John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,141 through 21,160 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866853
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..What you are pointing out is wrong it alway was wrong and still is wrong. Yes he is “Called” the word of God. That is a sur-name or “title” ,given him because he does speek “God the Fathers words to us” not “his” words. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #866854
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    You

    Proclaim… .. the “only” way that Jesus himself could be the “word” of God “himself” is if he was God himself. JESUS IS NOT “NAMED” the Word, the Scripture doesn’t say that, It says he is “called” the word of God, it doesn’t say that he “IS” the word of God.

    Me

    The fact that Jesus is called THE WORD OF GOD clearly shows us that he WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN AND THAT HE WAS GOD

    Amen

    #866855
    Berean
    Participant

    JESUS IS NAMMED ” THE WORD,”

    IN JOHN 1:1 AND “THE WORD OF GOD”I INREVELATION 19:13

                   THIS THE TRUTH 

    THE ETERNAL AND INDESTRUCTIBL   TRUTH

    #866856
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.(Hebrews 13:8)

     

    #866857
    Ed J
    Participant

    It says he is “called” the word of God

    Where does it say that Gene?
    Because I never seen it ???

    EDJ…..REV 19:13, …..and he was clothed with a vesture, dipped in blood: and his name is ““CALLED” , “The word of God”.

    Hi Gene,

    That is talking about the HolySpirit, not Jesus.

    #866858
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now look up the words given there for “called”  it will tell you it is a “sur-name” ,  or Title,  like when Jesus said to Simon Bar-jona,  you shall be “called” Peter , that word means a Stone or Rock,  was Peter a stone or rock, no he was not , but that name was an “atribute” afforded him, because of some atribute he posessed, the same thing applied to James and John, he called them the “Son’s of Thunder”,  did that make them really sons of THUNDER, what ever that would be?, NO IT WOULD NOT.

    So he is Peter.

    Jesus is called the Word of God.

    So he is the Word of God.

    I have a name here called “Procalimer”. So I am Proclaimer.

    See how basic this reality is. Do not let puffed up wisdom blind you from what even a child can see.

    #866859
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Neither was he an anointed one yet either.

     

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and

    he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,

    even from his mother’s womb.

     

    John 1:27 The same is he that shall come after me,

    who is preferred before me:

    the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose. 

    John 1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man,

    who is preferred before me:(BEFORE MY EXISTENCE)

    because he was before me.(BEFORE MY EXISTENCE)

     

    Matthew 3:14 But John stayed him, saying:

    I ought to be baptized by thee,

    and comest thou to me?

    Luke7:26 This is he of whom it is written:

    Behold I send MY ANGEL before THY FACE,(JOHN PRE-EXISTED)

    who shall prepare THY WAY before THEE.

    28For I say to you: Amongst those that are born of women,

    there is not a greater prophet

    than John the Baptist.

    But he that is the lesser in the kingdom of God,

    is greater than he.

    Jodi from the above scriptures, IT IS ASSERTED THAT

    JOHN IS THE PERSONAL ANGEL OF GOD (MICHAEL), THE GREATEST PROPHET, EXISTED AFTER JESUS, WAS CONCEIVED AND FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, NEVERTHELESS,

    JOHN WAS LESS THEN JESUS, and

    OUGHT TO BE BAPTIZED ALSO BY JESUS.

    THAT MEANS Jodi that WITHOUT THE LEAST DOUBT,

    IF JOHN PRE-EXISTED, AND HAVE ALL THOSE CREDENTIALS IS

    FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON HIS CONCEPTION IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB AND STILL 

    LESS THEN JESUS,

    IT PROVES AND ASSERTS THAT 

    JESUS, 

    BOTH PRE-EXISTED AND 

    ALSO FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST,

    ON HIS CONCEPTION  IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

    WHAT OCCURRED AT THE RIVER JORAN WAS ONLY

    A MANIFESTATION IN ISRAEL OF

    WHO JESUS WAS AND THAT JESUS WAS

    THE SON OF GOD.

    By which title it confirms that Jesus is

    THE GENUINE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER, Hebrews1:3 and as much as the Father is the source of the Holy Ghost, likwise

    JESUS IS ALSO

    THE ABODE OF THE HOLY GHOST

    Confirmed in

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,

    MY SOUL(THE HOLY GHOST)

      delighteth in him:(JESUS)

    I have given (PRE-EXISTED)

    my spirit upon him,( BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #866862
    Berean
    Participant

    GOD GAVE HIS OWN SON NOT SIMPLY À SON LIKE GENE SAY BELOW:

    God, who at Sunday times and in different manners spake in times past unto the fathers by (through)  the prophets, has in theses last days spoken unto us by (through) a Son, who he appointed heir of all things,  by (for the purpose of) whom also he (God) made the worlds;

     

    Even if there is no article Before the word “son” in this passage
    We know this is God’s own Son (Romaind 8: 3; John3:16)

    #866863
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..”call no man on earth your Father,  for one is your Father who is in heaven”.  When are you people going START to truly believe What Jesus said? 

    WHY do you continue to do the work of Satan, by never ceasing to make Jesus out to be  different then his human brothers and sisters. Preaching Satan’s , “doctrines of Seperation”?  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #866864
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……yea, and Clark Kent , was a real “superman” to, because they “called” him that?,  and an airplane is a “real” bird , because they call it that, and a ship is a women because they “call” it a she.  Sur-names are given to many things and people also, that are not “actually” it , but invoke a “characteristic” or “atribute” of it.  Jesus spoke every thing God the Father told him to tell us, so he is “sur-named, or “called” the word of God,  but none of that ever “actually” made he himself God the Fathers word himself?  If you truly believed What Jesus himself said as you would like us to believe you do, you would understand that. IMO

    Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks God the Fathers words, to us, NOT,  BECAUSE HE IS “ACTUALLY” THOSE WORDS HIMSELF.

    GET IT?

    You give yourself a title as the “Proclaimer”,   right, so how does that make you “any” different then anyone else here,  are you still 100% a flesh and blood human, tell us in what way are you any different then the rest of humanity?  To me you are nothing  more then another human being, even though you afforded yourself the “title” as the “proclainer”,  what happened to T8, did he die?

    The king and Queen of England, are they not the exact same as the rest of humanity?, does the “title” actually make them no longer human beings.  This is what you false teachers have Done with Jesus, because you want to do exactly what Satan wants , make Jesus appear “completely” different then his brothers and sister,  so you preach your false teaching . 2THS2,  it’s all there for them who have eyes to see?  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #866865
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are sinking deeper and deeper into spiritual darkness.

    JESUS IS ACCORDING TO ROMANS 8: 3 THE OWN SON OF GOD, THIS MEANS THAT HE IS OF THE SAME NATURE AS HIS FATHER.
    AND ONLY HIM CAN BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    A SINGLE MAN COULD NOT BE BECAUSE ALL MEN BORN ON THIS EARTH ARE BORN WITHOUT THE GLORY OF GOD.

    Romans 3:23.  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    #866866
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…..subject matter did change   it started out speaking about God ‘s word, comming to fulfillment,  the it goes from God to the “man” Jesus’ that is what you people are failing to see.

    I fail to see it because it’s simply not there, Gene.  Starting in 1:14, the subject about whom John is writing is “the Word”.  He does not change the subject he’s writing about until verse 18.  But I laid it out for you in my post, step by step.  Show me where John stopped talking about “the Word” and began talking about a different subject.

    #866867
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  I realise you will not an answer this directly because both of you are not honest people. Can you see the deceit in your heart now? You know your true answer means you lose the debate, so you prefer to ignore the question. Shame on you guys. God can see the deceit. He is not blind.

    This is unacceptable rhetoric for any civilized debate between decent adults – let alone a “Christian” debate.  People who have a different interpretation/understanding of something are not necessarily “not honest people”.  I don’t consider Jodi, Gene, Ed, Carmel, Berean or anyone else here “not honest people” – even though I have many disagreements of interpretation with every one of them.  And any man who deems himself in such high regard as to know the heart of another man needs to take himself down a notch or two.

    #866868
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Jesus is the “only”, “begotten son”,  (from mankind), of God,  So far,  he is the “firstborn” of “MANY “, BRETHERN”. When will you ever come to see that. It does not say the only one to ever be ,  a Son of God, as you people try to make it out to be. 

    Brean what you people do it get about 10%, of what is written while ignoring the other 90% of scriptures, and even the 10% you have you add to what is actually being said.

    Before you start telling people about their spirituality,  you need to consider your own,  for a change.  “why beholdest  the mote in they brothers eye,  and not see the beam in your own eye”, first get t h e beam out of your eye , then you can see clearly to remove the mote c in thy brothers eye”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

    #866869
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Hi Mike,

    Are you going to ask another question or give a speech?

    What?  I’m waiting for you to show me where John switched subjects between verse 14 and verse 18.  I laid it out for you sentence by sentence.  When did John stop talking about “the Word” and begin talking about a different subject?

    Ed:  “The Lord gave “The Word”: great was the company of those that published it.” (Psalms 68:11)

    We know words were given, and they are spirit according to John 6:63. Here’s my next question:

    “The Word” according to Psalm 68:11 is “The Bible” – do you agree?

    “Yes” or “no” ?

    No.

    2 Samuel 7: 4-5

    But that night the word of Jehovah came to Nathan, saying:  “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Jehovah says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in?” 

    In your understanding (where every instance of “word” means “Bible”), the above basically has “the Bible” saying to Nathan, “This is what Jehovah says…”

    Like I said, assuming that every instance of “word” in the scriptures refers to the same thing is not only irrational, but easily refuted by the scriptures themselves.  Eddy, “the Bible” doesn’t ride a white horse and where a robe.  Please go back to the John 1 example, and show me where John changes subjects between vs 14 and vs 18.  Thanks.

    #866870
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I completely agree with your last post to Proclaimer.  But now back to your post to me,  your are right the subject matter did not change until version 18,  but verse is still talking about God and his word, not God and  Jesus being his word.

    Mike several reasons,  one of the most obvious,  a word , any word, could never be a “being” ever.  It says in the beginning, the beginning of what?  One can only assume JOHN was speaking of GENESIS 1:1-14,  the beginning of this creation on this earth, seening he could not recall any other beginning,  given in scriptures.  Now if you Go to Genesis 1:1-14 , what do you find? , two things  are said over and over, what are they?   They are  “God and God “said” ,  so in the beginning  was God and His words.  God is made up of him,  and his words express him,  just as you are made up of you and your words express you, There is no difference. 

    If John was meaning Jesus was the word of God there,   he would have clearly said it .  It would have read like this , in the beginning was the word who was  Jesus, and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God. Do you really think John would not have made this point apsolutely clear, in that sentences in John 1:1 if that is what he meant? 

    So you see the subject matter did not change untill 18, because he was talking about God the Father, who created everything in existence.

    We can back this up with many other scriptures,  example,

    Isa 42:5, 45:8, 45:12, 45: 18, and hundreds more show God himself , created everything that exists and he even said he did it by “himself and “alone”.

    Mike you have no scripture that says Jesus was there at anytime of creation at all.  If it exists please post it.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #866871
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Jodi,

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Another hard to deny scriptural proof.  Of course the proper English translation is, “before Abraham was, I was“, or “before Abraham existed, I existed“.  The “I am” translation comes from English translators not properly rendering the Greek statement to the literal English equivalent.  For example…

    John 14:9

    Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?

    This is also written in the Greek present tense (“even after I am among you such a long time“), but that doesn’t make sense in English.  The Greek present tense often corresponds directly with the English present tense, but some phrases that would be rendered in the past tense in English are in the present tense in Greek.  Those are called “historical presents”, and are usually translated as past tense in English – like John 14:9 above.  The reason most translations don’t render John 8:58 as “before Abraham was, I was” is that those translations are produced by Trinitarian scholars, and those scholars believe the name of God (YHVH) literally means “I AM”.  Even though that hasn’t ever been confirmed (and can’t be), they see this as a way to make Jesus claim he is “I AM” – apparently oblivious of the fact that for Jesus to be claiming such a thing, he would have said, “before Abraham was, I was I AM“.  Just saying the phrase “I AM” – which is the most used pronoun/verb phrase in any language, isn’t a claim to BEING somebody named “I AM”.  Ironically, the majority of those translation that have “I am” in John 8:58, render John 14:9 correctly as “I have been“. 🤔

    Anyway, literary lesson aside, you make an excellent point that Jesus did indeed CLEARLY tell the Jews that he had existed before Abraham was even a gleam in his daddy’s eye. 😉

    #866872
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  But you need honest people in the process to make that happen.

    Unfortunately there are people here who are not honest.

    They cannot answer a simple yes or no.

    Thus, their answers must be coming from the Evil One.

    Please stop these personal attacks.

    #866873
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: That’s just it though, he doesn’t exist as a spirit entity in heaven Mike, he sits at YHVH’s right hand as a Son of Man, and he is returning to earth as a Son of Man, and when he returns to earth he is going to sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit, which makes him a spiritual human being, The Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a Son of God. Your are “spiritual” when you walk in all of God’s ways.  

    Flesh cannot enter nor inherit the Kingdom of God.  Jesus’ body was transformed into the glorious body he has now… the kind of body Paul yearned for:

    Philippians 3:21

    who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    1 Corinthians 15:49
    And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

    Jodi, you didn’t address my post on “the light”.  You haven’t addressed my more recent post on “the Word”.  In John 1:14, John begins writing about a subject he calls “the Word”.  I contend that John doesn’t change subjects until vs 18.  What say you?  Can you show me where John changes the subject he’s writing about between vs 14 and vs 18?

     

    #866874
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    What I am telling you about Jesus is simply the truth.
    You preach a CHRIST OUTSIDE THE LAW.

    YOU DON’T REALIZE THAT A SINGLE MAN WHEN HE COMES TO THE WORLD IS DEPRIVED OF GOD’S GLORY AND CANNOT (IS DISQUALIFIED) TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. EVERY MAN WHO IS BORN IN THIS WORLD NEEDS A SAVIOR .JESUS ​​WAS NOT IN THIS CASE SINCE HE WAS / AND STILL IS THE OWN DIVINE SON OF GOD. HE IS NOT OF THIS EARTH.
    Speaking of Jesus, John the baptist said:
    He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    [32] And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    [33] He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
    [34] For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
    [35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
    [36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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