John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 19,761 through 19,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #850963
    Berean
    Participant

    jodi or Gene

    Jesus is before all things. (Colossiens 1)

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    this cannot be dismantled

    ETERNAL TRUTH to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews13:8)

    God bless

    #850964
    Berean
    Participant

    jodi or Gene

    Jesus is before all things. (Colossiens 1)

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    this cannot be dismantled

    ETERNAL TRUTH to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews13:8)

    God bless.

    #850965
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Good words Berean!

    This passage is so wonderful:
    Philippians 2

    Be Like Christ

    1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW,of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Blessings, LU

    #850966
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    Words’ S song (Héritage singers)

    Because of love He left His throne
    And made this Earth His home
    He did it willingly
    For you and me
    With heaven left behind
    He came to save all mankind
    From sin and shame
    He could have walked away
    But instead He chose
    To stay upon that tree
    And take a crown of thrones for me
    Because of love
    Because of love He bore my pain (He bore my pain)
    Shouldering the blame
    Why did He chose to go (He didn’t have to go)
    How could He love me so
    Because of love He called to me (He called to me)
    He said “Child I will set you free (You’ll have)
    Life abundantly (Life abundantly)
    Because of love (Because of love)
    He gave unselfishly
    Caused my blinded to eyes to see
    It was you and me He had in mind
    On that road to Calvary
    I’ve never known such a perfect love
    I had fallen down but He…

     

    God bless

    #850967
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Lovely song, thanks for sharing. I listened to it here:


    Stay well, LU

     

    #850968
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    NO it does not, and is this your only passage that you have?

    The LORD says that which Jesus will do, and what Jesus does are not his own works but he performs the LORD’S works so that they will trust in the LORD. Jesus does not come on his own, the people are to know that the LORD sends him, and the LORD says what he will do. By believing in Jesus, as he is a messenger of the LORD, they are believing in the LORD.

    Who is sent?

    Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Zech 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me (Jesus) unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I (Jesus) will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me (Jesus). Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I (Jesus) come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD (the LORD says that Jesus will come and what he will do). 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day (Such is the purpose of Jesus, to bring people to the LORD, where then the LORD gives the people to Jesus to rule over them), and shall be my (Jesus’s) people: and I (Jesus) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me (Jesus) unto thee.

    Matthew 2:. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 

    John 8:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

    HOW is it that Jesus does the Father’s works, both while he was on earth and when he returns?

    Recall, Jesus was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, and on that day we are also told that he was begotten by the LORD and that he became a firstborn of many brethren.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed. 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

     

     

     

    #850970
    Berean
    Participant

    2 CORINTHIANS 8:9] For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    that, though he was rich,(in heaven)

    yet for your sakes he became poor,(on earth)

    that ye through his poverty might be rich.(spiritually)

    #850979
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thank you as always for your support and encouragement brother! Love to you, Jodi

    #850980
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    That is far from the only verse that mentions two, it was just the one that fell out of the sky last night and dropped in front of me. I’m kidding, actually I hadn’t seen that one before last night.

    I expect you to not be able to see the two Jehovahs in that verse, your lens prohibits you.

    God bless, LU

     

    #850981
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1. Who do you think is the “I”?
    2. Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

     

    #851002
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: You said: He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.

    Where do you get that in the Bible?

    I get that idea from the countless scriptures that refer to Jesus as God’s Son. 😉  The closest example we have of a cloned person would be an identical twin.   Has there ever been a case where one identical twin is considered the father or son of the other one?

    Plus, you can’t deny that in your scenario, one of the entities was already in existence before the other one existed, right?  So we still have a case where the existence of the LATTER entity was the direct result of a conscious decision by the FORMER entity to bring forth into existence a second entity.

    That sounds a lot like a case of God (the Original and Originator) choosing to create (bring forth into existence) another living being.  In other words, it sounds a lot like what the scriptures tell us (“brought me forth as the first of his works”, “beginning of the creation by God”, “firstborn of every creature”, “today I have begotten a son”, etc.)

    Hey Kathi, what if Jesus is just the first creation by God – like the scriptures clearly seem to indicate?  What would stop you from accepting that?  Would it be something scriptural?  Or something personal?

    #851003
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.

    Your word “behoove” illustrates my point.  I asked if one Creator/Entity can have two DIFFERENT wills.   And the logical answer is no.  If one makes a conscious decision to align his will with the will of the other, then there are two – not one.

    Do you ever wonder why you have to perform so many scriptural and philosophical gymnastics to try to explain your version of God?  Think Occam’s Razor.  The most sensible understanding of ONE God creating the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them THROUGH his holy servant is that there is truly ONE God… AND his holy servant who is someone other than him.  Agreed?

    #851004
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  …the Father is God to both the Son and the church albeit indirectly to the church since He has placed Christ in the direct position to the church after the resurrection.

    So the servant’s GOD has given His servant a position of prominence?  What does it mean Jehovah is the God of His servant Jesus – if Jesus and the Father together make up the entity of Jehovah?  Could it be that our God and creator is Jehovah… and Jesus’ God and creator is Jehovah too – like the scriptures clearly indicate?

    As for the virus, I’ll state it plainly:  There is no such thing as a contagious virus, and never has been.  But point taken that it is off topic here.

    #851005
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..Jesus is before us in  all things,  in regards to the kingdom of God,   but he is always subject to God the Father, in authority.

    1 Cor 15:27….”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet, it is “manifest” that “he is excepted”, which put “all things” under him.”

    Berean are you able to actually understand that scripture?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

     

    #851006
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: Hi Jodi,

    You spend many words trying to convince us that Jesus is a man. Who is debating that here? Many of us believe that Jesus existed in another manner before he was brought forth into Mary’s womb to become that man though.

    That is a great summary of what I’ve noticed as well.  Many words and scriptures to demonstrate that God foretold Jesus’ time on earth, and that he was a man upon whom God placed His Holy Spirit and through whom God did many miracles and wonders.  But none of which, as far as I can tell so far, scripturally deny Jesus’ existence in heaven before he emptied himself and was made as a human being.

     

     

    #851007
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    An identical twin is not a clone, Mike. A clone has an original to clone to. I propose that the original, in the case of an eternal source, is either the eternally existing father and son where the son is existing but not yet begotten or the potential father and son before asexual reproduction begins. Since you are wrong immediately in your first sentence above in your post, you build the rest of your post on sand and the definition of “clone” washed it away.

    Here is the definition:

    an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.

    That fits a father/son relationship. When that happens for the very first time, that which is in the father is equally in the son and all substance is the same age. Asexual reproduction is not a creation but a reproduction. The Son was begotten, not created. Adam was created, Adam was not begotten when he became the first man. There is a difference between created sons and begotten sons. Jesus is the only begotten Son. In the cell theory, if the original cell asexually reproduced only one time and was not begotten itself, then the begotten cell would have the very same eternal substance as the original. That can only be said of the very first generation of an eternal existing original. The original is actually not a father nor a son but a potential father and son. Once it starts the asexual reproductive process, then the relationship begins. Whether the Father was eternally in a father relationship (which would require the son to eternally exist as a son also) or if the original was a potential father/son really doesn’t change the idea that both father and son existed as long as the other.

    Mike says: Hey Kathi, what if Jesus is just the first creation by God – like the scriptures clearly seem to indicate? What would stop you from accepting that? Would it be something scriptural? Or something personal?

    You show me scriptures that say Jesus is the first creation by God and I will accept that. You haven’t been able to do that. Nothing you have shown me challenges the eternally existing original, asexually reproducing only one offspring identical to themselves.

    Thanks for the discussion, though.

    #851008
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    Scripture directly tells us that Yehovah gave His word from the beginning that a man would be called to execute His purpose for the creation that He by Himself made and that purpose was to give mankind eternal salvation. 

    Scripture directly tells us that God actually declared that salvation before the world even began, as He promised us eternal life before the world began.

    Prophecy directly tells us that our savior to come would be a human.

    Scripture directly tells us that a human of the genes of David did God raise up to be a savior, doing so according to a promise.

    Scripture directly tells us that before this human was born “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began”

    Scripture directly tells us that God would bring forth this horn of salvation from the house of David, who would rule over David’s house, being born according to a sign of a virgin birth.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus before and after he was raised from the dead is a human and that his Genesis comes from being of the genes of David and Abraham.

    Scripture directly tells us that it is a human who sits at God’s right hand in heaven.

    Scripture directly tells us that a human is returning and will sit on the throne of his father David according to the flesh.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus IS the root and offspring of David.

    Scripture directly tells us that God will be all in all, and where He gives of His Spirit and people have a heart of flesh that follows all His ways.

    Scripture directly tells us that all flesh will come to worship God.

    Scripture directly tells us that a man rose from the dead and received the promise of the Holy Spirit and the mercies of David, where God begat him on that day.

    Scripture directly tells us that this man was raised first in an order of men becoming a firstborn of many brethren.

    Scripture directly tells us that Yehovah would crown a man with glory and honor and give him dominion over all the works of Yehovah and put all things under his feet.

    Scripture directly tells us that the son of David who was crucified God made him both a lord and the Anointed.

    Scripture directly tells us that a Son of Man is a lord even over the Sabbath.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus is a son of David and is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead.

    Prophecy directly tells us that a man would come and through God’s Spirit upon him he would be sent out to set people free of their sins through his death, and for that reason he would be raised from the dead and given a portion among the great and mighty where he is appointed to dived it.

    Scripture directly tells us that the man Jesus could do nothing of himself and that he speaks Gods words to us and performs God’s purpose according to God’s Spirit resting upon him.

    Scripture directly tells us that God would raise up a prophet from among brethren and God would put His words into this man’s mouth, and those who believed on him would be rewarded and those who didn’t would be punished.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus received of God’s Spirit not by measure, where the bible can confirm that he was the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit at this measure of fullness.

    Jesus tells us that God’s Spirit came upon him, called AN ANOINTING so that he could be SENT out to execute God’s purpose, to which we know that purpose had been declared by God before He made heaven and earth by Himself.

    Scripture directly tells us that it is by a man who God ordained that would judge the quick and the dead, and he would not judge by his own eyes and ears.

    Scripture directly tells us that a Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father and will reward every man for his works.

    Scripture directly tells us that we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, and that we are partakers of God’s divine nature.

    Scripture directly tells us that God made man in His own image, and that He did not make earth and man in vain but for earth to be inhabited where people seek after Him.

    Jesus tells us that whoever will do the will of God the same is his brother, his sister, and his mother.

    Jesus directly tells us that only God is good, and all throughout the bible we read of God giving humans of His mercy/goodness, where the fruits of His Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, and temperance.

    Scripture tells us that Jesus grew as a child with God’s grace being upon him.

    Scripture also directly tells us that God gives of His Spirit to make humans wise, to cause people to have understanding, to give them of His council and might, to give them knowledge and fear of Him, where He makes by His Spirit some prophets, some healers, some apostles, some teachers.

    Prophecy directly tells us that a son of Jesse would receive all the above gifts in order to be sent out to fulfill God’s purpose. This prophecy is directly told to us by Jesus as being fulfilled in him, and we read that him being sent out into the world began in Galilee.

    We read that before the coming of Jesus that John prepared his way preaching baptism and repentance.

    Jesus also tells us that people after he ascends to sit at God’s right hand would receive gifts of the Holy Spirit. Jesus also speaks of these people as being not of this world as he is not of this world, and that they are sent as he was sent.

    Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”

    AND SO HERE WE ARE

    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.”

    “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by ONE MAN, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Berean and ALL, our heavenly Father made all things, creating heaven, earth, and man by Himself, by reason of and for the ONE MAN Jesus Christ. This ONE MAN was declared before all things came to be, and in him do all things consist, without him nothing would have been made. 

     

    #851009
    Lightenup
    Participant

     

    Mike

    Mike, you asked: Can one creator have two different wills?

    LU: Yes when the two are perfectly united.

    Mike: That seems counterintuitive to me.  How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will?  Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will.  But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?

    Again, Mike, and I told you this in my original response to you, I didn’t say that two different wills united as one single will. You added the “one single will” part. One single will is different than one united will. This is what I told you:

    LU: I didn’t say that the two wills were perfectly united as one single will. The two wills are perfectly united to do the will of the Father acknowledging the Father as the authority. This doesn’t make the Son’s will (is) less wise or less in anyway but demonstrates the perfect wisdom and love of the Son.

    For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.

    Understand? Two wills united as one united will still realizes two distinct wills, but both are in agreement.

     

    #851010
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,

    Answering these questions might help realize something. Please respond…it should lead to an interesting discussion.

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    2. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    3. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

    #851011
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: I do not at all deny that God created all things through Jesus. I declare it and find it to be a most profound truth… God’s purpose for His creation would be executed through a man whom God calls (Isaiah 46), and it is Jesus who IS that man.

    I agree with almost everything in your post.  Yes, Jesus was a man whom God foretold He’d send.

    Jodi:  Eternal life does not come to us because God sent a spirit son down to earth. 

    This part I take issue with.  Where can I read in scripture that the messiah must be a man who is exactly like any other man?  After all, even in your understanding, Jesus was never like any other man.  Who else had a human mother but not a human father?  So that right there should tell us that the man Jesus is quite different from all other men, right?

    Also, your statement is akin to you saying, “Eternal life does not come to us from a man whom God made from rock on the ground.”   

    You seem to be falling into the mindset of the Pharisees whom John the Baptizer scolded.  In their minds, being a son of Abraham was ONLY possible by the normal means of being a natural descendant of Abraham’s loins.  Yet John told them that God could raise up children of Abraham from rocks, right?  So had God raised up Jesus from rocks and called him a son of Jesse, you’d likely cry foul because in your own mind, a son of Jesse MUST BE one who came through Jesse’s loins in the normal way.

    So can you see the error in your thinking?  Yes, Jesus is a son of David.  But God could have raised him up as a son of David without even going through Mary.  God could have raised up this particular son of David from a rock .  Likewise, God could have raised up this particular son of David by sending His spirit son to be born of a human woman.

    Thoughts?

Viewing 20 posts - 19,761 through 19,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account