John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,321 through 20,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #863399
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: So then you agree that the Father has power to do anything He wants, with or without the Son… while the Son has only the power and authority given to him by his and our God, Jehovah, right?

    The Father and the Son have power to do anything they want and are never without the other.

    #863400
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction. In the Father, the one mind has the wisdom from the Father’s perspective. In the Son, the one mind has the wisdom from the Son’s perspective. Both the Father and the Son know all things according to their own unique perspective. The Father does not know what it is like to be an only begotten son and the Son does not know what it is like to be his Father, as I understand it.

    #863401
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: Kathi, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4? What is his name?

    Whatever I told you back then still stands. The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    #863404
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    So although the scripture itself has the living entity Jesus of Nazareth asking for the return of glory “I kept on having…before the world began“, you and Gene think that wording can reasonably mean, “please give me the glory that you’ve had planned for me since before I, or the world itself, was created“?

    Please confirm for me that you think “the glory I had” is a phrase someone would say to convey “the glory you’ve had planned for me“, and we can move on from John 17:5

    ME: You say, “asking for the RETURN of glory” I don’t see that in the text that it is a return to glory.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I had (Echo/have) with (Para/ from or of) thee before the world was.

    5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I have of thee before the world was.

    Mike please consider what Jesus says later in this chapter speaking of glory how it is our same glory.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    Jesus says he has it already and that he likewise gave it to others already. He doesn’t actually “have it” yet, what he does “have” is the promise of it. Likewise those that are his don’t actually “have” it yet, what they have is the promise of it.

    What Jesus had at that moment and what we had at that moment was God’s promise that He made before the world began, eternal life.

    Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

     

     

    #863410
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi said: Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

    Jodi would not have the opportunity to ask God for glory of any kind before the world was because she wouldn’t have even existed with or without glory apart from the Son’s existence. If not for the Son none of us would be here longing for glory of any kind.

    #863421
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The Father and the Son have power to do anything they want and are never without the other.

    The difference being that the Son’s power was given to him by the Father, right?  So while the Father has the power to do anything He wants, Jesus has the exact amount of power and authority that his and our God, Jehovah, has given him… which is the same case for you, me, Satan, Pontius Pilate, or anyone else.  As for the “never without each other”, the same could be said about Michael, Gabriel, Satan, the souls under the alter in Revelation, or even faithful living human servants of Jehovah.

    #863422
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction.

    What the heck does that even mean? 🤔  Are you saying that the Father and Son CURRENTLY share one single mind, and that this one mind contains a Son perspective and a Father perspective?  Curiouser and curiouser.

    LU:  The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    But it’s clear that you’re making your cell theory up as you go!  How can you say you won’t address actual scriptures until I understand a theory that you keep tweaking?

    Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

    #863423
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: The difference being that the Son’s power was given to him by the Father, right?

    Does “power” mean ability or authority in your use in that question? For instance, in fleshly terms, your son could be every bit as capable to do such and such as you, his father, but without the go ahead from you, he cannot go ahead and do the such and such.

    The Son has all the ability to do such and such, just as the Father does, but if his Father does not give the “go ahead” to do the such and such, the Son does not have the authority to do it although very capable to do it if he did have the authority given to him. The Son is a perfect son, he does nothing apart from the Father. The Father always works through his perfect Son. Whatever God does for you, Mike, both, together with their united spirit, were involved in the doing of it.

    #863424
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Regarding this post:

    LU: The one mind is expressed from two different perspectives as it indwells two different persons as a result of going through the process of asexual reproduction.

    Mike: What the heck does that even mean?   Are you saying that the Father and Son CURRENTLY share one single mind, and that this one mind contains a Son perspective and a Father perspective?  Curiouser and curiouser.

    LU:  The cell theory needs to be understood correctly and then you will get a better understanding of Acts 4.

    Mike: But it’s clear that you’re making your cell theory up as you go!  How can you say you won’t address actual scriptures until I understand a theory that you keep tweaking?

    I’m not saying that currently the Father and the Son share one single mind. Like the cell theory, both cells are full and complete and while distinct with their own minds, they each have a different perspective as they know all things. One knows all things from a father’s perspective and the other knows all things from a son’s perspective. Before the asexual reproduction, there was only one perspective and it was neither the perspective of a father or a son.

    For example, you and your son can experience the afternoon of fishing together, just the two of you, in the same boat, but each of you will tell of the experience from his own perspective and there may be differences in how each of you tell the story. That doesn’t imply that one is telling the truth and the other is lying but both could be telling the truth yet the story isn’t exactly the same because of there being two different perspectives.

    As per my cell analogy being one that has been developing, you are exactly right. That is why I brought it here, to sharpen it. Thank you Mike for helping me. You have helped me think through it deeper and deeper. I believe that the analogy will be more and more useful in discussions about God as it is more clearly understood by me as I express it to others.

    God bless, LU

    #863425
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding your post here:

    Kathi, in Acts 4 the apostles prayed to someone who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  In that prayer, they twice identified the Son as “the holy servant OF“ the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles praying to the Father God Jehovah – the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    I understand that as the apostles identifying Jesus as the holy servant OF the Creator of heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and therefore not himself Jehovah God to whom they prayed, nor the creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them.

    I further understand that if Jesus is clearly distinguished as someone other than the God to whom they prayed, ie: the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, Jesus must therefore be one of the “everything in them” that was created by the one to whom the apostles prayed.

    Please correct any errors you find in my understanding of this prayer in Acts 4.

    This prayer identifies Jesus as the Messiah that the Jews just rejected and killed fulfilling the prophecy of the stone that was rejected. The rulers and leaders of the Jews saw a man healed in Jesus name and were furious because it made them out to be the stupid ones that the prophecy is portraying about the builders who rejected the stone and about the rulers taking a stand against the Messiah in the prophecy given through David. Because of their pride, they did not want to accept that they could be the stupid ones, so they rejected the idea that Jesus could be the Messiah. They forbid anyone to use the name of Jesus ever again but as you see in the prayer, the name was used boldly among the believers. It was an important moment when the believing Jews went against the authority of the ruling Jews and boldly proclaimed the name of Jesus inspite of their command.

    The context is not about how or through whom creation took place but every bit about recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah and the power of his name that the rulers are rejecting.

    Learning who the Messiah was and is, has been a process that develops as the Spirit releases more and more clarity. Perfect understanding of who and what the Messiah is did not just plop into the early Christian’s minds when they saw the risen savior, Mike. Similar to the cell analogy, clarity comes through seeking and wrestling with what we are given and seeking first the kingdom of God will draw us closer to the truth about all things related to God. Until we get to heaven, our “clarity” is going to be cloudy to some degree. Some people will see more clearer than others about one aspect and some people will see more clearly about another aspect.

    Questions are good. Keep asking with an open heart for understanding.

    In the name of Jesus, LU

    #863426
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Sorry in advance for the long post…

    Jodi:  You say, “asking for the RETURN of glory” I don’t see that in the text that it is a return to glory.

    I knew it as I was typing that word! 😁  I knew from past discussions on this verse that you would jump on the word “return” – but I left it in anyway.  Great, now we have a diversion that I have to overcome.  Okay… IF Jesus is asking for a glory he himself HAD before the world began – as the text clearly and undeniably indicates – then he is clearly asking for a RETURN of a glory he previously had.  So although the word “return” isn’t in the text, anybody asking to be given something they used to have is asking for that thing to be returned to them.

    Jodi:  …the glory which I had (Echo/have)…

    Rather, echó in the imperfect tense:  “the glory I kept on having…before the world began”.

    Jodi: Mike please consider what Jesus says later in this chapter speaking of glory how it is our same glory.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    Jesus says he has it already and that he likewise gave it to others already.

    No… Jesus had a certain glory from God when he dwelt on earth.  This is the glory spoken of in John 1:14.  This is the glory that Jesus shared with his apostles while he was still on earth.  This is clearly not the glory he was asking God to return him to in his prayer, and we know this from verse 24…

    Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jesus is telling his God that he is anxious for his apostles to also be with him in heaven so they can see his TRUE glory – the glory he had with the Father before the world began and before he was sent into the world to dwell for a short time.  In your scenario, Jesus would be asking that his apostles be able to see a glory that they’d not only already seen, but that they themselves had already been given.

    Jodi:  Mike, I can rightfully ask God for the glory that I had of God before the world was, just as Jesus did.

    No you couldn’t.  Nor would you ever ask God to give you a glory you already had before the world began, because it would be a nonsensical thing for you to ask.  You are only saying that you could do it because your doctrine requires you to.

    Listen Jodi, you are a very intelligent person, and you are able to clearly recognize the mental gymnastics and absurdities Kathi, Carmel, and Berean are forced to promote in order to force God’s holy servant Jesus into BEING part of the very God he serves.  Kathi is also a very intelligent person, and is able to clearly recognize the mental gymnastics you and Gene promote in order to force God’s holy servant Jesus into being nothing but a normal human being like everybody else.  I am an intelligent person who – from my position in the scripturally-supported middle of these two extremes – is able to recognize the mental gymnastics and absurdities both you and Kathi promote.

    No, God wasn’t a “cell” with one mind who split into two cells with one mind that has two different perspectives.  No, you could not ask God to give you a glory you had before the world began.  You could ask God to look favorably on your service to Him on earth, and pray that He reward you with great glory after the resurrection.  But you have no idea how you will be judged, and therefore couldn’t possibly ask to be given something you already had when you don’t know if you’ll get it in the first place.  God knows, but you don’t.  You couldn’t even ask for Him to give you the glory He’s “been holding for you” (as Gene says) – because once again, you don’t know that He has been holding any glory for you.

    Now add to that the fact that you can only make your mental gymnastics argument at all if you choose to translate “para” as the much less common “of” instead of “with” or “alongside”.  What if “with” was the only translation of “para”?  How then would you read John 17:5?  Hopefully you would read it as Jesus asking to be returned to a glory that he once had in the presence of God before the world began.  And then your entire doctrine would fall apart because of one single verse, right?

    So here’s what I’m wondering:  How can you be so certain of a doctrine that could be completely destroyed by simply translating the Greek word “para” as the much more common “with/alongside/in the presence of” instead of your choice, “of”?

    How can you be so certain of a doctrine that could be completely destroyed by simply understanding the words “the glory I HAD before the world began” in the most natural, rational, commonsensical way that those words could be understood?

    But like I said in my last post, if you are insistent upon using “of” and imagining that “the glory I HAD somehow refers to a glory the speaker didn’t actually have, then we can move on to one of the many other scriptures that clearly teach of Jesus’ preexistence.

    #863428
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike, mike mike,

    Did you really just write this: No, God wasn’t a “cell” with one mind who split into two cells with one mind that has two different perspectives.

    Didn’t I recently correct you on this. I never said God was a cell. It is an analogy.

    #863429
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Jodi would not have the opportunity to ask God for glory of any kind before the world was because she wouldn’t have even existed with or without glory apart from the Son’s existence. If not for the Son none of us would be here longing for glory of any kind.

    True.  And even with the Son’s existence and sacrifice, nobody in their right mind would ask God to give them glory, but refer to it as a glory they had before the world began.  That’s just mental gymnastics to force a doctrine into the scriptures that isn’t actually there.  If you already have that glory from God’s timeless point of view, then why are you asking God for it? 😉

    #863430
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    Let me tell you that Jesus is divine human

    You teach ERROR  BIG ERROR

     

    #863431
    Berean
    Participant

    There is not a single man (100 percent human)
    who has not sinned and is not deprived of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and who does not fundamentally need the Lord Jesus to hope one day to inherit eternal life.
    This is why a hundred percent human Jesus makes him a person who needs a savior.
    The Bible is formal, salvation came from above through the only begotten Son of God who was made flesh and who dwelt among us full of grace and truth.

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Jesus was in the form of God…. and  He took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men

    FORM OF GOD ……………….FORM OF MAN’S SERVANT

    This is not a Babylonian mystery religion teaching but a part of the pure and simple truth of the eternal Gospel.

    #863436
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Son has all the ability to do such and such, just as the Father does, but if his Father does not give the “go ahead” to do the such and such, the Son does not have the authority to do it although very capable to do it if he did have the authority given to him.

    We agree that Jesus can do nothing that God didn’t authorize him to do.  But Jesus’ power/ability to do this or that also comes from God.  This is why Jesus waits for his and our God to place his enemies at his feet so Jesus can then destroy them.

    LU:  Whatever God does for you, Mike, both, together with their united spirit, were involved in the doing of it.

    Not necessarily.  I agree that God works very closely with His “right hand man” – as do many leaders.  But angels were sent while Jesus was growing in Mary’s womb, right?  Surely Jesus wasn’t involved in the sending of those angels.  God did a lot of things during Jesus’ time on earth that Jesus wasn’t involved with.  And at any given time, God can choose to do anything He wants without the help or company of Jesus.  The same cannot be said for Jesus.  It seems to me that you’re implying that they MUST work together in all things – without actually coming out and saying that.  If so, your implication is misleading… and erroneous.

    #863437
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

     

    #863438
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Again Jodi, you simply are MAD about ONLY proclaiming

     JESUS’ HUMANITY, to the extent that

    YOU ARE STRETCHING SCRIPTURES, INVENTING CORRUPTED UNDERSTANDINGS,

    ALTER WHATEVER IT IS  A GENUINE PROOF OF HIS DIVINITY,

    AS LONG AS IT’S  PLEASES YOUR CARNAL MINDED MENTALITY,

    IGNORING THE TRUE MESSAGE,

    IGNORING THAT THE HUMAN RACE  was INDEBTED TO SATAN,

    ONCE ADAM UTILIZED HIS ASSET, SIN, and

    STUBORNLY INSIST TO KEEP ON

    WITH YOUR HEAD BURIED IN THE SAND 

    PROCLAIMING YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF

    EVEN IMITATING THE FATHER OF LIES:

    SATAN, 

    THAT JESUS IS

     A MAN, AUTHENTIC TO ALL OTHER CURSED MEN,

    WHEN SCRIPTURE IS MORE THAN CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS

    MADE IN ALL THINGS

    LIKE  not authentic

    UNTO HIS BRETHREN

    YOU ONLY ACCEPT HIM

    A SON OF ABRAHAM LIKE ALL OTHER SONS OF ABRAHAM

    A SON OF DAVID LIKE ALL OTHER SONS OF DAVID,

    BUT NEVER ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT JESUS 

    IS THE GENUINE SON OF GOD

    THE FATHER’S GENUINE SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3

    NOW TO YOUR LIES:

    YOU: that God promised He would be a Father to and set him up as an eternal king giving him the throne of his father David.

    ME: DIDN’T JESUS HIMSELF  DECLARED THAT

    GOD IS HIS FATHER?

    WHY DO YOU IGNORE THIS PURE TRUTH?

    JUST READ YOUR OWN CONTRADICTION:

    eternal king

    WHO IS ETERNAL JODI?

    ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL!

    Now read please:

    Dictionary.com

    eternal

    adjective

    without beginning or end;
    lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal):eternal life.

    Can a human being of earth be 

    ETERNAL? Since he had A BEGINNING!

    AND IF JESUS IS ETERNAL KING ISN’T IT CLEAR TO YOU THAT JESUS

    NEVER HAD A BEGINNING!

    The fact that He was MYSTERIOUSLY CONCEIVED

    By the ETERNAL source OF THE HOLY GHOST?

    NOT OF A MORTAL MAN OF EARTH?

    BUT A SPIRIT 

    Luke 1:35…. The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and 

    THE POWER of the Most High shall OVERSHADOW thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Jeremiah31:22 ‘….for the Lord hath created a NEW THING  upon the earth:

    A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

     Jodi THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR ASSERTION THAT 

    Joseph’s sperm had nothing to do with Jesus’ conception.

    You: TRUE BELIEVERS BELIEVED that Jesus could do nothing of  himself,

    he did not send himself,

    PURE LIE!

    TRUE BELIEVERS BELIEVE THAT GOD IN THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

    THE FACT THAT GOD SENT

    THE SON, HIMSELF AS MAN TO BE SACRIFICED by which sacrifice

    THE FATHER AND THE SON AS GOD

    IS OUR SAVIOUR!

    GENESIS 22:8 And Abraham said:

    God will provide

    HIMSELF a victim for a holocaust, my son.

    So they went on together.

    GOD THE FATHER and GOD THE SON TOGETHER ON THE CROSS!

    Jodi, you seem incapable of apply scriptures together

    that literally go hand in hand.

    they believed that their God sent them the prophet of HIS WORD from long ago,  they saw Jesus as God’s WORD MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH.  He CAME to them being FROM GOD/thus they saw him as SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

    Now read the truth:

    Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said to them:

    Amen, amen, I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven,

    but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

    In the above we have PHYSICALLY THE MANNA WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN!

    33For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the world.

    IN THE ABOVE WE HAVE JESUS’ ASSERTION THAT

    PHYSICALLY HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN! 

    TWO PHYSICAL PARALLEL EXAMPLES 

    YOURS IS METAPHORICAL!!!!

    IT DOES NOT APPLY!

    34They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.

    OK, Jodi, They understood very clearly that it was 

    PHYSICAL! not according to o your lies!

    35And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

    41The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

    42And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

    How then saith he:

    I came down from heaven Jodi

    OK, Jodi, PHYSICALLY CAME DOWN FOR GOD’S SAKE!

    Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead.

    PHYSICALLY THEY ATE MANNA!

    50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

    PHYSICALLY WE MUST EAT JESUS’FLESH

    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

    and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.

    53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    PHYSICALLY THEY UNDERSTOOD Jodi! 

    STOP IGNORING STUBORNLY THE

    TRUE MESSAGE

    54Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 58As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

    59This is the bread that came down from heaven.

    EMPHATICALLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE CAME DOWN PHYSICALLY!

    Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead.

    PHYSICALLY ATE THE MANNA!

    He that eateth this bread shall live forever.

     JESUS ASSERTED THAT PHYSICALLY WE MUST EAT HIS FLESH AS BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

    YOUR HEAD IS UNDER THE SAND! WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!

    ME: Berean, you totally neglect the fact that Jesus said he could do nothing of himself,

    Jodi YOU TOTALLY NEGLECT THE FACT THAT THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF!

    The scriptures you give where you are trying to say that people were in error because they did not believe that Jesus was God sent from heaven, actually tell you directly that their error was in them

    not believing that the son of Joseph and Mary, the man who was a mere carpenter, was the great prophet spoken in prophecy. 

    NO Jodi go back and read again John 6 above!

    YOU: The people REFUSED Jesus as the PROPHET of God’s word, raised up from among brethren. I DO NOT REFUSE.

    LIES, LIES, and LIES! READ:

    John5:16 Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them:

    My Father worketh until now; and I work.

    18Hereupon, therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

    Ok Jodi THEY REFUSED AND WANTED TO KILL  JESUS BECAUSE JESUS SAID THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER,

    MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD.

    IF HE SAID THAT HE WAS A PROPHET THEY WOULDN’T HAVE REFUSED HIM NEVER MIND KILLED HIM!

     7:29I know him, because I am from him: and he hath sent me.

    30They sought therefore to apprehend him: and no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come. That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

    30I and the Father are one.

    AGAIN Jodi: They tried to apprehend him, but FAILED

    AS THEY HAD NO AUTHORITY OVER HIM! like men of earth.

    JESUS HAD AUTHORITY OVER HIS OWN LIFE.

    HE DIED NOT BECAUSE HE WAS A SINNER LIKE HUMANS ARE, BUT BECAUSE,

    HE WAS A DIVINE BEING, ATTENTION JODI:

    HAS THE POWER TO DIE!

    ANSWER Jodi: DO YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR POWER TO DIE?

    OF COURSE NOT, IN FACT, TO DIE IS THE SIMPLEST THING TO DO.

    NO POWER AT ALL!

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF POWER JESUS HAD?

    NO, YOU WOULDN’T AND YOU COULDN’T EXPLAIN

    HOW CAN A CARNAL MINDED PERSON SEE SUCH 

    SPIRITUAL TASKS? WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    10:31The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

    AGAIN THEY WANTED TO STONE HIM WHY?

    READ ON:

    32Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father.

    AS THE FATHER COULD NOT DO ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF.

    For which of those works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou.

    being a, man, makest thyself God.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL JODI!

    DO NOT TELL MORE LIES PLEASE! THEY REFUSED JESUS BECAUSE

    HE MADE HIMSELF GOD!

     AND HE WAS GOD!

    WHO ON EARTH IN THOSE DAYS  WOULD PROCLAIM SUCH

    PURE TRUTH!

    WHEN THE JEWS  ARE TERRORIZED  TO PRONOUNCE GOD’S MYSTERIOUS NAME!

    34Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are gods? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken: 36Do you say of him

    whom the Father hath sanctified and

    sent into the world:

    Thou blasphemest; because I said:

    I am the Son of God?

    37If I do not the works of my Father, ( AS MY FATHER IS USELESS ON HIS OWN) believe me not. 38But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that

    the Father is in me and I in the Father.

    39They sought therefore to take him: and he escaped out of their hands.

    ANSWER: DID THEY REFUSE AND WANT TO TAKE JESUS AS A PROPHET?

    HOW MANY SCRIPTURES DO YOU WANT TO READ TO ACCEPT?

    THE TRUTH

    YOU: The people REFUSED Jesus as the PROPHET of God’s word, raised up from among brethren. I DO NOT REFUSE.

    Jodi YOU RECEIVE JESUS AS A JUST MAN AND AS PROPHET THEN

    YOUR REWARD WILL ALSO BE LIKEWISE!

    Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and

    he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

    41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and

    he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863439
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Not necessarily.  I agree that God works very closely with His “right hand man” – as do many leaders.  But angels were sent while Jesus was growing in Mary’s womb, right?  Surely Jesus wasn’t involved in the sending of those angels.  God did a lot of things during Jesus’ time on earth that Jesus wasn’t involved with.  And at any given time, God can choose to do anything He wants without the help or company of Jesus.  The same cannot be said for Jesus.  It seems to me that you’re implying that they MUST work together in all things – without actually coming out and saying that.  If so, your implication is misleading… and erroneous.

    i do not agree that the Son had nothing to do with some of the things the Father did while Jesus was on earth. If the Father didn’t do something through the active participation of the Son, it was done for the Son’s benefit in some way.  The angel sent to Mary was because of the Son, btw. The angel sent to Zachariah was because of His Son, btw. Even Satan was and is allowed to do his evil because the Son destroyed his power and will destroy him. And on and on…

     

    #863440
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Do you realize that you can do nothing apart from the Son? You can’t even exist apart from the Son, not even for a second.

Viewing 20 posts - 20,321 through 20,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account