John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,821 through 25,840 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946752
    Berean
    Participant

    EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
    LIII.(1) Who hath believed our report? . . .—The question has been variously interpreted as coming from the lips of the prophet or of Israel. The former view commends itself most, and the unusual plural is explained by his mentally associating with himself the other prophets, probably his own disciples, who were delivering the same message. The implied answer to the question may be either “None,” or, “Not all.St. Paul (Romans 10:16) adopts the latter.

     

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?  (Rom.10:16)

    #946753
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……I agree with what you have posted, Isiah was speaking of all the Prophets, when he made that statement,  IMO , Jesus showed his deciles all the Prophets that spoke about him, Isiah was just one of them.  Luk 18:33……” then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold , we go to Jerusalem, and “ALL THINGS” (about his death and resurrection)  that are written by , “THE PROPHETS”, concerning the Son of man, shall be accomplished”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #946754
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Accusing me of not continuing our “conversation” because I “don’t like your format”, I’m “embarrassed”, or am “uncomfortable” with the discussion couldn’t be further from the truth. I have asked you multiple times to change your writing style because fragmented sentences are annoying to following, writing in all caps means your yelling and is rude, to write in paragraph format for easier reading, the constant “I’m superior to everyone” mentality, while obnoxious, I can handle; but paints you as a self absorbed, know-it-all most will avoid. With this understanding, would you continue a conversation with this type of individual?

    Also, why do you believe your writing style is “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” and not annoying to me and why do you care so much that our conversation continues?

    #946756
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You quote man’s thoughts and accept that as proof for what you believe?!?!? You make my point and settle my case of christians believing what they are told to believe!

    Let’s examine this commentary to see if Isaiah is really referring to himself and the other prophets or “possibly Isaiah’s own disciples” (did you notice the indecisiveness of Ellicott). If the “our” and “we” are referencing Isaiah and the other prophets, it would mean Isaiah and the other prophets wouldn’t look upon him (the Jesus) because he had “no form nor comeliness” nor “beauty” that the prophets “should desire him.” This statement was made about 700 years before the Jesus; when would they have seen the Jesus to “desire” him? And if the prophets “envisioned” him as being the messiah, why would they be rejecting him since they are the one’s prophesying about him?

    Continuing on, it would also mean the prophets “hid” there faces from the Jesus. The Jesus bore the grief and carried the sorrows of the prophets (not all of mankind) because the “our” is the prophets according to Ellicott. Yet the prophets “esteemed him (the Jesus) stricken” “smitten of God and afflicted.” Does the “our” being the prophets make any sense to you?!?!?!? Remember these are prophets of God; men chosen by God to deliver HIS message and you believe the “our” and “we” are the prophets speaking about what they did to the Jesus??

    To understand chapter 53 one must being reading in 52:13 and then you would see it isn’t the prophets speaking, but the nations speaking of what they have done to Israel.

    Did you read any of those passages I gave you concerning “to whom the arm of the Lord has been revealed”?

    #946758
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I belong to Jesus Christ and to His Father the LORD!

    #946759
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??

    What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?

    Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?

    ME: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?

    How about these passages,

    Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Scripture tells me that there will be a judgment day, we read in Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Both OT and NT speak of a judgement day, there is a reward of eternal life or a punishment of eternal death given according to each individual person. In that judgement day, “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

    Think about it, when God brought curses unto adults who sinned like famine, did that not impact also innocent children? Surely the flood in Genesis, young children drowned as well.

    DT, God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.

    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    DT, your question, “what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?” is answered in the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead and sat him at His right hand where he is going to return to earth to complete all of God’s will, where God has given all things into his hands. Jesus says, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” Our one true God gives our Messiah the name of Everlasting Father where the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that God called to believe in our Messiah and were given by God to the Messiah. The Messiah has the honor in his return to give them the promised Spirit, which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways. God will be All in All, they will all be of One. 

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    DT explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?

    The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.

    #946761
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    The holy spirit is not a third person.

    It is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ.

    So don’t blaspheme the Father the LORD and don’t blaspheme His Son Jesus Christ. Because the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven.

     

    #946762
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?

    Me: So you believe in the doctrine of “original sin”; the belief sin entered into the world and our “sin nature” is due to the “fall of Adam.” Please explain Gen 4:7 “If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Here God is telling Cain that “sin desires for you” and the next statement destroys what Paul teaches and by proxy, christianity. God says we are to rule over sin; NOT that we are slave to it, but have dominion over it. Sure, sin can be our “master”; but that’s because we allow it thru our decision making, not because God made it that way.

    What was the punishment given to Adam and Eve that has now transcended all generations? You quote verses from Exodus chapter 20 & 34 saying the iniquities of the father would be passed onto their children to the third and fourth generations, did you miss when God said “of those who hate HIM”? Sounds like if the children continue on in their parents footsteps, they will also receive the same punishments as their parents. To claim the punishment of the parent wickedness will pass onto the child even if the child turns from the training of their parents and follows God’s commands is wrong. God even clarifies this twisting of HIS words in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 saying you own your sin and will be punished accordingly, unless you repent and turn from it.

     

    You: God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.

    Me: Enlighten me; please explain how I am “misunderstanding” Ezek 18 and the relation to Isa 53.

     

    You: the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.

    Me: Again, the word here is “zera” and it applied to the biological procreation of plants, animals, and mankind and NOTHING to do with “believing” in a man and becoming a “seed” of his. This is religion, unless you can provide a passage in the Tanakh that states belief in the Messiah brings salvation.

     

    You: explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?

    Me: I’ll ask again, when did God say human sacrifice was good and HE accepted it? Lev 18:21 “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.” Or in Jer 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.” But you’re going to tell me it’s okay for God to do it even though he commanded against it for mankind.

     

    You:The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.

    Me: Funny, coming from someone who makes up reasons to support what they believe (i.e. “virgin birth”). I have provided many passages supporting what I have written. I have given a list of passages concerning who the Messiah will be, what he will do, and does the Jesus fulfill any of it; and NONE have countered any of them. Here’s the link again 946290, explain when the Jesus while he was here fulfilled all that was written about the Messiah and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:

    “gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “ rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).

    “will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    #946763
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Can you provide a biblical passage to support that claim?

    And why at the end of Matthew does the Jesus say to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; I count three…hmmmm. Actually, there’s only God and no other; HE said so.

    Also, if taking God and the Jesus’ name in vain is the “unforgivable sin” because the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ, I imagine most (even those who claim to be “christian”) are condemned to Hell as I haven’t met anyone who hasn’t taken God’s name or the Jesus’ name in vain.

    Basically, the only one’s going to heaven are infants and toddlers; but wait, they’re born into and automatically have a sin nature and haven’t “accepted” the Jesus into their hearts, so they’re condemned too.

    Who’s going to heaven? Please think about what you wrote and does it make sense.

    #946766
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.

    Me: Hasn’t God “called” all of mankind? Ezek 18:32 “I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

    God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    Since “the best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures”, can you provide me a passage that states the “seed” referenced in Isaiah 53:10 are those whom “God has called”?

    #946767
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….YOU SAID……God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    me….You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died ? Scripture say “all” have sinned and came short of the glory of God, ( therefore  all have died ). So from that , who has repented, seeing all have died?

    Jesus is the “ONLY” human being who never sinned,  you can’t find any other human in the history of the human race who has never sinned, and even he died, but not for “his sins” but because of the sins , this evil world did to him.

    Jesus was the “only” human who never sinned, he is the one who “demonstrated” to us all, how to have a true right relationship with God the Father, and it’s “exactly” the same as his.  All those who “truly” believe in him , will conform to his likeness, through the operation of God’s Holy Spirit, and overcome this world just as he did also.  There is “no” other way.

    Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death. IMO,  THIS IS NOT SAYING Jesus did it all in our place, so we don’t have to do anything, but he did it to “DEMONSTRATE ”  to us all, the “WAY” that,  we can all attain to the full measure and stature of Jesus Christ , by the exact same Spirit that was in Jesus Christ our lord> the result is eternal life,  exactly as Jesus now has.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    #946768
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died? … Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death.

    Me: In the first part you claim a physical death; then at the end you speak of a spiritual death. Why are you playing ignorant?

    Why do you believe God is looking for perfection as the liar Paul wants you to believe? God knows you’re going to sin and if you do, HE says to repent, turn from it, and HE’LL remember it no more. I didn’t read anything about believing in a man as a path to forgiveness and salvation. You still haven’t explained why I need the Jesus since God has already given mankind a path to forgiveness and ultimately salvation.

    I’m still waiting for you to explain how the Jesus is the messiah when he never fulfilled what was written about who he is to be and what he will do (link 946290) and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:

    “gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).

    “will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    #946769
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    If you reject Jesus Christ then you are against His Father the LORD as well. Repent!

    #946770
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT and all

    In the Old Testament, the thought that the iniquity of the assembly of Israel was borne by the priests was not foreign…

    when we read
    Lev.10:17

    [17] Why have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place? it is most holy: and God hath given it unto you, to bear the iniquity of the assembly, to make atonement for them before the LORD.

    To become more familiar with the subject
    go to this link below

    https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/12119.221#221

    God bless

    #946771
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Yawn, I don’t need the Jesus according to God; are you not reading and verifying what I am writing? I keep being told I need to “repent”; but no one can tell me what to repent of. I reject the Jesus because he IS NOT the messiah prophesied in the Tanakh. Prove me wrong!! I have given passages speaking of who the true Messiah will be and what he’ll do and none have countered it.

    VERIFY, VERIFY, VERIFY EVERYTHING!!!!! Make sure what you are being told is “truth”; does it align with the Tanakh. Read what I recently wrote to Jodi and Gene and prove me wrong! I know you won’t, because you aren’t strong enough in what you believe. You have a weak foundation in your faith and repeat what you have been told to repeat.

    You couldn’t respond to me asking you for a passage concerning the “unforgivable sin” by using God’s and the Jesus’ name in vain. Here’s a hint, there isn’t one because a man made it up and you latched onto as truth because it sounded good.

    #946772
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Your point? And does this have to do with the “our” in Isa 53 being the prophets?

    #946773
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    My last post is related to Isaiah 53.

    And I have nothing more to say about “our”

    #946774
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    In what respect does the Leviticus 10:17 passage have anything to do with Isa 53? To say it relates with no explanation says nothing! How am I to know what you’re talking about when you never explain anything?

    Then refusing to answer who the “our” is only further proves how entrenched in religion and doctrines you are and how they take precedence over God, making HIM secondary. The real reason you “have nothing else to say” is you have no idea who the “our” is and are once again running away. How sad!

    #946775
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……So you believe a person can be save, by himself,  remember it says…..”the soul that sins, it shall die.”, So when does this soul stop sinning?  Have you reached that goal yet?
    Fact is, you or no human being has completely stop sinning,  we all “still” come short of that goal, why?  Because in order for us to completely stop sinning, something must be added to our existence.

    Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what that something is,  God by his “Holy Spirit” must come to dwell in us all, or we can never stop sinning, and until that “fully” takes place no human will ever stop sinning .  Jesus “demonstrated ” , the “WAY”  we must be all truly be saved, and it’s not by our own human efforts, but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit abiding “IN” US.  That is what will cause us to overcome this world and its sins.  There is no other way, and Jesus “demonstrated” that fact to us all.

    But your self saving point is dealt with in scripture, “notice” What happens in the “millennial ” reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints.  Evil is removed from the earth and all the world is taught God’s ways for a thousand years. But what happens at the end of those perfect world wide ruling days,  when evil is reintroduced back into the world? Notice they all fall away and turn against Jesus and the Saints , why? Because they (the people of this world) never were converted, even though they were instructed for a thousand years in the way of God, but as soon as evil was released on this earth again, they all fell away. Why?

    God is proving by the millennial reign a simple,  but very important point, that no human being can “maintain” true righteousness on their own, even if his teaching and environment is perfect, he or she will always fell in the end, just as the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints shows clearly. that “true righteousness” must be “maintained” in a person by the “holy spirit” of God. The only ones who had the Spirit of God “in” them was Jesus Christ and the Saints who were ruling with him and when evil was released back on the earth , they were the only ones who did not fall away.

    DT…. You may think you can save yourself by you own self choices, but you will ultimately fail,  the “ONLY” way to true righteousness, is through the power of God, exactly as Jesus “DEMONSTRATED ” , to us all.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    #946776
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    In what respect does the Leviticus 10:17 passage have anything to do with Isa 53? To say it relates with no explanation says nothing! How am I to know what you’re talking about when you never explain anything?

    Me

    If you REALLY want to KNOW the truth it’s up to you to seek it out.
    I gave a link to read.
    Give yourself time to at least read it.

    For the “our” I already answered that, don’t let it be understood that it hasn’t been done.

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