read of this given mercy unto David’s son promised to never be taken away, as well as a promise of an eternal throne in 1 Chronicles 17. We also read of this Son of Man in Psalm 8 receiving dominion overall that YHVH had made. We likewise know that the covenant spoken in Psalm 89, is him shedding his blood to set us free which is spoken of in Isaiah 53, where we additionally read that this man receives a portion among the great and is ordained to divide the spoil with the mighty.

     The word of God is a WRITTEN NAME, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

     

     

    #866918
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    There was NO savior that had come, until after John was preaching of baptism. 

    Our savior came ACCORDING TO A PROMISE made unto the seed of David. 

    By the eternal Spirit that came upon Jesus he shed his blood in obedience, and by such we are saved. 

    The WORD of God from the beginning was a man who would shed his blood, a man that would execute God’s council, His covenant of salvation unto eternal life. 

    The WORD of God from the beginning was eternal life.

    Berean, the truth clearly given unto you is that in the beginning was God’s WORD of eternal life and God’s WORD that a man would come and be for a light, be a savior bringing forth the word of eternal life.

    Berean, the WORD is eternal life, which was with the Father from the beginning and is the Father, for His Spirit is LIFE because of righteousness. 

    That Spirit came upon Jesus and what happened, he was obedient unto death, and because of that obedience through the Spirit, God could not hold him to the penalty of death, he deserved to be raised from the dead and be given the Spirit for all eternity, the Spirit that is LIFE because of righteousness.

    Jesus is proof that God’s Spirit truly brings LIFE because it causes righteousness, the very reason why we are raised promised to receive that Spirit and have God cause us to walk in all of His ways, be a joint heir with Christ, be an heir likewise of God’s Spirit.

    For those we are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, and we are to be made into the image of the Son, who was to be a firstborn of many Sons. That Son’s origin is of the seed of David, and he is God’s Son ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT by his resurrection from the dead, where he had received that Spirit as was promised when he rose from the dead. 

     

    #866919
    Berean
    Participant

    You do not BELEIVE thé TRUTH but a LIE.

    A MERE MAN CANNOT SAVE THE WORLD.

    THE DIVIN SON OF GOD HAS PERMISSION If the FATHER.

    #866920
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I believe EXACTLY what scripture says, not your doctrine that is the actual lie, which has been concocted from misinterpreting scriptures, which those misinterpretations come from you ignoring and not apply clear given truths from other passages.

    I give you scripture to apply to the ones you misinterpret to show how they are to be properly understood, but you just outright don’t want to discuss those scriptures, nor my point that comes through applying them to the ones you misinterpret. Time and time again you divert to just bring up a different scripture you misinterpret.

     

    #866921
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Of course a mere man cannot save the world, ONLY our ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER YHVH can save the world, and HE did so through the seed of David. 

    #866922
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

     

    Proverbs 8:22

    The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

    as you well said:

    YOU: Not only when you read of this declaration YHVH as our sole Creator, doing so by

    His wisdom and power, 

     

    WAS GOD ALL ALONE IN

    THE VERY CARNAL SENSE OF THIS WORLD?

    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad

    YOU: How confused are they? Jesus didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw him.

    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad

    Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre

    as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day.

    Answer Jodi: WHO SAW WHO?

    2And when he had lifted up his eyes,

    there appeared to him THREE MEN standing near him:

    and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground.

    Answer Jodi: WHO SAW WHO?

    3And he said: LORD, (THEY WERE THREE, NOT ONE)

    if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant:

    4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant.

    And they said: (ALL THREE)

    Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sera, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man: who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree. 9And when they had eaten,

    they said to him:(ALL THREE AGAIN)

    Where is Sara thy wife? He answered:

    Lo, she is in the tent.

    10And he said to him:( THIS TIME ONLY ONE SPEAKS)

    I will return and come to thee at this time,

    life accompanying and Sara thy wife shall have a son.( THAT WOULD BE THE DAY BOTH FOR THE LORD AND FOR ABRAHAM)

    Which when Sara heard, she laughed behind the door of the tent.

    11Now they were both old, and far advanced in years,

    and it had ceased to be with Sara after the manner of women.

    12And she laughed secretly, saying:

    After I am grown old, and my lord is an old man, (BOTH OF NO USE REGARDING SEX PLEASURE) shall I give myself to pleasure?

    13And the Lord said to Abraham: Why did Sera laugh, saying: Shall I who am an old woman bear a child indeed ? 14Is there any thing hard to God? according to appointment I will return to thee at this same time, life accompanying, and Sara shall have a son.

    Jodi, THE LORD NEVER CAME PHYSICALLY AGAIN AS HE DID, EXCEPT 

    ON THE DAY WHEN HE WAS BORN EMBODIED IN ISAAC.

    AND FOR SURE ABRAHAM SAW AGAIN THE LORD JESUS DAY AND 

    HE WAS MORE THEN GLAD.

    Genesis 21:1 And the Lord visited Sara,(NOT ABRAHAM)

    as he had promised: ( HOW???)

    and fulfilled what he had spoken.( HIS OWN WORD SPIRIT)

     2And she conceived and bore a son in her old (USELESS) age, ( WITHOUT SEX ALL AT ONE MOMENT)

    at the time that God had foretold her. ( A YEAR AFTER)

    6 And Sara said:

    God hath made a laughter for me:

    whosoever shall hear of it (HOW SHE BORE A SON) will laugh with me.

    7And again she said: Who would believe that Abraham should hear that Sara gave suck to a son, whom she bore to him in

    his (USELESS) old age.

    8And the child grew and was weaned:

    and Abraham made a great feast on the day of his weaning.

    WAS ABRAHAM GLAD Jodi?

    being the father of

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,

    THE FATHER OF ALL NATIONS AS GOD HAD PROMISED HIM

    EMBODIED IN ISAAC, to maintain 

    HIS PRIMACY:

    THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT? 

    MORE THE SON OF GOD THEN THE SON OF ABRAHAM, BY WHICH ABRAHAM BECAME

    THE FRIEND OF GOD!

    YOU: YHVH’s word was that this seed of Abraham was promised to receive FIRST PLACE in all things,

    THE ABOVE Jodi is a

    PURE LIE

    never mind Jodi,

    KEEP SILENCE 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866924
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Word became flesh.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    His name is the Word of God.

    And yes, he is the seed of David.

    True understanding of all this sees no contradiction.

    A person who pits one scripture against another is not seeing the truth because both were inspired by the almighty God.

    #866928
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    Gene and Jodi are playing semantics.

    You say he is, and I say he isn’t; period!
    But Gene and Jodi want it both ways.

    He isn’t the word of God but his name is called the word of God ???

    Fence walkers

    #866929
    Ed J
    Participant

    Isaiah has a rather lengthy list, but unfortunately:
    “The Word” isn’t on the list of His name being called…

    (Isaiah 9:6) “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
    and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
    and his name shall be called:

    1 Wonderful,
    2 Counsellor,
    3 The mighty God,
    4 The everlasting Father,
    5 The Prince of Peace.

    Would you claim God forgot to put “The Word” on the list ???

    that is because “The Word” is God’s HolySpirit

    words are spirit… “the Word” is “The Spirit”

    Period!

    #866934
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He is also the Truth and the Life.

    Did God forget that too?

    Or here’s an idea. Could it be that God didn’t mention all his names in that particular verse?

    Hmm.

    #866950
    Ed J
    Participant

    He is also the Truth and the Life.

    Did God forget that too?

    Or here’s an idea. Could it be that God didn’t mention all his names in that particular verse?

    Hmm.

    Hi T8,

    Thank you for your honest answer!

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