John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,161 through 20,180 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863044
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:Gene, you are not a son from God by reproductive process, you are from dirt, we all are. There is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. If you were a son like Jesus, he would not be an only begotten son.

    ME: Jesus of Nazareth was the only mortal man begotten of God’s Spirit, who was then SENT to set us at liberty.

    Now he is to be believed as the first begotten of the dead, the firstborn of many brethren, a ruler over the kings of the earth, where he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh where he is a Son according to the Spirit.

    LU, Jesus is a HUMAN BEING that was raised up given the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit, the mercies of David where YHWH made him lord and Christ, and a king eternally.

    Psalm 110:1 YHWH SAID unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; …9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people..

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    LU, Jesus is not YHWH, he is the son of David who YHWH made into a lord, he is a human being that sits at God’s right hand as a first begotten of the dead.

    In Psalms 110 YHWH is speaking of the rod of Jesse who is JESUS. You are told elsewhere that YHWH is ONE, there is no one else besides HIM.

    David does not think that his son, who YHWH promised to make him into His own Son, is YHWH. David believes that Jesus is of the fruit of his loins and will sit on his old throne according to the flesh for all eternity, being a Son of God according to God’s anointing Spirit. 

     

    #863060
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi jodi

    Jesus said very clearly in John 6:

    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not put out anyone who comes to me;

    6:38 for I came down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Verse 38 TELLS US VERY CLEARLY THAT JESUS CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…..
    It is in the past time: I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…

    God bless

    #863063
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Jesus said he was the Son of Man who has COME to save that which was lost.

    You are told that of the seed of David God raised up according to a PROMISE a savior, Jesus.

    Scripture says Christ hadn’t COME UNTIL AFTER John was baptizing.

    Jesus tells us exactly WHEN he was SENTwhich just so happens to be AFTER John was baptizing, and Jesus tells us exactly what he was SENT for, which included for him to PREACH God’s word. An anointed man was SENT to do the WORK of GOD. 

    Read what we learn in John 3, keeping in mind that Jesus IS the Son of Man who has come.

    He whom God has SENT speaks the word of God for God has given him the Spirit not by measure

    A MAN can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven, meaning FROM GOD.

    The Spirit came from heaven/from God resting upon the Son of Man. 

    He who cometh AFTER John, cometh from above/from God.

    He that is of the earth, is earthly, and speaks earthly things.

    He that cometh from heaven/from God is above all, and he speaks heavenly things BECAUSE he received the Spirit from heaven/from God. 

    Now recall the PROMISE of God, His word said that He would raise up a prophet from AMONG BRETHREN like Moses, and God would put His words in his mouth and those who believed in him would be saved. 

    The Son who the Father loves, is the Son of Man who was begotten by God’s Spirit not by measure who THEN GOD SENT out into the world. He came down from heaven, which means he came from God.

    The people who received Jesus and his testimony, were receiving that which was given to them from heaven/from God.

    BEREAN, just a few more things!!

    God promised David’s son that He would be a Father unto his son, this son of David would be a saviorBelow we read the Son brings forth eternal life.

    Jesus IS God’s Son according to a promise. Jesus is God’s Son for having been begotten by God’s Spirit without measure. 

    This son of David was also promised by God to receive dominion over all the works of God’s hands, of which we read below. This son of David holds dominion sitting on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead.

    26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent  speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    #863066
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..they just do not get it. It simply has not been given them to understand, or they would clearly see. I took LU’s own words and applied what she said to us also, and what is her answer?, but was her conclusion ?, it  applies to Jesus, but not us also.  These people haven’t a clue what they are saying. The hundreds if not thousands of scriptures we have over and over shown them, the still can not see no understand them. This only prove what scripture say, “unless the LORD builds the house the weary builders build in vain”.

    Your doing a fine Job Jodi, my God continue to bless you and keep you.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #863068
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene and Jodi,

    When Jesus says, while on earth:
    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    It’s the TRUTH, IT COMES FROM HEAVEN
    AND WHEN JESUS SAYS :
    62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

    WHERE WAS JESUS BEFORE COMING ON EARTH ???

    IN HEAVEN WITH THE FATHER AND GOOD ANGELS

    Ephesians 4:10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

    Don’t run away from the simple Truth, be like little children
    Believe what Jesus said;

    God bless

     

     

    #863069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    What Jesus had within him before he became flesh and dwelt among us and even before anything was made in heaven or on earth, is illustrated in the analogy of the closed mitosis diagram. Man is not a continuation of that process. The only begotten Son of God who was born BEFORE creation and WHO made all things in heaven and on earth BEFORE he formed man out of dirt, then made man, that is what the analogy represents.  The only begotten Son of God inherits the eternal essence (past) that existed in the fullness of God before the begetting. Never was there a time that the Son did not have that eternal essence. That eternal (past) nature from the One original living being goes through the asexual reproductive process and is therefore expressed within the Father AND the Son who are together, the fullness of God, not separately, and who never had a beginning to their essence, eternally existed. Look at the diagram that I put up and just dwell on that for a while till you get it.

    Adam was not a continuation of that asexual reproductive process, btw. Adam was not born. He began as an adult human being with a beginning to his essence. For humans that did not pre-exist before their conception in their mother’s womb (which is every human aside from Jesus), in order for them to inherit eternal life, they must believe in and confess that Jesus is LORD (YHWH) of their life as in YHWH, the Lord of lords. That is something that you deny. Your false doctrine does not accept Jesus as the Son of God, a true divinely-biological son who contains the eternal essence of the fullness of God just as his Father does.

    Philippians 2:10

    That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, 11And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH* to the glory of God his Father.

    Hopeful, LU

    #863070
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You said to Gene:

    Jesus is called “THE WORD OF GOD” because IT IS FROM THE BEGINNING HE WHICH PRONOUNCES THE CREATIVE WORDS.
    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”
    he is the FATHER’S CREATING AGENT.

    I have a different understanding of who said “let there be Light” on day one. I believe that it was the Father announcing the begetting of the Son who is the “firstborn over all creation.” The Son is after all, the Light of the world. I do not believe the begetting is the beginning of the Son’s existence since I believe the Son eternally existed in essence as well as the Father and I know you realize this.

    I do agree that the Son is the Father’s skilled worker making all things in heaven and on earth. The only thing “created” on day one was time and possibly the kingdom of darkness. I don’t believe that light was created on day one but it was begotten and announced. The Light of God and the kingdom of Light has always existed.

    God bless, LU

    #863071
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said:

    Jesus of Nazareth was the only mortal man begotten of God’s Spirit, who was then SENT to set us at liberty.

    Can you show me the phrase “begotten of God’s Spirit” anywhere in the scriptures…anywhere?

    Hopeful, LU

    #863072
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    You said to Gene:

    Philippians 2:10
    That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, 11And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH* to the glory of God his Father.

    ME: LU you deny some very clear basic stuff, and go off on a theory not only not substantiated at all in scripture but is absolutely against scripture. The passage below says lord not lord Jehovah -you added that in.

    Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 

    Acts 2 below quotes Psalms 110 “1 YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 

    the rod is identified as Jesse’s son, the father of David.

    The lord (master) in Psalms 110 is not YHWH, he is a servant who sits at YHWH’s right hand. YHWH saysthere is none else, there is no God beside me…there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else. 

    You are in total denial of what Acts 2 tells you

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that SAME JESUS, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    LU, who Jesus is and is not is made clear in the above as well as confirmed here below,

    Romans 1: 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, which He had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, ACCORDING TO the Spirit of holiness, BY THE resurrection from the dead:

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

    There is NO begotten Son as to what you speak LU, you just flat out ignore scripture.

    Jesus is NOW a first begotten of the dead, said to be made of the root and offspring of David and declared to be God’s Son according to the Spirit of holiness. 

    #863074
    Berean
    Participant

    hi LU

    ALL THINGS were made BY HIM; and WITHOUT HIM was not ANY THING  made that was made.

    On our earth, in the beginning, there was no
    of light and God through THE WORD CREATED THE LIGHT
    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD…

    HIS TIME BEGINS AS IT BECOMES A SON
    Just as the time of a human son begins when
    IT IS BORN IN THIS WORLD
    BUT HIS NATURE IS WITHOUT BEGINNING ….

    THE SON WAS BORN ON THE DAYS OF ETERNITY PAST
    AND WE DON’T KNOW HOW TO MEASURE THIS TIME …

    SILENCE

    BLESSINGS

     

     

    #863075
    Berean
    Participant

     

    ABOVE ALL (Song)

    God bless

    #863083
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You don’t believe that life begins at conception for humans?

    LU

    #863085
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: The passage below says lord not lord Jehovah -you added that in.

    That is how it is written in the Aramaic Bible.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    Phil 2:10

    9Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names, 10That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, 11And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH* to the glory of God his Father.

    https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/philippians/2.htm

    #863087
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What a screw up that is because the word is simply ‘kyrios’.

    So if we say ‘kyrios’ means ‘THE LORD JEHOVAH’, then Matthew 18:26-27 says this:

    So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And THE LORD JEHOVAH of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

    But what it actually says is this:

    So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

    Of course this is but one example as the word ‘kyrios’ references many men throughout the New Testament. Thus there would be many men who are also THE LORD JEHOVAH.

    And given that other translations translate it simply as ‘lord’, then this is a fail.

    #863088
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    This is how Matt 18:26-27 is translated by the same Bible translation.

    26And falling down, that servant worshiped him, and he said, “My Lord, be patient with me, and I shall pay you everything.” 27And the lord of that servant was moved with pity, and he released him, forgiving his debt.

    https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/matthew/18.htm

    The Aramaic word is different so therefore it is translated different.

    #863089
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    You are also in denial of this one:

    1 Cor 8:6

    6To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.

    https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_corinthians/8.htm

    #863098
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m not buying it

    All these instances cannot be referring to Yahweh of the Old Testament, and I doubt that any of them are. There is one God and the one between man and God. There is God and creation and between that is the Word. There is God and he created all things through Jesus Christ. We shouldn’t deny the uniqueness of the son of God, the only begotten. Some like to place him as God and some as a mere man. Both are wrong. He is uniquely between God and creation. He is the perfect vessel to also redeem creation back to God because of his position. God is too holy to fellowship with sin and God is not a man. But the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The agent by which God created the universe is also the agent by which God redeems creation.

    Kyrios

    #863102
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  The virgin birth was NOT a sign so that we would turn and equate Jesus to the likes of a PAGAN DEMIGOD.

    The virgin birth was indeed a sign given by God through Isaiah.  If Jesus being born on earth by a virgin mother who had never had sex makes YOU equate Jesus with a pagan demigod, then that is on you.  All I can do is preach what the scriptures actually say.  And those scriptures say that Jesus was mothered by Mary, and fathered by the Holy Spirit… not Joseph.

    I’m way behind in the thread, but I’ll search to see if you’ve answered how Jesus himself could say that HE kept on having glory with/of/alongside God before the world began.

    #863103
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Try it this way…

    16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (GENNAO) Jesus, who is called Christ.

    You place emphasis on Jesus being born of Joseph.  In reality, it says that Joseph was the husband of Mary…  of whom Jesus was born.

    Get it?  Jesus was born of Mary… who had as her husband Joseph.  Not Jesus was born of Joseph.

    It was SUPPOSED that Jesus was the son of Joseph, remember?

    #863104
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….. Jesus is not God the Fathers word…

    No, Jesus is not any particular literal word that God speaks, or has spoken.  He has as one of his many titles “The Word of God” because he is God’s main spokesman.  He had this title when he was with God in the beginning, when he was on earth for 33 years, and when he returns on the white horse in the future.

    Remember that the King of Abyssinia’s spokesman was called “The Word of the King”.  This person wasn’t an actual word that the king spoke.  He had the title “The Word of the King” because he was the king’s spokesman.  It is the same with Jesus.

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