John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,121 through 20,140 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862933
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    Do you accept scripture that tells you WHEN Jesus was ANOINTED and SENT?

    Do you accept the WORD was made true in the flesh of Jesus, Isaiah 61?

    Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me TO preach the gospel to the poor; HE HATH SENT ME TO heal the brokenhearted, TO preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, TO set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 TO preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Acts 10:37-39 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh (Isaiah 11, 42, 61), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached BEFORE HIS COMING the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    BEFORE HIS COMING BEREAN.

    Jesus was not SENT until after his baptism. Jesus was not SENT until he had been begotten of the Father’s Spirit, being filled with grace and truth. 

    Acts 1:21-22 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, BEGINNING from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

    Acts 4:26-28 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you ANOINTED, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 

    Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man IS COME to save that which was lost.

    Our heavenly Father SENT a Son of Man into the world to save the lost, not any Son of Man, the ROD of JESSE of whom our Father ANOINTED, begetting him of the fullness of His Spirit. This man was SENT TO do the Father’s work, he did all that our Father commanded of him, doing it all in our Father’s name, as the Father was with him, holding his hand and keeping him for to be a light, for to fulfill our Father’s covenant (Isaiah 42). 

    Isaiah tells us that first you have a man in the flesh, the son of Jesse, and THEN our Father rests His Spirit upon him, an anointing, and THEN SENDS him out into the world TO SET US AT LIBERTY, a Son of Man being SENT to save that which was lost, the only mortal man begotten of God’s Spirit filled with grace and truth. 

     

     

    #862937
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”

    ME: Jesus also taught that he is the Son of Man who is coming in his Father’s glory.

    Your not equal to someone when your glory comes from the glory of another and that others glory is all His own.

    You say the Son was in the form of God but gave it up to be in the likeness of a man, and then he returned to his previous glory.

    PROBLEM you have, the Son of God is still a human being, he is the root and offspring of David, and Paul tells us that our unity of faith is to believe that the Son of God is a perfect man.

    Also said is that Jesus Christ is the faithfull witness, the first begotten of the dead, and that the Son is a firstborn among many brethren. 

    LU, Jesus also said that he could do nothing of himself, this is still true when he returns, as it is the Spirit of the Father upon him where by he is able to judge and slay the wicked.

    The Father is perfect, the Son of God was MADE perfect learning obedience unto his Father, whereby that perfecting made him our source for eternal life.

    You are also told that according to a promise God raised up the seed of David for to be our savior.

    Jesus is our savior not through his will nor his power, but by his God and our God’s will and by his God and our God’s power. 

    THIS MAKES them FAR from equal. When one depends on the other for all things, that is not equality. 

     

    #862939
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi jodi

    you

    “Our Father PROMISED (GIVEN HIS WORD) to rest his Spirit on the son of Jesse, where this man would be sent to speak the WORD of our Father and do the WORK of our Father.”

    Me

    One thing you ignore is that THE WORD WAS GOD

    When God speaks, his word is not God …

    John tells us that: “AT THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD

    WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD ”

    I repeat it to you IN THE VERY HOLY DIVINITY ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD AND BE THE GOD, IT IS THE FATHER

    AND ONLY THE SON OF GOD NAMED “THE WORD” IN JOHN 1 IS GOD AND MAN.

    God bless

    #862941
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean….So you simply trash all the hundreds of scriptures to force your false assumptions, like 90 % of all Christanity does. Good luck with that your going to need it. But on thing for sure you and the others who go along with your teachings will be judged, for not applying all the scriptures me and Jodi have , “clearly” shown you all. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #862943
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You said …the Son of God is still a human being, he is the root and offspring of David

    As the root, he came before David as in the form of God, as the Son of God, who established the line of David.

    As the offspring, he came after David as in the form of man as the Son of Man.

    He was both, the Son of God AND the Son of Man. He wasn’t always and only the root of David and he wasn’t only the offspring of David.

    He was both, God as the Son of God, (the Lord of lords), and he also became human too and he will always be both natures, God and man forever.

     

     

     

     

    #862946
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Please describe the qualities of a firstborn lamb at passover.

    LU

    #862983
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi jodi

    you

    “Our Father PROMISED (GIVEN HIS WORD) to rest his Spirit on the son of Jesse, where this man would be sent to speak the WORD of our Father and do the WORK of our Father.”

    Me

    One thing you ignore is that THE WORD WAS GOD

    When God speaks, his word is not God …

    His word (Law) is holy, just and good
    but is not God;

    John tells us that: “AT THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD

    WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD ”

    I repeat it to you IN THE VERY HOLY DIVINITY ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD AND BE THE GOD, IT IS THE FATHER

    AND ONLY THE SON OF GOD NAMED “THE WORD” IN JOHN 1 IS GOD AND MAN.

    #862984
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……The God’s word is God, the only reason it says “was” , is because John was speaking about something that “was ” in (the beginning ). GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING. 

    This might help you,  is a word? , it is intellegent utterance.  GOD’S intellect is his words, just as your words show your intellence, so does GOD’S WORDS.   Trying to make God’s words a different person is pure stupidity, just another form of “mystery religion” , you people preach.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #862985
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    It is because you cannot see the Divinity of Jesus that you say that, and you come to deify words that God speaks … funny theology that does not come from God;

    REVELATION 19 UNVEILS MYSTERY

    [13] And he (Jesus)was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    WHO IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD ???

    JESUS CHRIST

    God bless

    #862986
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Gene is absolutely right and what you speak is absolute absurdity.

    Matthew 12: 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Berean, why do you suppose that by a person’s words they may be justified or condemned?

    YOUR words reflect your thoughts, your very character, and like Gene said, your intelligence or lack thereof.

    Your words reflect YOU, and a human can speak lies as well as speak the truth. Your words expose who you are, a liar or an honest person. Your WORDS ARE WHO YOU ARE.

    YHWH cannot lie, that which He speaks is always the TRUTH.

    By YHWH’S WORDS we know what the truth is!

    By YHWH’S WORDS we learn WHO HE IS and WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE. YHWH’S WORDS ARE WHO HE IS.

    The Word is TRUE, The Word is God for GOD is TRUE.

    Psalm 119:160 Thy WORD IS TRUE from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that GOD IS TRUE.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words OF God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not OF myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE doeth the works.

     

    #862987
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    What Gene and I ask is that you apply clear given truths from passages to other passages.

    I have asked this before, for people to APPLY prophecies directly to the chapter of John 1. 

    Long before John spoke God’s word, MOSES, DAVID and ISAIAH SPOKE God’s word. John speaks of Jesus with the same truth that Moses, David and Isaiah spoke. John specifically speaks of Moses and Isaiah, even quotes Isaiah’s word in his book.

    God’s word from the prophets we see DIRECTLY ALIGNS with that which John spoke. 

    #862988
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi or Gene

    Find me verses which prove that “the words of God” are GOD because I know none.
    If that were the case, we would have known about these things for a long time.
    God has his church on earth, He guides and teaches it.
    The faith transmitted to the saints once and for all is established on the fact that Jesus is the only begotten begotten Son of the living God.
    He is the image of the living God (Colossians 1)
    A reflection of the glory of God and the very imprint of the PERSON OF GOD (Hebrews 1)
    It is THE SON OF GOD who is descended from heaven to do the will of his Father and not his own although he is God.

    THE SON OF GOD IS FROM HEAVEN

    JOHN
    6:38 for I came down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.
    6:46 Because no one has seen the Father except him who comes from God; that one saw the Father.

    YOU ARE LIKE THE JEWS WHO MURMURED ABOUT CHRIST, FROM WHERE IT COMED ….

    6:41 The Jews murmured about him, because he had said, I am the bread that came down from heaven.

    6:42 And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, the one whose father and mother we know? How then does he say: I came down from heaven?

     How then does he say: I came down from heaven?

    THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS ​​COMES FROM Heaven

    Yet Micah had prophesied

    And you, Bethlehem Ephrata, Little one among the thousands of Judah, From you will come for me He who rules over Israel, The origin of which goes back to ancient times, In the days of eternity.

    And whose origin goes back to ancient times, To the days of eternity.

    THE ORIGIN OF JESUS ​​BACK TO OLD DAYS, TO DAYS
    OF ETERNITY

    But the Jews, especially the heads of the nation, were confused when in the Messiah they expected, they wanted above all to be freed from the yoke of the Romans and not from the yoke of sin; and when Jesus appeared before them and he told them where he came from HEAVEN they could not believe. Some believed, but they were few in the time of Jesus ……… ……….

     

    #862990
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and all,

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jodi, Read the above scripture and discern the truth of

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS A SPIRIT BEING ETERNALLY  WITH THE FATHER

    He started this verse and said:

    I WILL THAT WHERE 

    I AM;  definitely ETERNALLY with the Father.

    Then in the above verse is used

    THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE, 

     A TENSE WHICH IS USED WHEN AN ACTION IS INITIATED IN THE PAST AND CONTINUED TO THE PRESENT,

    Which confirms

    JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE

    Twice He said:

    YOU HAVE GIVEN ME….

    and once He said

    YOU HAVE LOVED ME before the creation of the world.

    Thus all the above is a clear reference to Jesus’ PRE-EXISTENCE 

     

    BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.

     

    NOW THE WORLD WAS CREATED IN

    GENESIS 1:1 

    WHEN NOT EVEN THE SUN EXISTED!

    Well clear in

    Ecclesiastes 1:10 Nothing under the sun is new,

    neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

    11There is no remembrance of former things: nor indeed of those things which hereafter are to come, shall there be any remembrance with them that shall be in the latter end.

    Now read this Jodi:

    Zephaniah 1: 7Be silent before the face of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is near,

    for the Lord hath prepared a victim, (Jesus)

    he hath sanctified his guests.

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #862991
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Find me verses which prove that “the words of God” are GOD because I know none.
    If that were the case, we would have known about these things for a long time.

    ME: Berean I am not following you at all, this is very bizarre to me. 

    You speak and people hear your words. People write and we read hearing their words.

    God spoke to the prophets and the prophets wrote down the words that God spoke. Those words were His, they came from Him, they were not the words of the prophets.

    Sometimes what you speak is in direct relation to who you are. If you speak lies you become a liar. If you speak sincere kindness you are kind. If I say I am hungry, it’s because I am hungry.

    Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

    If God says He is the God of Abraham, HE IS EXACTLY WHAT HIS WORD SAYS, HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM!

    Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Seriously Berean, am I suppose to believe that this voice from heaven is Jesus speaking to himself?

    The Father gives PRAISE, those are HIS words reflecting His thoughts, His feelings towards His Son.

    Deut 18: 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put MY WORDS in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 

    This is the LORD’S WORD made true in Jesus, for he is that prophet who the LORD said He would raise up to be a Prophet.

    This is the LORD’S WORD made true in Jesus for Jesus spoke all the WORDS of the LORD that the LORD commanded him to speak.

    The prophet is not the LORD, the prophet is going to speak the LORD’S words.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words OF God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    God GIVING the SPIRIT FOR JESUS TO PREACH God’s WORD, is also God’s WORD (from Isaiah) made true in Jesus. 

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Here is another example of where we see the Father’s WORD, HIS PROMISE, is made true in Jesus.

    When Jesus received the Holy Spirit our Father’s WORD was made true in Jesus.

     

     

    #862992
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    John 17:24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    Of course the Father loved the Son of Man Jesus before the foundation of the world, by the Father’s determined purpose and foreknowledge His plan was to have ONE MAN bring righteousness and life through his blood to set us at liberty.  The Father had purposed this same man to sit on earth upon a throne of glory according to the flesh, even before the world began. 

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    #862993
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN REFERENCE TO MY POST

    YOU: John 17:24 Father, I will that where

    ME: I AM (WHERE IS JESUS JODI ?)

    they also whom

    ME: YOU HAVE GIVEN ME (BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD)

    may be with me: that they may see

     MY GLORY  (ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER)

    ME: WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN ME( BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD)

     because

    ME: THOU HAVE LOVED ME BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.

     

    As I explained  the tense is PRESENT PERFECT TENSE which clearly declares that all the above actions

    INITIATED IN THE PAST and continued in THE PRESENT UP TO THIS DAY

     

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED JODI!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #862997
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: Please describe the qualities of a firstborn lamb at passover.

    ME: I could not tell you anything about “firstborn lambs” at passover because the bible doesn’t mention anything about “firstborn lambs” at passover.

    “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year

    Male lambs of the first year in order to be sacrificed needed to be without spot or blemish.

    I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

    I will just go ahead and say,

    The Lamb of God is the son of Jesse who God rested His Spirit upon, giving him knowledge and fear of the LORD, raising him up in righteousness, directing all his ways for him to be a servant unto God fulfilling God’s covenant, God’s promise to forgive sins. God holds his hand and keeps him in the way to obey all of His commands. Jesus’s faith is tested going to the cross, where he learns OBEDIENCE through suffering and by such he is MADE perfect by God, thus becoming the Lamb of God, sacrificed unto death having remained without spot or blemish.  He is the man who God declared from the beginning who would execute God’s purpose. Because this man poured out his soul unto death being obedient to our Father without failure, our Father gives him a portion with the great, and ordains him to share the spoil (riches) with the strong upon giving them a righteous judgement, not by his own eyes and ears, but through his God and our God. He is resurrected receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit, given for all eternity, raised in power, raised in glory, raised a first begotten of the dead with many brethren to follow at his return.  

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strongBECAUSE he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. God sends this Son of Man upon his calling to righteousness, to save that which was lost.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;..5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things... 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Hebrew 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    Recall, Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; BECAUSE he hath poured out his soul unto death:

     

    #862998
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    This is ridiculous.

    The truth given is wonderful and you just reject it because you want to make Jesus into the image of a COMPLETE PAGAN DEMIGOD as you have been corrupted by a doctrine of Christian “converts, not Christians at all actually, but false apostles who loved the likes of their own gods and the doctrines of their philosophers more than the words of the prophets. You follow false teachers who hated true God fearing Jews, false teachers who where vastly ignorant of our True God. These converts turned Jesus into a false image that was likened to their false gods, and you have fallen into their pit of darkness with their worthless theology.

    You are TOLD that Jesus IS a human being and that human being returns in our Father’s glory, which is the Spirit of our Father that dwells in him, having been given to him according to a promise when he rose from the dead.

    I gave you several scriptures that tell you EXACTLY what it is the people see, and it is glory upon a son of a HUMAN BEING, and their faith and hope is to be as he is.

    Your DENIAL is going to cause you to DENY the Son of Man when he returns in his glory to give the glory that he himself has to his brethren, some will even have the glory to be a king and a judge like him.

    John 17:24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    #862999
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    OF COURSE the Son of God is from heaven!! Where else would he be from, the WORLD? NO.

    Jesus said “I am NOT OF THIS WORLD AS YOU ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD“.

    Jesus was SENT FROM God. LIKEWISE John the Baptist was SENT FROM God. 

    If you are SENT FROM GOD, it means that you are COMING FROM WHERE EXACTLY?……

    ……………..FROM HEAVEN!

    Why do you suppose that the Kingdom OF Heaven and the Kingdom OF God, MEAN the SAME THING?

    That would be because that which is said to be from heaven or coming down from heaven is the same thing as coming from God. 

    When God declared from the beginning a promise not yet done to be fulfilled on earth, when it is fulfilled where is that fulfillment coming from????? It is COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, directly FROM GOD. 

    Jesus tells you that he is the bread from heaven and that bread IS HIS FLESH. It’s not any flesh, but the only mortal flesh to have received the full measure of God’s Spirit, which is God’s WORD told previously from heaven now coming down from heaven/from God to be fulfilled.

    God had said he would rest His Spirit upon the son of Jesse, AN ANOINTING, and then send that anointed begotten of the Spirit out into the world. When he comes into the world as the prophet having been raised up from among brethren to speak the word of God, he is not coming of his own will, he is coming from heaven/FROM GOD unto us, he is SENT to us down from heaven/down FROM GOD. 

    I already told you direct scripture of WHEN Jesus declares that he was SENT. 

    John the Baptist preached, “BEFORE HIS COMING”. Jesus COMES to the world upon his own baptism, where it just so happens that the Spirit descends upon him in full measure and God declared that “THIS is my beloved Son”, and then it just so happens we SEE THIS SON is SENT out into the world.

    And it just so happens that THIS anointed Jesus is said to be the son of David. And it just so happens that God’s word to us from heaven given to David concerning his son, was that God would make David’s son into His own Son.

    Oh my goodness, I’m not sure what to make of this all. Hmm..let’s think…..maybe it’s the FACT that God’s WORD IS ACTUALLY TRUE, that what He said was actually MADE TRUE in the FLESH of JESUS!

     

    #863000
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @carmel

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS A SPIRIT BEING ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER

    Who is the oldest, the Father or the Son, or are they exactly the same age?

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