John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,101 through 20,120 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #862880
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Paul teaches that we are joint heirs of eternal life with Jesus TOGETHER AS HUMAN BEINGS.

    Scripture tells you that Jesus IS a HUMAN BEING to this day. Scripture tells you that our Father’s will has not been completely fulfilled yet but that it will be fulfilled BY a HUMAN BEING, the son of Jesse, who does so because our Father’s Holy Spirit rests upon him, where YHWH directs all his ways.  

    Scripture tells you that it is YHWH’s Spirit upon this son of Jesse, and that YHWH ALONE is God, that there is none besides Him. This son of Jesse was MADE by YHWH for to be a light.

    YHWH ALONE forms the light you are told and Jesus is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

    John 12: 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

    John 13: 31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

     God is glorified IN the SON OF MAN, 

    why we read,

    Mathew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    LU, when Jesus appeared to many after he was raised from the dead he didn’t teach that he pre-existed, he didn’t teach that he received his previous glory, he didn’t teach he was YHWH or that he was the Holy Spirit, he taught of himself directly according to OT prophecies, which were all about the seed of Abrahm, Jesse, and David and what YHWH had purposed in this Son of Man before the world even began. 

    The simple truth we are given is that YHWH before the world began purposed a Son of Man to receive glory. YHWH did make humans in His own image.  The Son of Man prior to going to his death asked YHWH for that very glory that was of YHWH for the Son of Man to receive. This glory was spoken by the prophets and Jesus was well versed and held all faith in those WORDS concerning himself, the Son of Man. Jesus, the man who shed his blood, called the Second Adam/HUMAN is he who exists in the image of our God. 

    This son of Man being begotten by YHWH upon his resurrection, is according to a PROMISE unto David concerning David’s son, IT IS NOT according to Jesus being YHWH.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    #862883
    Ed J
    Participant

    Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

    Darby Bible Translation
    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?

    Berean,

    You’re addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

    Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #862884
    Ed J
    Participant

    Is your view changing from “The Word” being Jesus to “The Word” being the “Spirit of Christ” then ?

    My view hasn’t changed since before this forum was created.

    Hi T8,

    We both agree that the “Spirit of Christ” pre-existed Jesus’ birth on Earth.
    And we both know the man Jesus did not pre-existed Jesus’ birth on Earth.

    So how can you claim that Jesus is “the word” in light of what Hebrews 11:3 clearly states?

    Darby Bible Translation
    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,
    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,
    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

    #862885
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:This king of glory whom David describes to us in this psalms is not God the Father, but THE SON OF GOD

    ME: This is VERY UNTRUE Berean, clearly evident by the passages below. 

    Psalm 9:1 I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works. 2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High. 3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence. 4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right. 5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. 6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. 7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. 8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. 10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 

    Acts 17:31 Because HE hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Chronicles 17:10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in MY kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. …

    20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt? 22 For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for ever; and thou, LORD, becamest their God. 23 Therefore now, LORD, let the thing that thou hast spoken concerning thy SERVANT and concerning his house be established for ever, and do as thou hast said. 24 Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee.

    Psalms 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them…

    ..13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face…

    15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

    NOTICE Berean, David is speaking here of the LORD of whom there is no one in the heavens that can be compared to HIM, “The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them“. THIS LORD promises to establish David’s seed forever, He promises to give His mercy and not take it away unto David’s son, He promises to make him a firstborn and to make him higher than all the kings of the earth. This LORD himself is a KING.

    Psalms 24:1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. 3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? 4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. 6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah. 7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    NOW READ Isaiah 53, distinguish WHO is the LORD, where there is NONE BESIDES HIM, where He ALONE is our God, and who the LORD most certainly IS NOT.

    Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    JESUS is NOT the LORD, the LORD IS THE NAME OF ONE PERSON, our HEAVENLY FATHER. Jesus is the LORD’S SERVANT, who will reign on earth as a king of kings destroying all enemies IN THE NAME of his God and our God, YHWH. When that is accomplished YHWH will come and enter the holy gates into HIS KINGDOM and dwell with us, where He will be ALL IN ALL.

     

    #862886
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi

    Revelation 19 shos us that Jesus is “THE WORD OF GOD”

    and

    THE KING OF KINGS

    ME: Jesus, the root and offspring of David, the Son of Man returning in his Father’s glory, who had SHED his blood, is called the Word of God, and for VERY GOOD REASON.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Him shedding his blood first of all Bearean, IS YHWH’s WORD spoken by Isaiah in chapter 53 made true in the man of flesh Jesus. 

    Second, Jesus being slain was YHWH’S WORD even before the world was, as YHWH’S determined purpose before the world even began was for this Son of Man to be SLAIN for our salvation. 

     

    #862887
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    you

    Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

     

    Darby Bible Translation

    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,

    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

     

    Weymouth New Testament

    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,

    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

     

    so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?Berean,

     

    Once again you are addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

     

    Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

     

    ____________

    God bless

    Ed J

    Berean please give me your take on Hebrews 11:3

     

    Darby Bible Translation

    By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God,

    so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

     

    Weymouth New Testament

    Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the command of God,

    so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.

     

    VERY SIMPLE    Edj

     

    God creates all things by His POWER
    He needs nothing
    BEFORE HE TALKS, THERE IS NOTHING
    WHEN HE SPEAKS, THING EXISTS

    “THE WORD “THAT WAS GOD WAS THE EXECUTOR OF THE WILL OF GOD THE FATHER;

    God bless

    Brn

     

    so, According to Hebrews 11:3 Jesus CANNOT be “The Word” – what say you?Berean,

     

    Once again you are addressing the first part of the verse, while I want you to comment on the second or highlighted part.

     

    Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this since no-one wants to address this here

     

     

     

     

     

    #862888
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The more you resist the biblical truth, the more the light will shine in the midst of darkness.
    Denying the Divinity of Christ Makes You Right in the Wall
    LIKE FOR PAUL, I WISH YOU TO BE STOPPED ON THE WAY
    BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE ….

     

    AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.……..

    ONLY A PERSON IS GOD AND THE GOD……THE FATHER

    ONLY  A PERSON WAS GOD……..THE SON OF GOD

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE

    For in him(Jesus Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead(divinity) bodily.

    divinity+humanity

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.(1 Timoty 3:16)

    GOD (the Word was gGod) manifest in the flesh…

     

    GOD BLESS

    #862892
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”

    Can you let yourself imagine what would an only biological (speaking in terms of deity biology) son be like? In other words, if God brought forth his very own son asexually, one that was of his own nature, before anything was created, how differently would you be thinking about him?

    Blessings,

    LU

    #862894
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”

    Human reasoning right there.

    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

    Note the word ‘granted’.

    God is the boss. Even of the Son.

    #862895
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It’s not helpful for you to make claims about me resisting biblical truth, when I give you scripture upon scripture and you refuse to discuss those scriptures.

    You consistently ignore passages I want you to read and want you to then discuss with me.

    You instead respond by diverting to other passages, passages of which I say you misinterpret all because you don’t read and then apply the passages I have given you. 

     

    #862896
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:16 makes the image of our Christ into an image of antichrist.

    Recall what you are told by Paul in the prior chapter, there is ONE God and that ONE GOD is NOT JESUS.  Paul established clearly that he wants us to see Christ Jesus as a man, anthropos/HUMAN BEING.

    1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    1 Timothy 3: 15-16 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Berean, you are not properly understanding what “God was manifested in the flesh” means.

    The mystery of godliness is the fruits of the Spirit dwelling upon a man. God was fully manifested in the flesh of Jesus, where God’s Spirit worked in him all manner of godliness.  

    Paul speaks a number of times about this godliness, it is seen as the fruits of God’s Spirit. Any ounce of godliness that you have is God’s Spirit being manifested in your flesh.

    Manifest is to be made known.

    Jesus received the Spirit of God without measure, AN ANOINTING (CHRIO) made into THE CHRISTOS. He was sent out to make God’s gospel KNOWN. All the works that he did and all that he said were God’s words and deeds.

    Apply the below passages to 1 Timothy 3:16

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him,Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Acts 10:37 That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; FOR GOD WAS WITH him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    See what you have done Berean? You have taken our Christ, Jesus of Nazareth ANOINTED with our Father’s Spirit and turned him into a FALSE IMAGE. He is NOT GOD.  God is manifested (made known) in Jesus’s flesh through him having been anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.

    GOD IS WITH Jesus, having anointed his flesh with His Spirit, whereby God was manifested (made known) in the man of flesh Jesus.

    NOT Jesus was God and then he was made into flesh.

     

    #862897
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Israel believed that obeying the law gave them their godliness. They did not know the mystery of godliness, which is seen in CHRIST JESUS. Any man who keeps a law or laws does so because our One True God gave the fruit of His Spirit enabling them to do so. Christ Jesus kept ever letter of the law because he had the fullness of God’s Spirit dwelling in him directing all his ways.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. 

    The letter tells us right from wrong, and we are told that the carnal mind is not subject to the law or indeed can be. So we may know what it is that God says is right and wrong, but we are not of our own selves capable of following any law. Where the Spirit dwells that is where righteousness dwells and it is unto God’s grace to give it as He pleases according to His will. We are promised to receive it in fullness upon our resurrection where we will be made perfect, God ALL IN, where we walk in all of His ways as Christ Jesus does.

    Gal 5:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

     

    #862918
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    The subject HERE is to know who is THE WORD.
    Yet not difficult …
    You don’t need a bunch of verses to understand this;

    #862924
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jodi or Gene cannot explain why scripture says that God created the cosmos through the Word, the Son of God, and Jesus Christ.

    Was it three agents or one? They seem to think none and provide poor excuses and unrelated scriptures.

    And repeating this same old spin and expecting a different result after the thousandth attempt is a definition of madness.

    #862927
    Berean
    Participant

    We often need to unlearn before we learn … to demolish before to rebuild

    … a time to break down, and a time to build up…(Ecclesiastes 3:3b)

    #862928
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…. First you need to explain to us is, how a persons words is not the person , you say Jesus was God’s word “himself” , but that not what Jesus said.  Show us any scripture where Jesus ever said he “himself” is God the Fathers word.   Your words are with you because they cannot be someone else. Even if someone quotes you, it’s still you,  as the man Jesus said he was doing telling Us God the Fathers words.  

    The picture you and others portray of  Jesus is  as a thief, stealing from God, making himself equal with GOD, by saying he “HIMSELF’ is the word of GOD, That would make him also a GOD. Espically if you say he also created everything that exists, as you say.

    I as well as Jodi have explained to you over and over the meaning of the Greek word “dia”,  but you all fail to even go read it for yourselves and understand it as related to the scriptures you people use. So you people deserve to remain ignorant to the truth. IMO.  You really don’t “love the truth”   or you would have seriously considered what we have written here.

    Jodi and I have produced many  scriptures to prove our points, but you all fail to even read them much less understand them. What you are is the blind leading the blind and you all have fallen into the ditch groping at the walls. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #862929
    Berean
    Participant

     

    t8

    You

    Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”
    Human reasoning right there.

    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

    Note the word ‘granted’.

    God is the boss. Even of the Son.

    Me

    Jesus said:

    in John 10

    17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    John 2:19

    [19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    [21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

    When the Father gave the order to his eldest Son
    to resume his life, he executed his Father’s order, and The Son of GOD resumed his life as he had announced:  ….”in three days I will raise it up.”….”I have power to take it again”….This commandment have I received of my Father.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #862930
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Denying the divinity of Christ is a big handicap …
    I pray for you Gene that you open your eyes and see that.
    Amen

     

    #862931
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    Regarding this conversation:

    LU: Jesus taught that he was the Son of God and also the giver of eternal life. That alone would be considered “making himself equal with God.”
    Human reasoning right there.

    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

    t8: Note the word ‘granted’.

    God is the boss. Even of the Son.

    That word “granted” does not in any way challenge my view which is:

    There is only one God alone and that one God is expressed as two persons together, not one person alone…a Father working out all things through his only begotten Son and for the Son who is identical to him in eternal nature, united in spirit.

    In fact, the one consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit completely agrees with the notion of a level of authority within it. A level of authority does not show a difference in nature even in human father and sons. You are the boss of your young son, that doesn’t mean that he is less than you in being human does it.

    Blessings, LU

    #862932
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene and All,

    You said it well Gene! “Your words are with you because they cannot be someone else. Even if someone quotes you, it’s still you, as the man Jesus said he was telling Us God the Fathers words.”

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Our Father PROMISED (GAVE HIS WORD) to rest His Spirit upon the son of Jesse, where this man would be sent out to speak our Father’s WORD and perform our Father’s WORK. 

    That WORD spoken by our Father WAS MADE TRUE in Jesus of Nazareth, a man of flesh, the son of Jesse just as was PROMISED.  

    This man of flesh was begotten by our Father’s Spirit, an ANOINTING, filled with grace and truth DIRECTLY ACCORDING to our Father’s WORD spoken long prior, where our Father said that He would give him of His Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of HIM.

    The people beheld the glory of THIS MAN who had been begotten of our Father’s Spirit filled with grace and truth. The people’s Christ had come in the flesh just as our Father’s WORD had said that he would.

    Furthermore, we are directly told that it was our Father’s WORD from the beginning that a man would be sent to execute our Father’s purpose, to bring salvation. 

    Folks, it is a clear and simple biblical truth that the man Jesus, the ROD of JESSE was OF the WORD of our Father from the beginning, just as eternal life was OF the WORD of our Father from the beginning.  Even our Father’s WORD of Jesus being slain was a determined purpose, OF the foreknowledge of our Father.

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