John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,141 through 20,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #863002
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Jesus comes from heaven: THE PLACE where God the Father is found
    and the holy angels.
    When he became a man, he lived in accordance with the will of his Father who is in heaven and it is ALSO THAT be of HEAVEN and not of the WORLD;

    #863003
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    YOU: Who is the oldest, the Father or the Son, or are they exactly the same age?

    ME: NONE

    Read again the

    PURE TRUTH:

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS A SPIRIT BEING

    ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER

    ONE SUBSTANCE and in the same instance DISTINCT as the case may be in relation to

    GOD’S OWN WILL!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863004
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Jodi

    YOU:Why do you suppose that the Kingdom OF Heaven and the Kingdom OF God,

    MEAN the SAME THING?

    ME: NO JODI

    NOT THE SAME THING!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863005
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    Jesus said very clearly in John :

    6:38 for I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

    and

    6:62 [62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up  WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

    #863014
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    You asked who is the oldest, the father or the son or are they exactly the same age. I think this diagram will help:

    If you look at the “closed mitosis,” we see one side giving part of itself to the other side. The side that gave would be the father to the side that receives, i.e. the son. The thing is, the first stage carries all the substance in one organism that ends up in two organisms, therefore, the substance in both is the same substance that was in the original. The original organism doesn’t become a father until it gives of itself and at that moment it gives of itself, it also becomes a son at the receiving end. The original becomes both a father and a son at the same exact time and both contain the same aged substance, eternal substance in the case of an eternal original organism. The Father is the giver, the Son is the receiver. The Father “grants” the Son to have eternal life within himself.

    John 5:26

    Just as the Father has life in himself, so also he has granted the Son to have life in himself,

    I really hope that diagram helps you see how one eternal being, going through the process of begetting, becomes father and son at the same moment. The Father is the giver of eternal essence, the Son is the receiver of eternal essence. Both would be eternal in essence yet distinct in roles as giver and receiver. Their attributes are the same, their type is the same, their age is the same, their roles are different.

    Blessings,

    LU

    #863015
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……what is a word,  ….”intellegent utterance”.  JOHN 1:1…. In the beginning was,  “intellegent utterance,”  and intellegent utterance was with God, and “intellegent utterance”  was God. 

    Words are SPIRIT, and what expresses “LIFE”. 

    Nothing complicated about it, only “mystery religion”, wants to complicate it, and use it to confuse others.

    God the “Only” God, expressed his will with words, and “His” power brought it about. 

    Peace and love to you all and yours. …….gene

     

    #863016
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu….Seening that your cell division theory applies to Jesus,  right?,  then it also must equally apply to all who have his (God’s)  seed of life in them also.  So how is Jesus any different then us all who have his Spirit (seed) in us.  So according to your reasoning , why should we “worship” Jesus as a God and not ourselves also?  Seening we also have his seed (Spirit) in us too.  Your theory then makes us all the same as Jesus,  well he did say he was the first born of “many” brethern.  So Seening that we are “now” the sons of God, as scripture says,  should we all be worshiping each other as  God’s  also? , like you worship Jesus as your God, Seening in your genetic anology,  we are the exact same as Jesus is? 

    I personally do not worship Jesus as my God or any God of any kind. I see Jesus as my brother in the family of “our” God, both his and my GOD , his Father and my Father .  I am equal with Jesus in the worship of the “only” true God, both his and mine. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #863017
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    What you say is wrong;
    The Bible says clearly that “THE WORD”is the NAME given to the Son of God who shed his blood for us;
    The Bible is explained by the Bible.
    19:13 and he was clothed in a garment stained with blood. His name is the Word of God.

    #863018
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. … no scripture says Jesus “is” the word of God,  it says he is “called” the word of God, as in a title.  That “title” is afforded  him because he speaks , “GOD’S WORD” to us, that God has told him to tell us.  why is that so hard for you to understand?

    We call a airplane a bird, but is it?, no,  but it flies in the air like a bird, but a plane is not a bird, nor a ship a women, even though we call it a she. Names can represent the character of a person, not the actual name applied to that character. Surely you know that right?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #863019
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene,

    Jesus is called “THE WORD OF GOD” because IT IS FROM THE BEGINNING HE WHICH PRONOUNCES THE CREATIVE WORDS.
    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”
    he is the FATHER’S CREATING AGENT.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made;
    Not only is he the divine creative agent of God, but HE IS THE ONE BY WHOM EVERYTHING REMAINS: HE GIVES LIFE

    Paul to the Colossians is very clear
    1: [17] And he is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST .

    Hebrews 1: 3
    … and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER,

    THIS IS TRUE FOR ALL THAT IS CREATED

    IT IS HE WHO SUPPORTS OUR LIFE.

    SPIRITUAL LIFE IS BY FAITH IN HIS WORD.

    #863020
    Berean
    Participant

    I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.(Philippians 4:13)

    #863022
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Seriously Berean, am I suppose to believe that this voice from heaven is Jesus speaking to himself?

    ME:  Seriously I believe that that voice from heaven is God almighty speaking to Himself

    AS MAN IN JESUS!

    Does that satisfy you enough?

    Explain how God could be physically present on earth Jodi, in order to be accepted that 

    HE IS THE TRUE GOD?

    1 John 5:20 And we know that

    the Son of God is come.

    And he hath given us understanding that we may know

    the true God

    and may be in

    his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    SINCE THERE’S NO OTHER TRUE WAY FOR GOD THE FATHER TO BE 

    EVER PHYSICALLY ON EARTH. 

    Jesus Christ is the 

    TRUE GOD ON EARTH

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #863025
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Clearly, the Father is speaking to the son. They are two. God and his son. Simple. The term Son of God has the word ‘of’. When you are ‘of’ something, then you are not the thing you are of. Basic language skills is all you need to understand that.

    #863026
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene, you are not a son from God by reproductive process, you are from dirt, we all are. There is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. If you were a son like Jesus, he would not be an only begotten son.

    #863027
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8, Look carefully at my last post on page 684. That should help you see how one is of the other yet both share the same substance.

    LU

    #863028
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Your DENIAL is going to cause you to DENY the Son of Man when

    he returns in his glory

    ME: wrong Read:

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man

    shall come in

    the glory of his Father

    with HIS angels: (THOSE ANGELS WHO CAME ON EARTH LIKE HIM) and then will he render to

    every man according to his works.

    The above IS a reference to Himself, NOT to GOD THE FATHER,

    HIS PARTICULAR FATHER, IN FLESH, GOD THE FATHER IS SPIRIT, CANNOT BE PRESENT! JOHN 20:17  the fact that

    IT IS THE SON OF MAN, WHO COMES!

    John 5:27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is

    THE SON OF MAN (The Father is not in the position to judge the FLESH SINCE JESUS BECAME MAN, LIVED AND DIED IN THE FLESH AND BECAME FATHER OF IT. John17:2)

    John 17:24 Father, I will that where I am, (ANSWER JODI: WHERE IS JESUS, since he said:

    THAT WHERE I AM

    they also whom thou hast given me (BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD) may be with me:

    that they may see my glory which thou hast given me,(BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD)

    because thou hast loved me

    before the creation of the world.

    Jodi, Jesus was given the apostles before the creation of the world, when they were SPIRIT BEINGS! ANGELS! READ:

    John17:I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. (ANGELS LOYAL TO GOD)

    THINE THEY WERE( SPIRIT BEINGS): and to me thou gavest them.( HUMANS IN FLESH)

    And they have kept thy word. ( JESUS) ( BOTH WHEN THEY WERE ANGELS, NEVER REBELLED, AND AS HUMANS ACCEPTED JESUS, “THE WORD”)

    7Now they have known that all things which thou hast given me (BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD) are from thee: ( ACCEPTED JESUS’COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHING; MOSES’ COMMAND)

    8Because the words (PLURAL: THE TEACHING/COMMANDMENTS) which thou gavest me, I have given to them. And they have received them and have known in very deed that I came out from thee: (ACCEPTED JESUS AS “THE WORD” who was within their heart unknown as angels) and they have believed that thou didst send me. ( ACCEPTED JESUS AS THE MESSIAH)

    9I pray for them. I pray not for the world,( OBVIOUS HE WON THE WORLD)  but for them whom thou hast given me: (before the creation of the world WHEN THEY WERE ANGELS; JESUS CHOSE THEM HIMSELF IN ORDER TO ACCEPT HIM) because they are thine. (SPIRIT/ANGELS) 10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. ( THEY WERE SPIRIT BEINGS, BECAME HUMANS, AND THE PROPERTY OF JESUS FOR HIS KINGDOM AS CHILDREN OF GOD, IN ONE SAME FATHER, ONE SAME BLOOD, ONE SAME SPIRIT

    THE SPIRIT OF THE SON)

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me:

    BECAUSE I LIVE(IN YOU, REMOVED SATAN FROM THEIR HEART AND IN THE POSITION TO SEE JESUS),

    ye shall live also.( IN ME) Well asserted in

    John 15:4 Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    NOT WITHOUT THE FATHER, BUT 

    WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH/HUMAN!

    MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY:

    THE TRUTH

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863029
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    YOU:Clearly, the Father is speaking to the son.

    They are two. God and his son.

    ME: NO, THAT’S CARNAL CORRUPTED UNDERSTANDING! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    THEY ARE TWO AND IN THE SAME INSTANT 

    ONE in every sense:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    YOU: Simple. The term Son of God has the word ‘of’. When you are

    ‘of’ something, then you are not the thing you are of.

    Basic language skills is all you need to understand that.

    No, again CARNAL REASONING IS NOT 

    DIVINE REASONING 

    YOU:

    When you are of’ something,

    ME: JESUS THE SON OF MAN IS “THE WORD”  OF GOD, SPIRIT!

    then you are not the thing you are of.

     ME: JESUS THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD”,  IS GOD IN FLESH!

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN IS GLORIFIED BOTH

    SPIRIT in the Holy Ghost, IN JESUS’SOUL,  THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE and 

    FLESH in “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, UNITED INTO ONE SUBSTANCE IN

    JESUS CHRIST 

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH

    NOW REGARDING THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’ SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE READ:

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which

    THE HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased

    WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

    T8, HOW COME THE HOLY GHOST HAS BLOOD?

    OBVIOUS BECAUSE HE THE SON OF GOD, BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN!

    This is also well clear in

    John 5:25 Amen, amen, I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of

    the Son of God:( the Holy Ghost, the voice of God, who spoke to the prophets)

    and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to

    THE SON

    also to have life in himself. 27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is

    the Son of man ( “THE WORD” of God spoken, of the Holy Ghost,)

    the fact that He was born of 

    the Holy Ghost

    Be aware that the above is a reference to

    THE SON!

    THE SPIRIT OF THE SON

    Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent

    the Spirit of his Son

    into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. 7Therefore, now

    he is not a servant,

    but a son.

    And if a son, an heir also through God.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863039
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I have been reading scripture so far all day, since 5:00 this morning reading John 6 and many other verses that directly apply.

    Let’s LOOK at John 6 and the IDENTITY given of Jesus,

    John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. 15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

    He is the promised prophet that would come, a prophet raised up from brethren where God would put His words into his mouth, and those who would hear him would see salvation.

    Such is God’s word made true in the flesh of Jesus.

    He is seen as the promised king, the son of David, a ruler that God promised from ancient of days that would come out from the tribe of Judah having an everlasting throne.

    26 Jesus answered them and said,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    The identity of Jesus is that of a Son of Man who our Father from heaven sealed.

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 

    Once again this is direct reference to the prophet that God promised to raise up from among brethren, where God would put His words into his mouth and people would hear and believe the words of God that he spoke. John in chapter 3 tells us that he speaks the WORD of God for he received the Spirit not by measure.

    Luke 4 tells us that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing, TO be SENT out, TO PREACH God’s word, this is a prophecy (Isaiah 61) unto the son of Jesse made true in the man of flesh Jesus.

    If you don’t apply Christ as the anointed Jesus from the river Jordan who was then sent, you will read passages with blind eyes and miss totally the message of the Gospel, the good news of Christ. 

    John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my FATHER GIVETH you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 

    Reading this again I realized it’s speaking of the second comingJesus gives us our eternal life when God sends him down from heaven and he rewards every man for his works. 

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 

    John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

    In the wilderness the people ate the bread, food to keep them living.

    Jesus says that the Father gives us the TRUE BREAD FROM heaven.

    We were ALL MADE to DRINK into that SAME ONE SPIRIT (1 Cor 12:13).

    By ONE SPIRIT we are all baptized (cleansed by water) into ONE BODY. (1 Cor 12:13)

    WE ARE ONE BREAD ONE BODY, unified in the body of Christ (the body of Christ, is the son of Jesse who was baptized and given the full measure of God’s Spirit (THE ONE SPIRIT), a calling to righteousness where God directs all his ways) (1 Corinthians 10:17)

    John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Now read below, you have the water, the Spirit, and the kingdom.

    Ezekiel 36: 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Jesus says that the bread of life is his FLESH, which is his anointed BODY, baptized and given of the full measure of the Spirit where God causes him to walk in all His ways. He is raised receiving the promised ONE SPIRIT for all eternity. 

    The Son of Man (bread from heaven) is to come down from heaven and give us of the ONE SPIRIT, where we are unified in the body of Christ (full anointing of the Spirit). ONE SPIRIT, ONE BREAD which is ONE BODY unto God who worketh ALL IN ALL 1 (Corinthians 12:6).

    We were ALL MADE to DRINK into that SAME ONE SPIRIT (1 Cor 12:13)

    This was purposed by our heavenly Father before the world began.

    Jesus is the man ordained by God to judge (Acts 17:31), and those worthy “he will give us of the water to drink which is a well that springs up into everlasting life” (John 4:13).

    #863040
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    To continue John 6, the context of Jesus coming down from heaven to give us life, is his second coming.

    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I “come down” from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Come -Katabaino  COME DOWN, DESCEND

    39 And this is the Father’s will which “sends” me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that “sends”me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Sends – pempo -send

    Recall, it is the Son of Man who is returning in the glory of our Father, coming down from heaven to judge and to raise people from the dead giving them life.  

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I “come down” from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which “cometh down” from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    The Son of Man gives that life when he comes down from heaven in the glory of our Father, where he is of the ONE Spirit and brings us into the body giving us of the ONE Spirit, the glory of our Father.

    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father “sends” me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    Sends – Apostello, send, send forth

    58 This is that bread which “cometh down” from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    Berean, verse 62 is talking about the SON OF MAN, he DIES and the Spirit gives him life again “quickeneth” (produce alive). He was on earth, he died, and he ascended/raised up to life on earth again!

    #863042
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Jesus is God’s WORD spoken by the prophets made true in the flesh (his birth, his anointing, his sending, his death, his resurrection, his return, his kingdom).

    Jesus speaks to us God’s WORD (that which was made true in him spoken by the prophets he speaks of it, that which was going to be made true in him he speaks of it, he speaks of our resurrection and what is needed to obtain eternal life, he speaks of our kingdom of God, he speaks prophecy of end times).

    Jesus fulfills God’s WORD (he goes where God wants him to go, he says what God wants him to say, he performs signs, miracles, and wonders that God wants him to do, he goes to the cross as God commands him to, he will return to earth and continue obeying all of God’s commands).

    John 1-2: That which was from the BEGINNING, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning THE WORD of lifethe life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which WAS WITH the Father and was made manifest to us. 

    Jesus was raised firstborn of many brethren from the dead having been raised up receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit and eternal life.

    Through him we know that God’s WORD declared before the world began, Eternal Life, is true.

    People were witness to the WORD OF LIFE, it was made true in the flesh of Jesus. They saw the LIFE, they touched the life, and were told the WORD that this LIFE is to be their life. 

    In the beginning was the WORD of LIFE, and the WORD of LIFE was with the Father, and the WORD was the Father.

    In the beginning was ALSO the WORD that a man would come and execute God’s purpose, that purpose was for him to be the WORD of LIFE made TRUE in him, so that people would believe in God’s WORD of ETERNAL LIFE.

     

     

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