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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • September 4, 2024 at 8:45 am#946777
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    The question was for you to expound and clarify what your opinion is, not for me to seek out the “truth” on how the Leviticus passage relates to the Isaiah. You made a statement, now clarify. My guess is you are unable to because you really don’t know why you believe what you believe. My guess is someone told you this and you believed them without every verifying what they said. The link you provided to Ellen White doesn’t even mention Isaiah 53…do you understand the confusion?!?

    The “our” in Isaiah 53 isn’t resolved, I asked additional questions for clarification and you have yet to answer them. Because it’s done in your mind, doesn’t mean it’s done in mine; again, you made the claim and said it’s the prophets – prove it!

    September 4, 2024 at 8:57 am#946778
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    My guess you still haven’t looked up the provided passages concerning to whom the “arm of the Lord” was revealed. What are you afraid of?

    It’s never to late to turn back to Hashem! HE is always waiting for you with out stretched arms, because HE loves HIS creation.

    September 4, 2024 at 12:29 pm#946779
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I never said “I” was able to save myself; I said God has given all mankind the path to forgiveness. If you have a question ask, stop making assumptions and put words in my mouth I didn’t say.

    God never mentioned a “holy spirit” in the Tanakh; a NT creation and why there’s the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Please explain the “millennial reign”; why would or what purpose would God have in a 1000 years of peace and then “release Satan” to reek havoc on mankind again? If mankind is enjoying 1000 years of peace and worshiping God, who would turn from this utopia and embrace evil again? Who would have been left that wasn’t “converted”? After all, when the Jesus comes back isn’t he to judge the world and those who don’t believe in him are condemned and those who do live. It would seem the only ones left would be the “true believers”; so who’s “falling away”? You believe you are “filled with the spirit”, along with every other person posting here; yet, you aren’t in agreement. Isn’t it suppose to be the same “spirit”? What you believe is a fairy tail!

    Please find in the Tanakh were God speaks of this “millennial age.” You still haven’t answered my question if the Jesus fulfills what the Tanakh says the true Messiah will be and what he will do. Please provide the NT passages that confirm he will accomplish the following when he returns:

    “the Jesus will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe the “obsolete commands” of God.

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    September 5, 2024 at 2:09 am#946780
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….I explained to you about why God has the millennium period, and for what reason he is doing it, did that also fly over your head,  do you just shut off anything written in response to you?

    You  said the Tanaka does not mention the Holy Spirit of God, but that is also wrong,  it is mentioned it in several places, such as just some of these.

    God told Moses to select 70 elders from Israel, and he would take of the Spirit that he put on Moses and put on them, in order for them to help Moses judge the people of Israel.

    Joshua and Caleb had a different Spirt in them.

    God took the Spirit from King Saw, that he was anointed with, and sent him an evil spirit,

    David cried out to God and Said ,  “take not thy Spirit from me”.

    I am willing to bet you don’t even know what is the meaning of the word “Spirit” is,  nor the word “Holy”.  Please enlighten us, if you can?

    If you believe there is no such thing as the “Holy” Spirit, you’re not even “close” to understanding the truth of God’s word, nor scriptures, NEW OR OLD . IMO.

    SADLY, The scriptures that applies to you most now, IMO,  is this,   Jude 1:11…> “woe unto them : for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.”   If you have rejected Jesus and the words he has spoken to us, then you have rejected God the Father also DT, IMO.  Remember, he who rejects the messenger, also rejects the one who sent him, so, Repent! 

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

     

     

     

    September 6, 2024 at 3:02 am#946784
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Once again you continue to ignore the elephant in the room; when are you going to prove the Jesus is the true Messiah according to what was written in the Tanakh about the Messiah? Why do you keep running away?

     

    You: I explained to you about why God has the millennium period, and for what reason he is doing it, did that also fly over your head, do you just shut off anything written in response to you?

    Me: Sorry, your story doesn’t make any sense, none of what you wrote is verifiable (even in the NT), and why did you ignore every question asked? The questions where asked, not because I enjoy writing, but for clarification. Why is God “testing” everyone who is already “saved”? The first “saving” wasn’t an actual “saving”; wasn’t it good enough? Aren’t those who are left on earth spared from the fiery pit because they turned to the Jesus? What about those who were “raptured away”, are they exempt from this testing and why? Was their “saving” more superior to those who came to the Jesus after the “rapture”? Why would people after a 1000 years of utopia with God suddenly begin rejecting HIM and start sinning again? So what happens to those who fail this “test”, will they also be cast into the Lake of Fire? Explain how this aligns with the Tanakh when God is the one who said three times HE doesn’t take pleasure in the death of anyone (passages for your reading pleasure) AND then goes on to tells all how they can live.

    Ezek 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

    Ezek 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.

    Ezek 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live

    This ISN’T one “saving themselves”, salvation only comes from God; and HE doesn’t need help to “redeem” HIS creation.

    Explain Gen 4:7 “If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Are you telling me we don’t have power over sin? Cain didn’t have the Jesus when God said the above. Since we are to “rule” over our sin, it can only “devour” us if we let it. Did you forget Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; so by partaking of this fruit they now have the understanding of what is good and what is evil.

     

    Concerning the rest of what you wrote:

    “Holy Spirit” is mentioned three times in the Tanakh Ps 51:11, Is 63:10, Is 63:11 and in each of these instances “holy” is used as an adjective to describe the Spirit. Not once is it used to infer another part of God, because God IS spirit and HE IS holy. The NT however has created this other “entity” of God and has given it a first and last name, “Holy Spirit.”

    September 6, 2024 at 4:03 am#946785
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey There DT,

    I’d like to respond first to this,

    YOU: Funny, coming from someone who makes up reasons to support what they believe (i.e. “virgin birth”).

    ME: What did I make up to support my belief of a virgin birth exactly? What I believe is according to scripture.  Matthew tells us directly that Jesus is biologically a son of Abraham and David through Joseph and he was betrothed to Mary who conceived Jesus. Matthew also tells us that the Holy Spirit came upon her to cause the conception, before Joseph and Mary came together and this was done to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy. In order for Jesus to be a bio son of David through Joseph without Joseph and Mary coming together would take the power of God’s Spirit, which is exactly what we are told. Now you don’t believe Matthew is God’s word, but I do and my belief exists because of it, not from something I made up myself. It is Christian doctrine that made up a purpose for the virgin birth completely changing it from a sign to the house of David concerning kingship, to God impregnating Mary with some hybrid one of a kind being, supposedly existing as fully human but yet also a god at the same time.

    YOU: I have provided many passages supporting what I have written. I have given a list of passages concerning who the Messiah will be, what he will do, and does the Jesus fulfill any of it; and NONE have countered any of them. Here’s the link again 946290, explain when the Jesus while he was here fulfilled all that was written about the Messiah and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:

    “gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “ rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).

    “will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    ME: I prefer to respond to the direct text you gained these from and I assume you have those readily on hand so I would appreciate if you could give those specific passages.

    YOU: So you believe in the doctrine of “original sin”; the belief sin entered into the world and our “sin nature” is due to the “fall of Adam.”

    ME: I do not believe in self righteousness, ONLY GOD IS GOOD and further only He is wise. Without the mercy of His Spirit here and there upon the history of the world, unbeknownst to most of mankind, we would all be living like that of ignorant savages, having no technological advances, no morals or civilized societies, no law and order.

    Man needs God to cleanse him, give him a new heart and place His Spirit within him to cause him to be able to walk in ALL of His ways and thus be worthy to have life everlasting, but even one commandment kept is through the works of God’s Spirit.

    Adam and Eve sinned because they were carnally minded and “to be carnally minded is death”. A human is carnally minded by his very nature, he is ignorant and he knows only to lean on the imagination of his own heart, “the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be”. Only the works of God’s Spirit upon man can cause obedience.

    Sin nature existed before the fall, the carnal mind, but the punishment given to Adam and Eve beyond the curse of the ground and pain in child birth that also befell upon all of mankind, was that of weak mortal flesh that would die and thus the carnal mind now had to serve this weak mortal flesh in order to survive.

    I have much more to say about this but I want to get back to my original point.

    Was Adam the only man to have the ground cursed to which he needed to eat from, was Adam the only man to experience thorns and thistles and till the ground in sweat? Do you also want to tell me that Eve was the only woman to suffer pain in childbirth? My position stands, the punishment given to Adam and Eve was passed down to their children and thus to all of mankind. 

    Just curious DT, what do you think of God commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, where God wanted Abraham to have the heart to actually go through with it? Was God trying to force Abraham to do evil? No of course not. God told Abraham that Isaac would be a father to many nations so Abraham was sacrificing Isaac to show his faith in God where Abraham believed that if he killed Isaac God would have to raise him up in order for God’s word to be true. Jesus also went to the cross unto death in faith that God would raise him from the dead.

    DT, the sin of human sacrifice was specifically related to Israel sacrificing their children in worship to false gods. You want to say that this then equates to it being impossible for God’s will to be that of having one human die for the transgression of others?… even though God’s word says, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”.

    Your position,

    God-don’t sacrifice your children to false gods

    God-make his soul a sin offering

    God-I would NEVER make a soul an offering for sin actually because I told Israel not to sacrifice their children in worship to false gods.

    Not convincing DT.

     

    September 6, 2024 at 6:57 am#946786
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT and all

    What is a sin offering?

    A sin offering was a sacrifice, made according to the Mosaic Law, which provided atonement for sin. The Hebrew phrase for “sin offering” literally means “fault offering.” The sin offering was made for sins committed in ignorance, or unintentional sins. The ritualistic method of the sin offering and the animal to be offered varied depending on the status of the sinner. For example, a high priest who sinned unintentionally would offer a young bull. A king or a prince would offer a young male goat. People in the private sector would sacrifice a young female goat or lamb, unless they were too poor, in which case they were only required to offer two turtledoves or pigeons. Full details of the sin offering and the requirements associated with it are enumerated in Leviticus 4 and Numbers 15.

    Again, the sin offering was sacrificed when a person sinned unintentionally by breaking one of the Lord’s commandments and later realized his guilt (Leviticus 4:27). Sin offerings were also part of the ceremonies on the Day of Atonement, as the high priest made two sin offerings: a bull for himself and a young male goat for the congregation (Leviticus 16:11, 15). In a sin offering, the live animal was brought to the altar, and the sinner was required to lay his hand on the head of the animal (Leviticus 4:29). Then the animal was killed, at which point the priest would take some of the blood and put it on the horns of the altar (verse 30). In some cases, some of the blood was also sprinkled inside the tabernacle (verses 6 and 17). Then all the rest of the blood was poured at the base of the altar (verse 34). The fat of the sin offering was removed and burned on the altar. In some cases, the body of the animal was burned outside the camp (verse 12); in other cases, the meat of the sin offering could be eaten by the priests. “In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven” (verse 35).

    The sin offering was a poignant picture of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. He was a “lamb without blemish” (1 Peter 1:19; cf. Leviticus 4:32) whose precious blood was spilled after being publicly slain. Jesus was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem, just as the sin offering was to be burnt outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12; cf. Leviticus 4:12). Just as the sacrificial lamb makes atonement for unintentional sins, Jesus’ blood made atonement for the sin of any person who realizes his guilt before God and asks for that atonement to be applied to him (John 3:16; Ephesians 1:7). “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Hebrews 9:22).

    Every person has broken the Law of God in one way or another, whether we realize it or not. Humanity is sinful, and we are all guilty before God (Romans 3:23). It must have been painful for sinners under the Mosaic Law to slaughter an innocent animal when they knew they were the ones who had done wrong. In the same way, it is painful for us to admit our guilt and to know that the innocent and holy Son of God took the punishment for our sin. But this salvation God has provided, and it is the only way. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Praise the Lord that sin offerings are no longer required, because we have been redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-offering.html

    God bless

     

    September 6, 2024 at 2:11 pm#946787
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You had said to DT, “Fact is, you or no human being has completely stop sinning,  we all “still” come short of that goal, why?  Because in order for us to completely stop sinning, something must be added to our existence.

    Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what that something is,  God by his “Holy Spirit” must come to dwell in us all, or we can never stop sinning, and until that “fully” takes place no human will ever stop sinning .  Jesus “demonstrated ” , the “WAY”  we must be all truly be saved, and it’s not by our own human efforts, but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit abiding “IN” US.  That is what will cause us to overcome this world and its sins.  There is no other way, and Jesus “demonstrated” that fact to us all.”

    Amen to that!

    September 7, 2024 at 4:04 am#946789
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    The “father” in the above passage does not represent a bio dad, now does it?  This father would thus have seed which are not his bio children, right? These non bio children are spoken of in the below passage.

    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    YOU: Hasn’t God “called” all of mankind? Ezek 18:32 “I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

    God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    ME: DT, the promised Messiah of OT scripture is God’s most significant messenger, he’s God’s right hand, he’s ordained to fulfill God’s will concerning mankind where he will  judge and rule overall the people through God’s Spirit being begotten in him. He is the prophet raised up among brethren like that of Moses, where God said “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

    God tells you that you must put your trust in His Son. The Son of God is your judge and if you do not hearken unto him you will be slain. 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
    3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.  9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    God calls people to believe in His Son and God has required people to believe in the words that He has spoken through His Son. God titles His Son an Everlasting Father and a Prince of Peace, the Son’s children are those whom God called for the Son to be like a father over.

    The Son said that we would be baptized/cleansed as he was and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of and that cup is God’s Spirit. Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Jesus is a man that was born of water and of the Spirit and he now sits at God’s right hand. Believing in Jesus is believing that he is a firstborn of many brethren and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. Jesus is a firstborn of God’s Spirit and the works of God’s Spirit is unto unrelenting faith in God, it is unto righteousness and eternal life. Jesus says that we will be as he is. Believing in the Son is to have faith and hope in God that what God accomplished in Jesus He will accomplish in us. This Son has been appointed as judge and king over God’s kingdom and you are required by God to put your trust in him and believe that the words that he speaks are given to him from God.

     

    September 7, 2024 at 1:41 pm#946790
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    There is only one thing that matters in your response and it has to do with whether the Jesus is the true Messiah or not and every response that doesn’t resolve this is pointless. IS THE JESUS THE TRUE MESSIAH!?!?! This is the only question that matters! If the Jesus doesn’t fulfill one requirement of what is outlined in the Tanakh, can he be the true Messiah? Remember, I didn’t say this; God did thru HIS prophets!

    In every response concerning the validity of the Jesus as being the messiah I have included a link back to the original post outlining what the Tanakh says the Messiah is to be and what he is to do; somehow you missed when I said “here’s the link again” referencing back to post number 946920. That’s neither here nor there, but tells me you aren’t reading what I’m writing.

    For your reading enjoyment here is what I posted originally posted concerning the Jesus being the true Messiah:

    He must be Jewish
    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
    “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)

    To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah; not some improvable, made up in vitro fertilization

    He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son
    “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)

    The genealogy of Joseph states he is not the biological father of Jesus since it was the spirit that came upon Mary. The other genealogy is through Nathan and not Solomon.

    He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
    “And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

    Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

    He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
    “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

    At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

    He will rule at a time of world-wide peace
    “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

    Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

    He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments

    “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

    The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

    He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d
    “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)

    There are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold. In christianity it is taught there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; believe in the trinity or not, you believe in the trinity.

    Please provide the passages within the NT that state the Jesus will be and do the aforementioned when he returns because he obviously didn’t any of this while he was here.

    September 8, 2024 at 7:07 am#946791
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    He must be Jewish
    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
    “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)

    To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah; not some improvable, made up in vitro fertilization

    He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son
    “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)

    ME: Jewish represents that you are of the tribe of Judah, they are one and the same.

    Jesus is biologically Jewish/of the tribe of Judah from both his father and his mother and with his father being a son of Solomon Jesus also fulfills the right to be a king over David’s throne. I have recently stated my position again to you that Matthew 1, whether you believe is God’s word or not, Matthew is in fact telling us that Jesus is genetically a son of Solomon, David and Abraham THROUGH Joseph. This occurred by the power of the Holy Spirit upon Mary as Mary conceived before her and Joseph had come together. The miracle conception was for a SIGN and the sign was to identify a rightful heir to David’s throne involving a promise from God that a man from another tribe other than Judah would not sit on David’s throne.

    You said, “not some improvable, made up in vitro fertilization”, I am assuming you meant “improbable” and of course with God, our all powerful Creator, this is actually a simple task, so in that you are completely false. 

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a SIGN; Behold, a virgin/almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    DT, how is it a SIGN at all, if “almah” is not representing a virgin, doesn’t the fact that it’s a SIGN tell you that this almah would assuredly thus be a virgin?

    I am sure that you also want to say that Jesus doesn’t have the right anyway to be the promised king over David’s throne because Jeconiah is in his genealogy and he has a curse. Even though I believe the curse was lifted isn’t your position that God doesn’t place punishments to a Father onto his sons? But yet, this CURSE God made was directly upon a father’s sons because of the father’s sin.

    YOU:

    He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
    “And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

    Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

    ME: the text says “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel”, have you not heard of the “lost tribes of Israel”? There are 12 tribes of Israel, Judah is only one of them, where are the rest? Those of the tribe of Judah we know that they dwell in Israel and are also dispersed throughout the nations, but where are all the people of the other 11 tribes? Regardless, God is going to have the Messiah gather together all the people of all the tribes to whom have been dispersed together. This occurs when Jesus Christ comes and sits on his father David’s throne.

    YOU:

    He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
    “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

    At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

    ME: 

    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    There is nothing in this text that says the Messiah is to build a third temple.

    We read in 2 Samuel 7 that it was David’s idea to build a temple, a temple for God, a dwelling place for the arch of the covenant. David thought about his house of Cedar and how the arch was behind curtains but he believed it deserved a temple. God’s response to David was to say that He has never asked for a temple in all the time that He dwelled with Israel He was walking with them and further He tells David that He has been with David wherever David has went. Scripture also tells us that God said a temple could be built but David could not build it for he shed too much blood. God promised David that his son would build Him a temple.

    Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet (Isaiah 66:1-2), 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God…22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    tabernacle, also spoken of in Ezekiel 37 means God’s dwelling place, God is everywhere and the place of His rest is to be overall the new heaven and earth, certainly his dwelling place/resting place is not in a temple made of man’s hands. God’s promise is that His dwelling place will be in us, His Spirit is to come and dwell within us. When Jesus Christ returns this is exactly what he is going to do, he is appointed to judge and give the Spirit to the faithful and then destroy the wicked. God’s promise is to be ALL IN ALL.

    YOU:

    He will rule at a time of world-wide peace
    “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

    Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

    ME: OT prophecy is that the Messiah will come and establish peace, which is exactly what Jesus is going to do when he comes. NT teaches that Jesus is going to return at a time our heavenly Father only knows and when our Messiah is sent THEN he will receive his kingship over David’s throne and establish God’s kingdom of peace.  Where on earth did you get the idea that people believe Jesus is ruling right now on earth that we should then see peace? Never heard such an outlandish idea lol. 

    YOU: He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments

    He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d

    ME: Yes, NT scripture quotes Jeremiah 31, that “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people” (Hebrews 8:10).  God’s Spirit will come to dwell in the people which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways WHEN Jesus Christ comes to be our king.

     

    September 8, 2024 at 11:06 am#946792
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: There is only one thing that matters in your response and it has to do with whether the Jesus is the true Messiah or not and every response that doesn’t resolve this is pointless. IS THE JESUS THE TRUE MESSIAH!?!?! This is the only question that matters! If the Jesus doesn’t fulfill one requirement of what is outlined in the Tanakh, can he be the true Messiah? Remember, I didn’t say this; God did thru HIS prophets!

    ME: Wait, come again? 

    Is Jesus the true Messiah, I say yes and that Isaiah 53 is speaking of Jesus. You say that is impossible because God commanded for children not to be sacrificed so God would never put His Son’s soul to death for the transgression of others.   I pointed out there is quite the difference between God commanding Israel not to murder their children in worship of false gods verses God putting to death one man for the transgressions of others where that man is raised shortly thereafter back to life. This is now pointless you say, well that is convenient for you! You also say that God would never inflict a person because of the sins of another person, so Jesus could never be put to death for the sins of others, but when I point out that the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin was given also to their children and their children’s children thus all of mankind, this is also now pointless?

    and further, you won’t tell me who the “righteous servant” of Isaiah 53 is, nor can you explain how, “thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin” doesn’t actually equate to “thou shalt make his soul and offering for sin”.

    How can you not see that this righteous servant of Isaiah 53 would be the Messiah of Isaiah 42 to whom God gives His Spirit to and calls to righteousness to fulfill His covenant and be for a light? How about Isaiah 49: 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    Would salvation not begin with God forgiving transgressions?  

    Let’s align this with Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Jeremiah 31:34 has nothing to do with, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”

    “He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

    “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin”

    “because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

    Salvation has nothing to do with sins being forgiven? The righteous servant dying for the transgression of others had nothing to do with God forgiving those transgressions?

     

    September 9, 2024 at 1:38 am#946794
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….Good post, Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……..gene

    September 13, 2024 at 12:42 pm#946803
    carmel
    Participant

    .

    September 14, 2024 at 1:57 pm#946804
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Jewish represents that you are of the tribe of Judah, they are one and the same.

    Me: Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish and has nothing to do with tribal association. We can say the Jesus’ mother is Jewish, thus making him Jewish. The contention is his daddy, because the father is who determines tribal association (Numbers 1:2). So being Jewish doesn’t mean your from the tribe of Judah. Guess again.

     

    You: I am assuming you meant “improbable”

    Me: NO, I meant IMPROVABLE; because you cannot prove “in vitro” fertilization is what happened. This is a creation of your mind and is the most “logical” solution for you because we cannot have God impregnating mortal women because that’s what happened in the pagan religions of the day (Roman and Greek).

    You go on to quote Is 7:14 as proof; yet, when one reads this chapter and the next, it has nothing to do with any messianic prophecy. The “sign” you so adamantly want to say is the “birth of the child”, and somehow pointing to the Jesus, isn’t the sign; if you read what is actually written the “sign” is before the boy knows to reject evil and choose good the kingdoms coming against King Ahaz will fall. Christianity will reject God’s words in favor of their religion. You literally have to ignore and turn a blind eye to what is written before and after verse 14 to believe it speaks of the Jesus 700 years later! It’s all about CONTEXT!!!

     

    You: the text says “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel”, have you not heard of the “lost tribes of Israel”? There are 12 tribes of Israel, Judah is only one of them, where are the rest? Those of the tribe of Judah we know that they dwell in Israel and are also dispersed throughout the nations, but where are all the people of the other 11 tribes? Regardless, God is going to have the Messiah gather together all the people of all the tribes to whom have been dispersed together. This occurs when Jesus Christ comes and sits on his father David’s throne.

    Me: “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Not sure if you know this but the nation of Israel was fractured into two kingdoms, the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern (Judah). Please provide a NT passage that states the Jesus will gather the Israelite’s back to their land.

     

    Look up “almah” and “betulah” and explain the differences.

     

    You: You quote Ezek 37:26,27 and say “There is nothing in this text that says the Messiah is to build a third temple.”

    Me: I should have started at verse 24 and ended at 28 to put it into perspective:

    24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” Are you saying God is going to physically build the temple or will his servant David (aka Messiah) the king? There is more one can glean from this passage too. It says the “nations” (not just the believers in the Jesus of nations) will know it is God who sanctifies Israel once the temple is built. It is God who has set Israel apart from all other nations. Nothing about “christians” who believe in the Jesus.

    This passage also proves Paul is a liar and an enemy of God when he states “there is neither Jew or Gentile”; sounds like the Jewish people have been set apart from all other nations and there IS a difference in God’s eyes.

     

    Me: Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

    You: OT prophecy is that the Messiah will come and establish peace, which is exactly what Jesus is going to do when he comes. NT teaches that Jesus is going to return at a time our heavenly Father only knows and when our Messiah is sent THEN he will receive his kingship over David’s throne and establish God’s kingdom of peace. Where on earth did you get the idea that people believe Jesus is ruling right now on earth that we should then see peace? Never heard such an outlandish idea lol.

    Me: Please re-read, nowhere did I suggest “the Jesus is ruling now”; I asked two questions and neither implied the Jesus was “ruling today.” Comprehension is your friend! Read what I actually wrote and not what you believe I did.

     

    You: God’s Spirit will come to dwell in the people which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways WHEN Jesus Christ comes to be our king.

    Me: That is NOT what Jer 31:31-34 says “declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.” There is nothing about God spirit “dwelling” in anyone. Upon who’s heart will God place HIS law? Mankind!?!?!? Verse 31 says it’s the “house of Israel and the house of Judah”; how do you get all of mankind? According to christianity we aren’t under the “law.” So what “law” is going to be placed within them? If the “law” is anything other than what was originally given to the Israeli nation, it would mean our unchanging God changed.

     

    The major theme of what you wrote and believe is the Jesus will accomplish all what is prophesied about the Messiah when he “returns”; however, nothing of what you wrote did you prove he is the true Messiah. All you gave where inferences provided to you by church teachings and none of it is backed up with passages from your NT. Did any of the prophets speak about a messiah that showed up and did nothing that was written about him, but would at a later date?

    September 14, 2024 at 1:59 pm#946805
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: I pointed out there is quite the difference between God commanding Israel not to murder their children in worship of false gods verses God putting to death one man for the transgressions of others where that man is raised shortly thereafter back to life.

    Me: HE murdered his son for the “transgressions of others”, like a bull on an altar? On what plane does that make sense to you? There is so much wrong in what you said. Isn’t murder, murder and called a sin? Are you saying God can sin? Still waiting for when God changed and said the innocent can be responsible for the actions of the guilty.

     

    You: you won’t tell me who the “righteous servant” of Isaiah 53 is.

    Me: I’ve requested your patience; apparently, you have none. No where in this chapter does it say “messiah” or “suffering” servant; christianity extrapolates and inserts this “messiah” idea because the verbiage sounds like “what happened” to the Jesus. You claimed the “our” is the disciples and are speaking on behalf of mankind. Berean says it’s the prophets; who’s right? Of course you are! Let’s save some time; the “servant” is mentioned in Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 and it’s not a reference to a “messiah”, let alone the Jesus; but a reference to Jacob and Israel. Please explain how the servant changed from Jacob and Israel to your Jesus in 53 when in the chapters leading up to chapter 53 say the servant is Jacob and Israel?

    Who are the “witnesses” and “my servant” in Isa 43:10; start reading in verse 1.

    You like the “servant” of 42:1, but your “servant” is also blind and deaf in verse 19…hmmmm.

    In Jer 30:10, Jacob is called “my servant.”

    In Jer 46:27&28 Jacob is called “my servant” again.

    Read Luke 1:54 “He has helped Israel his servant”, once again the servant is explicitly stated to be Israel.

    Why do you think I keep asking who is speaking where in Isa 52:13-53:12; knowing this helps with understanding the entire passage. In 52:13-15 the speaker is stating the servant will be elevated and this will “startle” many nations leaving the nations kings speechless. The kings then gain an “understanding” to the elevation of the servant. 52:15 says “kings shall shut their mouths For they shall see what has not been told them, and they shall consider with full attention what they have not heard.” The next response 53:1 can only be the kings of nations asking who will believe what they came to understand (“our report”). Please explain how the “our” could possible be the disciples or the prophets speaking in 53:1; how does one go from shocked kings to disciples/prophets giving an unbelievable report? Do you begin reading a book in the middle?

     

    You respond with “come again” to my statement of it being pointless to speak on any other topic if the Jesus isn’t the true Messiah. What does anything else matter if the Jesus isn’t the true Messiah? If we’re being honest, everything else is moot and is a waste of energy. I have given scriptural examples showing the Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah and you give me church teachings. The church can’t even agree with what your NT says; meanwhile each denomination claiming the “spirit has revealed.” NONSENSE, if the “spirit of God” has revealed something, everyone would have the same understanding; but you don’t. Why doesn’t that cause you pause?

     

    You: Would salvation not begin with God forgiving transgressions?

    Me: You couldn’t have said it more perfect, salvation does begin with God; explain why I would need the Jesus if the source of salvation comes from God?

    September 15, 2024 at 7:25 am#946807
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Your response shows up as a period on the forum; what I received in the email update is HTML garbage. Your “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” writing style falls flat if it can’t be read. Learn how to write! You may also want to check your coding for errors since it didn’t post properly.

    This is what I received and will not waste my time with it:

    Screenshot from 2024-09-12 23-13-12

    September 16, 2024 at 11:10 am#946813
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Accusing me of not continuing our “conversation” because I “don’t like your format”,….

    couldn’t be further from the truth.

    Me: if you wanted to be honest and also TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF why haven’t you been more specific and posted my own words, instead of the above,?

    I have proven to you specifically black on white, THAT MY WRITING FORMAT WAS NOT TRULY AN ISSUE AS SUCH for not responding anymore to my posts, and I DID SO BY CUTTING AND PASTE  YOUR OWN POSTS!

    I will specifically repeat; You are not in the position to contradict anymore my spiritually focussed posts, WHICH THE TANAKH, SIMPLY HIDDEN, IS CRAMMED WITH, thus, you made use of my writing format as a scapegoat!!!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    Where did I accuse you that you don’t want to continue with our conversation because you don’t like my format?

    Just read hereunder again what I posted to you:

    Do you want me to believe that you don’t want to respond because of my writing format?

    YOU MUST BE JOKING!

    What if my post WRITTEN IN THAT FORMAT was ATTRIBUTED to a Scripture within the Tanakh proficient to you, I mean physically and literally?

    WOULDN’T YOU HAVE RESPONDED AND WHILE IGNORING COMPLETELY MY WRITING FORMAT, CONTRADICTED ME INSTEAD?

    You: I have asked you multiple times to change your writing style because fragmented sentences are annoying to following,

    WHAT MULTIPLE TIMES?????

    Unless, in this regard, you specifically cut and paste your comments, from my end I consider what you said above just simply lies.

    In my last post, I produced specifically more than enough of your responses, and made clear that throughout the eighteen months of your participation in these forums, you never DIRECTLY SPECIFICALLY and CONSISTENTLY asked me to change my writing format, as you did in the post before the last,! THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER PRODUCED ANYTHING TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF!

    You: the constant “I’m superior to everyone” mentality, while obnoxious, I can handle; but paints you as a self absorbed, know-it-all most will avoid.

    First and foremost, the above applies EQUIVALENTLY also to you I’m afraid, especially concerning the Tanakh, AGAIN, always from your  PHYSICAL perspectives though, OBSOLETE; particularly Isaiah 52/53, and also all what you addressed and asked Gene, hereunder in italics:

    Please find in the Tanakh where God speaks of this “millennial age.” You still haven’t answered my question if the Jesus fulfills what the Tanakh says the true Messiah will be and what he will do.

    Please provide the NT passages that confirm he will accomplish the following when he returns:

    “the Jesus will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe the “obsolete commands” of God.

    “the Jesus will will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    YOUR WRITING ABOVE IS VOID, AND UNLESS YOU PRODUCE THE RESPECTIVE SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE OF THE ABOVE, ACCORDING TO YOUR POOR MENTALITY, WITH EVERY RESPECT, THE MESSAIAH’S PHYSICAL TASK WHEN HE COMES, IT WON’T BE POSSIBLE TO REVEAL THE TRUE “SPIRITUAL” PROPHECIES THE TANAHK IS REFERENCING, AND ALSO, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WHETHER JESUS AFTER ALL, HAD ALREADY FULFILLED;

    AGAIN “SPIRITUALLY”, SINCE HE MANIFESTED AND REVEALED GOD THE FATHER WHO IS SPIRIT,

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    You: the constant “I’m superior to everyone” mentality, while obnoxious, I can handle; but paints you as a self absorbed, know-it-all most will avoid.

    It is within your task to make sure that I don’t behave likewise.

    Do you know how?

    Simply by contradicting specifically my comments.

    Till then mine stands!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    You: With this understanding, would you continue a conversation with this type of individual?

    As a “DESIRETRUTH”, FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST and His truth, who you do not believe never mind receive, I would ignore the writing format completely, and once the conversation is to my aptitude, while focussing on the content, for the sake of TRUTH and LOVE, I never quit at all costs, especially when the individual in any way, is a direct opponent, my understanding ASSERTS me that the individual is in error,  and while I manipulate the opponent’s mind BY ALL JUSTIFIED MANNERS possible, I remain in the conversation, till my opponent somehow change his views. UNLESS HE IS DEMORALIZED AND SIMPLE QUIT!

    THE TROUBLE WITH YOU DT, IS THAT YOU WANT US CHRISTIANS TO ACCEPT THE IMMATURE OBSOLETE PROCESS OF THE MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD SPIRITUALLY DEAD OF THE OT!

    WITHOUT A TRUE GOD!

    WHILE YOU CALL THE TRUTH OF OUR NEW SPIRITUAL ETERNAL LIFE PROCESS IN CHRIST

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    A MERE LIE!

    NOW ON THIS PLANET, THERE’S ONLY ONE WAY FOR ANYTHING TO BE CONSIDERED AS TRUE, AND THAT IS

    TANGIBLY!

    1John1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life: 2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us:

    You: Also, why do you believe your writing style is “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” and not annoying to me and

    Annoying you, as I mentioned, only if you were, as it seems, by this particular post ONLY, A LIE,  and FELT some inferiority vis-à-vis my SPIRITUAL messages, BUT FOR SURE AS I DEMONSTRATED ABOVE, YOU ARE NOT UPSET JUST BY MY WRITING FORMAT, AGAIN ONLY IN THIS PARTICULAR POST???

    HMMMMM!

    I REPEAT:

    WHAT IF MY CONTENT SOMEHOW WAS WITHIN YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND IN A WAY, YOU WERE IN THE POSITION TO CONTRADICT IT, WOULD YOU HAVE ACTED LIKEWISE?

    READ THIS SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER, AND TELL ME WHERE AND HOW IT IS DIRECTED TO “ISRAEL!!!

    DON’T RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS, AGAIN TO REMIND YOU; MY PERSPECTIVES ARE SPIRITUAL!

    Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, and that preacheth peace: of him that sheweth forth good, that preacheth salvation, that saith to SION:

    Thy God shall reign!

    8The voice of thy watchmen: they have lifted up their voice, they shall praise together: for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall convert SION.

    9Rejoice, and give praise together, O ye deserts of JERUSALEM: for the Lord hath comforted his people: he hath redeemed JERUSALEM. 9Rejoice, and give praise together, O ye deserts of JERUSALEM: for the Lord hath comforted his people:
    he hath redeemed JERUSALEM.

    WHO IS “SION”

    WHO IS ” JERUSALEM”

    YOU: why do you care so much that our conversation continues?

    ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO ARE THIRSTY FOR TRUTH, THEN THE LOVE FOR THE CHURCH OF OUR

    LORD GOD JESUS CHRIST

    THE ONLY TRUE PHYSICAL GOD ON EARTH!

    1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Now just to mention one from your PHYSICAL OBSOLETE PERSPECTIVES ABOVE TO Gene:

    “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

     

    DT. SPIRITUALY, JESUS ALREADY FUFILLED THE ABOVE!

     

    More details in the next post!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    September 16, 2024 at 6:06 pm#946815
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    First, would you like a little cheese with your whine? Maybe a cracker to wash it down? Me saying your writing style s*cks:

    As a side note, can you please write in a normal fashion; your format is extremely distracting and hard to follow. Stop with the all caps, there is no need to constantly yell.

    Your writing format is to difficult to follow and I don’t have time to read one liners and decipher what you’re trying to say, try paragraph format, it’s how the rest of the world actually writes.

    You: PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD! NO? (copy and pasted in all your yelling glory)

    You: DT. ANSWER PLEASE: WHO SAVED THE GENTILES? (just have to yell…)

    Then you go on to say (yelling of course) “LET’S YOU AND ME DISCOVER THE TRUTH!”

    Me: always with the yelling…WHY?!?

    Then you say, yelling of course, “ WHAT I WROTE IS PURE TRUTH, AND IT STANDS!”

    writing in all caps means your yelling and is rude

    If you believe I have not read what you write, that’s because I don’t; if you would like me to, write normal.

    Your writing format is one of the main reasons I choose not to respond to you, let alone read all you write.

    Your right I haven’t criticized your writing style…ever…and no, I won’t waste my time going back over a years+ worth of writing on the forum to link each one. If you want and have this need to be fulfilled, go find it yourself! Have you received the hint yet?!? You style of writing is horrific and obnoxious and I am done with it. I don’t know how much more plainer it gets!

     

    Second, to claim you are this “super spiritual being” and the “spirit of God” has revealed thing to you, explain why no one has the same “spiritual” understanding as you?

     

    Me: Also, why do you believe your writing style is “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” and not annoying to me

    You: Annoying you, as I mentioned, only if you were, as it seems, by this particular post ONLY, A LIE

    Me: So not only are you at one with God, you magically have the power to know what annoys me. You are truly an amazing being…Jesus is that you!?!?! WAIT, never mind; Jesus isn’t divine. Additionally, who speaks this way “as I mentioned, only if you were, as it seems, by this particular post ONLY”?!?! You couldn’t put this into a single phrase; you had to make it in four separate clauses?!?! WHY!! Do you think this makes you sound more intelligent? Articulating a concise thought make you sound like you know what you’re talking about; when one gets wordy, they sound like an id10t.

     

    You: Do you want me to believe that you don’t want to respond because of my writing format? YOU MUST BE JOKING!

    Me: Not joking at all. You’re writing format sux and annoys me! And I tire of it as it’s one of my peeves; people who can’t communicate in the written format…that’s you!

     

    You: In my last post, I produced specifically more than enough of your responses, and made clear that throughout the eighteen months of your participation in these forums, you never DIRECTLY SPECIFICALLY and CONSISTENTLY asked me to change my writing format, as you did in the post before the last,! THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER PRODUCED ANYTHING TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF!

    Me: Read above! I shouldn’t have to “justify” anything; I’ve already written it! Sorry you couldn’t recall me saying it. Is that why you demanded that I use the “me and you” format when replying to your posts?

     

    You: DON’T RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS, AGAIN TO REMIND YOU; MY PERSPECTIVES ARE SPIRITUAL!

    Me: Keep telling yourself that! Still and always with the YELLING…so rude!

     

    You: THE ONLY TRUE PHYSICAL GOD ON EARTH!

    Me: YELL, YELL, AND YELL SOME MORE!!! Jesus isn’t God and isn’t the true Messiah (post #946290 that I have posted a number of times but you were to lazy to find or read back a little and find what I posted to Jodi)

     

    You: “the Jesus will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem” DT. SPIRITUALY, JESUS ALREADY FUFILLED THE ABOVE!

    Me: When? (of course with more yelling!!!!)

     

    The Tanakh is the indisputable foundation to the NT, prove the NT against the Tanakh! Prove the Jesus fulfilled what the Tanakh said about the Messiah! Prove what you believe is truth.

    If you don’t respond to this in paragraph format and without all your yelling, you will not receive another reply from me (this is the final straw, I’m done) and it will have nothing to do with me NOT being able to debate you (I’ve debated more intelligent!!), but everything to do with you not being able to communicate in a standard format and me not wanting to decipher everything you write because it’s in your “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” format. Are you having a hard time there is someone in the world who doesn’t care for your writing style? Maybe I’m the only one willing to tell the truth about how horrid it is.

    September 17, 2024 at 2:14 am#946816
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT,  you said……Me: HE murdered his son for the “transgressions of others”, like a bull on an altar? On what plane does that make sense to you? There is so much wrong in what you said. Isn’t murder, murder and called a sin? Are you saying God can sin? Still waiting for when God changed and said the innocent can be responsible for the actions of the guilty.

    Me….GOD NEVER MURDERED HIS son Jesus,  that decision was always up to Jesus,  But God did want or “willed” for him to have enough “FAITH”  in him,  to offer his life as a sacrifice, for, (because of), the sins of the world.  Jesus said clearly himself he had the power to lay down his body and to restore it again,  he also said that he could call down 12 legions of angels to come to his aid if he wanted to.  What Jesus did was to “DEMONSTRATE ” to us all, his “FAITH” in God the father,  Just as Abraham demonstrated his “FAITH” IN God,  by willing to offer up his son in obedience to the command or “WILL” , of God.

    There was no murder ever committed by God, it was all a voluntary  sacrifice on Jesus’ part. That is why he is “exalted” above every creature in heaven and earth, because his “FAITH” in God the Father caused him to pored out his “SOUL” unto death.

    Jesus proved his commitment to the “Will” of God, by his “Faith”,  the same thing is required of all of GOD’S,  “faithful” children. We must all come to put God the Fathers “WILL” ahead of our “WILLS”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

     

     

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