John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,301 through 20,320 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God

    . “Sovereign Lord,” they said,
    Isn’t that enough Mike?

    what else do you require from Acts 4:24 to justify

    YOUR POINT?

    Why is this like pulling teeth, Carmel?  I ask who they were praying to, and you say, “the Lord”.  I ask you to IDENTIFY the Lord to whom they prayed, and you say, “Sovereign Lord”.  Dude, what is his NAME? 😁   What is the NAME of the one to whom they prayed?   Or better yet… is “Jesus” the name of the one to whom they prayed?

    #863371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: NOT A SERVANT ANYMORE BUT
     GOD the son,
    Galatians 4:7 Therefore, now he is not a servant, but a son. 

    You are very confused, Carmel…

    1.  Not “God the son”, but “the son OF God”.  Big difference.
    2.  Galatians 4:7 isn’t about Jesus.  Paul is talking about believers undertaking a new and better relationship with God.  It was about us being “promoted” from simple slaves to actual spiritual sons of God.  Jesus was a spiritual son of God from the moment God created him as the first of His works.  Jesus didn’t need to get promoted to “spiritual son of God”.  And even as “spiritual sons of God”, we and Jesus will always still be servants of our God.
    3. Case in point: the prayer in Acts 4 was AFTER Jesus was raised to the right hand of his and our God, and AFTER he had been given a ton of power and authority BY his and our God.  Yet they still called him God’s holy servant, right?

    Carmel:  All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

    NOT A TON OF POWER.

     

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Who gave Jesus “all power and authority”, Carmel?  Do you imagine that by giving this power to Jesus, the One who gave it relinquished His own power?  Do you imagine that the one who was granted power by the greater One now has MORE power than the greater One?

     

     

    #863374
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Yes Mike, Jesus is THE ACTUAL LITERAL WORD SPOKEN OF GOD

    No he’s not.  But if he was, then your doctrine is in trouble.  How can a single word someone spoke be greater than the one who spoke that word?  How does the speaker become the servant of a word that he spoke?  And what of all the other words that speaker spoke in his lifetime?  Did all of those words also become living entities that the speaker now has to serve?  You are a very confused person, Carmel.  Keep your posts small and to the point, and I’m happy to go through these odd beliefs you have to see if we can figure out where the problem lies.  Cheers.

    #863375
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: But now YOU are also claiming that the Most High God would have no power to do anything if not for His Son? Are you serious?

    Nope, not what I said.

    #863376
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: Wait a minute… are you saying that the cell splitting scenario you’re pushing doesn’t stand up to scrutiny?

    No, I’m not saying that.

    #863377
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: I’m still wanting to know about the prayer in Acts 4…

    I answered that soon after you asked. Go look for it, I’ll wait.

    #863378
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi said: One does not have truth when they fully IGNORE scripture and don’t apply context, as well as other passages, but instead just see things how they want to see, such is the blind leading the blind.

    The pot calling the kettle black?

    #863383
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    To Jodi, Gene and anyone who thinks Jesus began his existence as a human being…

    John 17:5 How could Jesus ask God to glorify him with the glory he had with/from/of/alongside God before the world began?

    ME:

    Mike, I understand God’s prophecies to be of His purpose declared from the beginning, so that makes the prophecy of Psalms 8 God’s word from the beginning, and in that word you have a MAN who God gives glory and honor to.

    The Man Jesus knew this glory that was from the beginning that was of God for the Son of Man. In John 17 the Son of Man Jesus is asking for that glory, showing his faith in God’s word.

    When I then read that it is the Son of Man that is exalted to the right hand of God, God’s word from the beginning is confirmed as true. 

    When I then read that it is the Son of Man returning in his Father’s glory, God’s word from the beginning is confirmed as true. 

    #863385
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    I am hoping you will reply to what I said about applying Proverbs 3, Isaiah’s prophecy, and the first half of Proverbs 8 with the second half of Proverbs 8.

    Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

    I’d like to point out something else, the LORD is doing the CREATING, He is making the COMMANDS, while His wisdom was there with him.  

    Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

    #863386
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Jesus didn’t say “I” or “we” created them, he spoke of his God and our God creating them male and female.

     

    #863387
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I agree with a lot of stuff you say,  but the Glory that Jesus had before the world was ever created,  was what God had planned for him, even before he ever existed. Jesus was a planned protype of GOD’S intended purpose,  before he ever came into his existence, Jesus fullwell understood that, and when he had finished those prophetic things written about  him and the works he was given too, he understood also the glory he was to recieve,  a glory planned for him before GOD ever created anything including him.   I can say the same thing about the Glory I had (pastense)  with God before the world ever existed too, so can you.  It is a predestined GLORY.

    Is that not what scriptures says,?,   based on what? Scripture,  …  “what is man that you visite him, that so kind to him you should be,  you have made him a little lower the the Angels , you have ( past tense) crowned (past tense)  him with GLORY and HONOR,  and have put “ALL”  things under his feet. AND  going on what else does it say about us (mankind) , “we do not “Yet” see all thing put under his (mankind’s) feet, but what do we see? …We see Jesus Christ who,  like us,  was made a little lower then the ANGELS, FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, JUST LIKE US, who is  (NOW) crowned with Glory and Honor, and all thinges under his feet. 

    So Jesus can say,  indeed , he had that Glory already with the Father and SO CAN WE.   But he “now” has received it, we haven’t, ” yet”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #863388
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu and All,

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man (ADAM/HUMAN BEING) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Jesus Christ is NOT God, but exists in the image of God. 

    And most certainly Jesus Christ is said to be an ADAM/HUMAN BEING

    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by MAN (ANTHROPOS/HUMAN BEING) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    #863389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other.

    Mike:  But now YOU are also claiming that the Most High God would have no power to do anything if not for His Son?  Are you serious?

    LU:  Nope, not what I said.

    Phew! That’s good to know.  So then you agree that the Father has power to do anything He wants, with or without the Son… while the Son has only the power and authority given to him by his and our God, Jehovah, right?

     

     

     

    #863391
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Okay, but I want to know if the original One consisted of two individual entities.  You used the word “their”, which made me think you believe there were two sentient minds in the original One.  Is that what you think?  Or was the original One a single entity/mind?

    LU:  Oh who can fathom…from the One mind came both. Jesus is the wisdom of God.

    Mike:  Wait a minute… are you saying that the cell splitting scenario you’re pushing doesn’t stand up to scrutiny?

    LU:  No, I’m not saying that.

    So then please explain the rest of my post.  You said above that both came from the One mind, right?  So here are the options as I see it…

    1.  Father and Son currently share the same mind they shared when they were “The One”.
    2.  Father and Son now have two minds (since they are now two instead of one), but both minds are identical.
    3.   The One was an entity in and of itself, and when it split it created both the Father’s mind and the Son’s mind as separate minds.

    What say you?

    #863392
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  I’m still wanting to know about the prayer in Acts 4…

    LU:  I answered that soon after you asked. Go look for it, I’ll wait.

    But you didn’t actually answer it.  You veered back off into this cell splitting thing, and so I realized that I’d have to totally dismantle that scenario in order to get back to discussing what the SCRIPTURES actually teach us.  Now that it has been dismantled, let’s do get back to scripture, please.

    Kathi, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4?  What is his name?

    #863393
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jesus is divino human

    No man can speak like Him

    even with all the power of the Holy Spirit

     

    read

     

     I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    [16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    [17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

     

    #863394
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mike, I understand God’s prophecies to be of His purpose declared from the beginning, so that makes the prophecy of Psalms 8 God’s word from the beginning, and in that word you have a MAN who God gives glory and honor to. The Man Jesus knew this glory that was from the beginning that was of God for the Son of Man. In John 17 the Son of Man Jesus is asking for that glory, showing his faith in God’s word.

    Hi Jodi, thanks for the very coherent answer.   This is very similar to the explanation Gene has given many times…

    Gene:  …the Glory that Jesus had before the world was ever created,  was what God had planned for him, even before he ever existed.

    So although the scripture itself has the living entity Jesus of Nazareth asking for the return of glory “I kept on having…before the world began“, you and Gene think that wording can reasonably mean, “please give me the glory that you’ve had planned for me since before I, or the world itself, was created“?

    Please confirm for me that you think “the glory I had” is a phrase someone would say to convey “the glory you’ve had planned for me“, and we can move on from John 17:5.

     

     

     

    #863395
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: you have made him a little lower the the Angels, you have ( past tense) crowned (past tense)  him with GLORY and HONOR,  and have put “ALL”  things under his feet.

    David was speaking about things that had already happened, therefore the past tense.  David also went on to list some of the “all things” that God had already (past tense) put under mankind’s feet.  Things like sheep, oxen, and beasts of the field.  But many other writers have talked about a coming glory that God has in store for those who love Him, right?  Not one of them ever refers to that coming glory as a glory THEY HAD, either with or from God before the word began.

    On a side note, David said “a little lower than the gods“, not the “angels”.  Why?  Because there are tons of gods, but only one Most High God OF all the other gods.  That’s important to know if you are seeking scriptural truth.

    Cheers.

    #863396
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Jesus didn’t say “I” or “we” created them, he spoke of his God and our God creating them male and female.

    👍👍👍👏👏👏

     

    #863398
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    First let me say,  I make points to you and give you scripture that I want you to discuss and time and time again you just ignore and revert to another passage.

    YOU:

    Jodi

    Jesus is divino human

    No man can speak like Him

    even with all the power of the Holy Spirit

    ME: John 3 tells you that “he who speaks the word of God does so because he received the Spirit not by measure” (John 3)

    Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 which was a promise made unto the son of Jesse. Jesus says that the Spirit is upon him, an anointing, where he is sent out to PREACH God’s word.

    So yes Berean, NO MAN can speak like him, BECAUSE NO MAN but him was begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

    Not only did the Spirit and powers within descend upon Jesus at the river Jordan in order for him TO SPEAK God’s word, he was also anointed and sent to set captives at liberty through dying on the cross.

    He lays down his life so that he may take life up again for all of mankind Jews and Gentiles. God ordained this man giving him the power to judge all men and reward the faithful with eternal life. This man does not judge through his own eyes and ears but through the Spirit of God that is upon him, just as was prophesied unto the son of Jesse.

     

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