John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,181 through 20,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863105
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    Or…

    Mighty God – EL, god, god-like one, mighty one
    mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes

    😉

    #863106
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4. What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them? What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?

    LU: YHWH , the One God manifests Himself in two persons, the Father and the Son. The Son is the servant of the Father and not the other way around.

    Which one of them created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… according to the apostles who prayed in Acts 4?

    #863107
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  …Jesus is called Lord and also Jehovah as seen at times.

    I don’t think so.  Certainly not in the scripture you posted.  The angel in the burning bush was called “YHWH” by Moses.  Maybe Jesus was the angel of YHWH in the bush?  I think there are one or two other scriptures in which one of God’s spirit representatives were addressed as “YHWH”… but none of them give any clear indication that Jesus was God’s representative in any of those cases.

    #863108
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  My last post did that strange disappearing act and while it is fresh on my mind, I will tell you what happened:

    I wrote the post, hit “submit”, wanted to edit it slightly, hit “edit”, edited it, hit “submit,” then the post did not show up on the thread but did show up on my profile in the unedited version. You can probably go to my profile and see the two very similar posts. I then copied my post from my profile section, pasted it over here, made my corrections, then hit “submit” and it went through. I hope that helps you figure this out.

    Still screwing up for me.  I hit Submit, and it takes me to a blank comment page… not to the page of the thread with my submitted post.  So I’ve just been arrowing back and continuing on with the next one – not knowing if the previous one actually posted to the thread or not.

    #863109
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    For example, this is where it takes me when I hit Submit…

    Screenshot (155)

    #863110
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi: Good work Berean,

    What the parent is, so is the offspring. They carry the same eternal substance and are the same type and have the same abilities.

    God is the “parent” of many sons… some of them spirit, some of them flesh.  God is spirit, and so yes, Jesus was also begotten as spirit.  As for eternality, that is pure speculation on your part.  In Psalm 82 (I believe), God tells some of His spirit sons that he created them immortal… but they would die like mortal men.  Also, Jesus died.  On the other hand, I’m pretty sure the Father cannot die.  So God’s spirit sons (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal” in the same sense that their Creator is eternal.  Their lives can go on forever if God chooses… or God can end their lives at any time He wants.

    #863112
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed:  assumption upon assumption upon assumption T8

    As Q often asks… How many coincidences before it’s mathematically impossible?    Come on, Eddy…  clearly the Word who was with THE God in the beginning is the same Word who was made flesh and dwelt on earth with the name Jesus.

    I haven’t seen an answer from Jodi on this yet, so I’ll ask you:  In John 17:5, Jesus asks his and our God to glorify him with the glory HE had with God before the world began.  How could Jesus speak of a glory he himself HAD before the world began?

    #863113
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    That’s a good translation.  God spoke the world into creation.  None of the particular words God spoke then – or any time since – are a living entity.  On the other hand, Jesus’s title “The Word of God” means he is God’s spokesman – not to be confused with any literal word God spoke.

    The King of ancient Abyssinia had a spokesman called “The Word of the King”.  The spokesman was not a literal word the king spoke – but a living person.  BUT… it could also have been written, for example, that, “At the word of the King, our taxes are going up.”   In that context, “the word of the King” is the COMMAND of the King – as in the Weymouth Translation above.  And nobody would confuse that use of “the word of the King” with somebody saying he seeks an audience with “The Word of the King” to resolve some issue.

    Understand?  Two exact word phrases… one referring to a COMMAND the King gave – and the other one referring to a PERSON who had the title “The Word of the King” because he was the king’s spokesman.

     

    #863115
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  The end result after asexual reproduction is two identical organisms with substance that is the same age in each. The difference, one beget the other which makes the begetter greater to the begotten. The one who beget is the Father, the one begotten is the son, the Firstborn of God over all creation who is the exact representation of his Father.

    The end result is that one was in existence before the other, and that the latter owes his very existence to an action taken by the former.  Almost like a dad who exists first, and then creates a son who has a lot (but not all) of the qualities of the father who brought him forth into existence.  😉

    You can imagine that they have the exact same substance, or that the latter was already a sentient being existing inside the former before the former brought the latter forth into his own existence.  But this entire cell philosophy is an exercise in futility, because there is nothing in scripture that even hints at such a thing.  Rather, scripture teaches many times that there is one Creator God, and Jesus is His first creation.

    But you do you, Kathi.  😎

    #863116
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Hi Jodi

    Try to be shorter
    and just answer the question we ask you. ..

    Hi Jodi, it’s abundantly clear that you are a very sharp person, and that you’ve forgotten more about scripture than 99% of people will ever learn.  But I have to agree with Berean here.  I’m trying to discuss Jesus with you, but I just don’t have the time to read those novels you post!  😁  I realize that you think there are 100 verses that support your position… but you don’t have to include them all at once.  Maybe you could pick just one verse (like I did with John 17:5), and let’s analyze it to see if it really does teach what you (or I) think it does.  Then we can move on to another single verse, etc.  Cheers.

    #863117
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi:  Happy Resurrection Day everybody, enjoy this song, a favorite of mine, that I want to share with you all.

    Nice.  Thanks. 😊

    #863118
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    You

    You don’t believe that life begins at conception for humans?

    Me

    if I believe
    But the life of a human being really begins when he comes out of his mother’s womb … and we start counting his days from there, isn’t it;
    So the only begotten Son of God has a beginning in eternity when He came out of the Father.
    He is a true Son because he was born of the Father, of the Father’s substance;
    And the Son heard these wonderful words from the Father:
    Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, I will be a Father for you, and you will be to me a Son?
    Before to be begotten, he was not a son; God was alone;
    God is love

    silence

    blessings

    #863124
    Jodi
    Participant

    HI LU,

    YOU:

    That is how it is written in the Aramaic Bible.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    ME: So I looked up information on the translation of this bible and it’s translator and what original text he was translating to English was.

    The bible translation you gave is from George M. Lamsa published in 1933

    The original text is known as the Peshitta, and it seems quite clear that in the Peshitta there is NO “Jehovah” that comes after Jesus Christ is Lord in Phil 2:11, Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology.

    Reason 1. James Murdock also translated the NT Peshitta into English in 1851 and his translation is rendered with NO “Jehovah”, “11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord, to the glory of God his Father.”

    aramaicnewtestament.org uses his translation

    Reason 2. William Norton also translated the NT Peshitta into English in 1889, and his translation is rendered with NO “Jehovah”, “11 and that every tongue should own that Jesus the anointed is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    Reason 3. John Etheridge Peshitta-Aramaic NT (1849), also NO Jehovah
    “and that every tongue should confess that Jeshu the Meshiha is the Lord, to the glory of Aloha his Father.”

    Reason 4. The Way International,  a Christian organization who believe Jesus did not pre-exist, also translated the Peshitta into English a 15 year project,  – Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament. I can’t find their translation free online, but I’d imagine they wouldn’t believe the Peshitta was God’s true word, or they wouldn’t have a doctrine that Jesus didn’t pre-exist if the Peshitta text said Jesus Christ was lord Jehovah.

     

    #863125
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I’ll say it again, Jehovah says Himself that there is none besides Him, no other God but Him, He forms the light.

    David speaks saying, “1 Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 Jehovah shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    Jehovah, who forms the light, where there is no one besides HIM, He calls the rod of Jesse to righteousness where Jehovah will hold his hand and keep him to fulfill Jehovah’s covenant and have him be for a light to Israel and the Gentiles.

    We read that it IS A SON OF MAN SPECIFICALLY that is exalted to sit at Jehovah’s right hand

    We read specifically God MAKES Jesus both Lord and Christ.

    We read specifically that it is A SON OF MAN returning in the glory of his Father.

    We read specifically Jesus say that his God is our God and his Father is our Father. 

    We read specifically that, “But to us there is but one God, the Father”.

    LU, Jesus is NOT Jehovah, he IS a MAN who is our savior to the glory of our ONE God, the Father Jehovah

    #863135
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: On the other hand, I’m pretty sure the Father cannot die. 

    ME: THE FACT THAT GOD THE FATHER

    IS NOT OUR REDEEMER.

    UNLESS ONE ACCEPTS THAT JESUS IS 

    GOD

    WHERE THE FATHER CANNOT, and ISN’T ESPECIALLY 

    AS MAN and ON JESUS’ DEATH!

    It is the Father’s plan that HE DIES IN HIS OWN SUBSTANCE  IN JESUS’ EMBODIMENT! Well clear in

    Isaiah 42:1Behold my servant, (GOD’S SUBSTANCE! Hebrews1:3the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance …)

    I will uphold him: ( ETERNALLY  IN GOD’S FULL POWER, John16:32…….And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. )

    my elect, ( THE SON: ETERNALLY THE POWER and WISDOM OF GOD, 1Corinthians 24…. Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.)

    my soul delighteth in him: ( THE FATHER  and THE HOLY GHOST eternally ABIDE IN “THE WORD” 1 John 5:7 )

    I have given my spirit upon him,( ETERNALLY THE FATHER IN THE SON, John14:9-11..I am in the Father and the Father in me? …

     

    YOU: So God’s spirit sons (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal”

    ME ( Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc. ARE ALL IN THE SON, ALL IN HIM John 1:3,  and ONLY THE SON  REVEALS THE FATHER! 

    Luke 10:22 All things (Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.)

    are delivered, to me by my Father.(TO BE  SUSTAINED BY JESUS, COLOSSIANS 1:15-20, John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man(Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.)cometh to the Father, but by me.)

    And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and to whom

    the Son(JESUS) will reveal him.( IN HIS EMBODIMENT)

    NOT, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.

     

    YOU: (Jesus, Satan, Michael, Molech, Gabriel, etc.) are not “eternal” in the same sense that their Creator is eternal.

    ME: THE FATHER IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE

    WITHOUT THE SON, ETERNAL LIFE!

    John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have

    life in himself. (eternal)

    John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    THE FATHER CANNOT

    EVEN

    CREATE WITHOUT JESUS “THE WORD”

    THE UNIQUE SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, the shield, the protector, no matter whom,

    BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES.

    YOU: Their lives can go on forever if God chooses… or God can end their lives at any time He wants.

    ME: Mike that is CORRUPTED CARNAL MINDED REASONING and MENTALITY! WITH EVERY RESPECT.

    GOD IS LOVE, CHARITY, HUMILITY ETC..

    THERE’S NO SUCH THING THAT  GOD DESTROYS TOTALLY HIS CREATURES, AS IT IS A CLEAR WEAKNESS IN GOD WHO CREATED THEM, and NOT LOVE AT ALL.  ALL SPIRITS THAT CAME OUT FROM GOD

    MUST RETURN TO GOD and GLORIFIED!   NO MATTER WHOM.

    OUR CORRUPTED FLESH BODY ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WOULD BE GLORIFIED!

    IT IS ALREADY IN HEAVEN EMBODIED IN

    JESUS CHRIST!

    1 PETER 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy

    hath regenerated us

    unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:

     4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 

    5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

     

    THE FACT THAT GOD ALLOWED THE VERY FIRST SIN OF THE REBEL TO OCCUR. 

    IT IS GOD’S PLAN THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS BECOME CORRUPTED, SIMPLY AS THROUGH THEM AND IN THEM

    GOD’S GLORY OF LOVE WOULD BE REVEALED.

    Now that’s where “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit is VITAL as a spirit/mediator.

    “THE WORD” JESUS AS A SPIRIT, IS GOD’S OWN DIVINE ELEMENT BETWEEN THE FATHER’S SPIRIT ELEMENT AND THE CREATURES’SPIRIT ELEMENT, EVEN AS FLESH,

     

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual and more piercing than any two-edged sword;

    and reaching unto the division of

    the soul and the spirit, of (THE SPIRIT PROCESS)

    the joints also and the marrow: ( THE PHYSICAL PROCESS)

    and is a discerner of the thoughts and

    intents of the heart. 

    THE FACT THAT SATAN( AS A SPIRIT) EXISTS BY “THE WORD” JESUS  AND NEVER ENDS, AS JESUS, “THE WORD”  ETERNAL LIFE, A DIVINE ELEMENT IS IN HIM, PROTECTS HIM FROM THE FATHER, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB, TILL HE RETURNS TO THE FATHER, EVEN IF IT SEEMS A

    NEVER ENDING STORY!

    IT WOULD BE A SUICIDE IF THE FATHER DESTROYS HIS SON HIDDEN IN SATAN AND OTHER CREATURES AS SPIRITS,

    PLUS THAT GOD WOULD HAVE AN END AS WELL. 

    Luke 11:17…. Every kingdom

    divided against itself shall be brought to desolation; and house upon house shall fall. 18And if Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand?…..

    OK Mike, EVERY KINGDOM, as clear as crystal

    EVEN GOD’S KINGDOM WOULD EVENTUALLY END

    IF IT IS DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF.

    NOW IN ORDER FOR GOD’S KINGDOM NOT TO BE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF AND EVENTUALLY FALLS

    GOD ENGRAFTED “THE WORD” JESUS, AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT

    ETERNALLY IN

    EVERY SPIRIT CREATURES’ HEART

    AS ETERNAL LIFE. 

    SIMPLY NOT TO DESTROY TOTALLY HIS OWN, GOD’S SPIRIT SUBSTANCE. 

    HIS SON.

    THE FACT THAT LUCIFER FINISHED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT, BUT GOD ESTABLISHED HIM AN ANGEL OF DARKNESS

    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light,(GOD IN “THE WORD” Jesus, as a spirit, THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER, THE LIGHT BEARER)  and create darkness, ( “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit in Satan) I make peace,( “THE WORD”JESUS’ FLESH CRUCIFIED) and create evil:(ALLOW SIN, SHIELDED BY “THE WORD” NOT TO BE TOTALLY DESTROYED BY GOD) I the Lord ( GODTHE WORD” JESUS) that do all these things.

    IN ORDER FOR SATAN A SPIRIT CREATURE TO RETURN TO THE FATHER. GOD KNOWS WHEN!

    Job20: 18He shall be punished for all that he did, and yet

    shall not be consumed:

    according to the multitude of his devices so also shall he suffer.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #863152
    Lightenup
    Participant
    #863156
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  The original text is known as the Peshitta, and it seems quite clear that in the Peshitta there is NO “Jehovah” that comes after Jesus Christ is Lord in Phil 2:11, Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology…

    Wow Jodi… great detective work!  Kudos. 👍

    #863157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: THE FATHER IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE WITHOUT THE SON, ETERNAL LIFE!

    John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have
    life in himself. (eternal)

    John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    THE FATHER CANNOT EVEN CREATE WITHOUT JESUS “THE WORD”

    Hi Carmel, I think you’ve got it twisted.  It is the Son who can do nothing without his and our God, the Father.  The Father doesn’t have that limitation.  Take a look at the prayer in Acts 4:24-30.  I’ll post just some parts here…

    Acts 4

    24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    27 …the people of Israel in this city conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

    30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    1. In verse 24, they pray to “God”.  They claim that the one to whom they prayed is the one who created everything.  Agreed?

    2. In verses 27 and 30, they identify Jesus – not as the one to whom they prayed or the one who created everything – but instead as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed… the holy servant OF the one who created everything.

    How do you reconcile this with your doctrine?  Same question for Kathi and Berean.

    #863160
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: Lamsa added it in based upon his own theology…

    I think you need to dig a little deeper than that.

    Again, look at this and you will see that there is sufficient reason to translate the original word in the Syriac text as “Lord Jehovah.” I know that it is a direct hit to your doctrine and hard to accept but you would do well to purchase the original text with the interlinear and see that the word translated as “Lord Jehovah” is found throughout the OT and the NT for the tetragrammaton, YHWH.

    http://aramaicnt.com/files/MarYah%20in%20Peshitta.pdf

    Hopeful, LU

    #863162
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Asexual reproduction is not a creation of something different, it is the reproduction of something the same.

    I agree that the relationship was created in a sense, but not the substance. What that means is the father relationship was created just as much as the son relationship was created. Before the process of begetting, there was no father, there was One who decided to give and at the same time, receive of himself to be no longer One but Two. The Two are different in that one gives and the other receives. The one that gives is the dominant one in the new relationship and thus the parent or Father in this case.

    You say that it has no scriptural support but the term “begotten” supports it, the eternalness of God supports it, the relationship of Father and Son supports it.

    I see the only begotten son of God and think of the son as one who is a divinely biological son of God. That is a true son, not a son of a different type.

    Here is my most recent diagram which illustrates this point:

    ClosedMitosisDiagram

    Hopeful, LU

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