John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,801 through 25,820 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946718
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Have you noticed you haven’t answered whether or not you nailed the Jesus to the cross? Apparently it is a difficult question to answer.

    Did you notice you have deflected to another topic? I can only surmise this tactic is being used to push the conversation away from what you refuse to answer. Which I will not be baited into and will pull it back to my original question. Did you put the Jesus on the cross; can you give me a “yes” or “no” to this question or are you ashamed of what you believe?

    #946719
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    The chief priests, the elders and the high priest plotted and demanded that Jesus be arrested and put to death, but it was the Romans that did the actually deed.

    However, Jesus could have saved himself, but he obeyed God who demanded he go to the cross and die.

    So far we have some Jews, some Romans, God and Jesus himself all responsible in one way or another.

    Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.

    DT, who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?

    #946720
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You still have not said you personally nailed the Jesus to the cross…fascinating! Let your yes be yes and your no be no!

    #946721
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    No I did not personally nail Jesus to the cross.

    That isn’t even possible.

    Who does the “our” represent and who is the “righteous servant” in Isaiah 53?

    #946722
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You know that isn’t what I was asking; did your “personal sin” nail the Jesus to the cross? Why do you refuse to answer this question?

    #946723
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…..yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified.   If there had been no sin in the world then Jesus would not had to die , to demonstrate to all human kind that we can live without sin in our lives.  HE “DEMONSTRATED” , to all mankind what is required of us all, in order to live a sinless life,  He was the “first” human being to actually live a sinless life.  We must all grow until we all come to the “EXACT” FULL MEASURE AND STATURE OF Jesus Christ, by the exact same way he overcame the world we must also overcome it.

    Jesus did not payoff anyone’s sin debt, God forgives us based on our identity TO THE “WAY” we live, with the Holy Spirit of God guiding our live, exactly as it did Jesus the Christ,  Jesus demonstrated to us all the only “WAY” to eternal life, and it is the “EXACT” same way he lived, by “FAITH” in the LIVING GOD. the exact same Faith he had.
    Therefore he said,  “whosoever overcomes the world “EVEN” as I have ” , I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom” , “EVEN”, as I have overcome, and am sit down in my fathers kingdom.
    Notice the words,  “EVEN”,  as I have”.

    We are all called to “repent” , And conform. to the “WAY” JESUS LIVED, in “FAITH” and obedience, to God the Father> Jesus’ life and death, was   “NECESSARY” in-order  to “DEMONSTRATE”, TO US ALL, how a human being can be forgiven and accepted by God the Father, we must “ALL” , conform to the “EXACT”, “IMAGE” OF JESUS CHRIST, the true ‘MESSIAH’ of God.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    #946724
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified.

    Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?

    If our sins are what put the Jesus on the cross, his death was for our sins or as you say “because of” or sins. Either prepositions fails because if the Jesus died “for” the purpose of our sins, it would mean he was a human sacrifice and God said that’s a no-no. If the Jesus died “because of” our sins, that means a innocent man took on the guilt of the wicked and God said that’s a no-no. So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.

    Read Ezek 18:19-32 and what did God say about wickedness, repentance, and obedience. Still waiting for how the Jesus can be the Messiah when he never fulfilled anything spoken about who and what he is to be.

    #946725
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….”Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?”

    Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head?  I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>,  he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right  relationship with God the Father.
    HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.  

    Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he”  lives) for my sake, will save it.

    DT, go figure that out and the fog in you Brain might start to clear up.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

    #946727
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Apparently what I wrote went over your head. God said the wicked are responsible for their wickedness; which we agree upon. HOWEVER, you have yet to explain the purpose of the Jesus’ death and what it accomplished. If sin put the Jesus on the cross, his death had to do something otherwise it was for nothing.

    You obviously DIDN’T read the Ezek passage because you are still stuck on the Jesus.

    What you wrote is a smorgasbord of “what the what”!! “Faith and Obedience” will make you “at one” with God; AND this is “atonement”?!?!!? What is this religion you follow???? With all due respect, you’re starting to sound like Carmel with these coo-coo for coco puffs responses.

    #946728
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head?  I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>,  he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right  relationship with God the Father.
    HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.

    Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he”  lives) for my sake, will save it.

    DT……Nothing coo-coo about it, for those who “love the truth”.   If you reject Jesus and the words he spoke to us,  you also reject the one (GOD) who sent him.  DT , you remind me of Kora, who had the same attitude against Moses , as you have against Jesus,  how did that end for him?.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……gene

     

    #946730
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Once again you’ve avoided answering what the purpose of the Jesus’ death served? God says no one can be punished/be responsible for others wickedness as the sin belongs to the offender; yet, you claim the wickedness of mankind put the Jesus on the cross. Explain what his death did for mankind and continuing to point out how the Jesus lived doesn’t explain the reason for his death.

    #946731
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Have you read have Ezek 18:19-32 yet? If not, why not? God is speaking to his creation, HE desires that all turn from their wickedness, follow HIS statutes, and return to HIM. Nothing in this passage speaks of a man one must believe in to come before our creator, the lie of christianity. You are not “filthy rags” before our Heavenly Father and need a “mediator” as Paul says; HE created you and are therefore loved by HIM.

    Do you love your own children less when they do wrong?

    #946742
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    who is responsible for Jesus going to the cross?

    “Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.”

    Who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?

    Thank you

    #946743
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.

    ME: Absolutely aligns, there is one to whom the LORD makes his soul an offering for sin.

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…11…shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

     

    #946745
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    We WILL get to Isaiah 53, but in a new thread as time permits; so patience is required.

    Christendom believes it was sin that put the Jesus to death; which means the “sinless, guiltless, and innocent” Jesus took on the wickedness of the guilty and was put to death for the guilty. However in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??

    What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?

    Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?

    #946747
    Berean
    Participant

    But he was wounded for our transgressions👈, he was bruised 👉for our iniquities:

    the chastisement of our peace was upon him;

    WHO ELSE BUT JESUS ​​COULD HAVE FULFILLED THIS PROPHECY???

    #946748
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Who’s the “our”? It’s the same “our” who begins speaking in verse one about a “report” no one will believe.

    What does chapter 52 say, the chapter that leads into 53 and puts what is written into context (specifically the last three verses)? Do you know what chapter 54 says?

    I’ll ask again, can you start in the middle of a novel and know what happening before the point you began reading? Obviously you couldn’t know; so why do christians do it with their “inspired word of God” and claim to know what God is trying to tell them when they aren’t reading passages in the context they have been written?

    Think about it…

    #946749
    Berean
    Participant

    Who hath believed our report?

    Prophetically, Isaiah anticipates at least two things here. First, he anticipates how strange and contradictory it seems that this suffering Messiah, whose face is marred more than any man, is at the same time salvation and cleansing to the nations. Second, he anticipates the rejection of the Messiah, that many would not believe our report.

    To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    In this context of the Messiah’s suffering and agony, this line seems out of place. The arm of the LORD is a picture of His strength, power, and might. Yet we will see a Messiah weak and suffering. But the strength, power, and might of God will be expressed in the midst of this suffering, seemingly weak Messiah.

     

    John 12 [38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

    Rom.10 16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    [17] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    #946750
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Nowhere in anything you wrote did you say who the “our” is; our is a plural pronoun and would signify multiple people who are owning what they did to the “servant.” Who does the voice represent/speaking in verses 1-9?

    I do appreciate the response, but can you support with the Tanakh what you are claiming Isaiah is “anticipating”?

    Next you speak on the “arm of the Lord”; the passage speaks in a past tense not a future “To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed”? This speaker is looking to the past and this “revealing” has already happened, and therefore cannot be a future event. Take a look at Ex 6:6, Deut 4:34, Deut 7:19, Deut 26:8, Ps 44:3, Ps 77:15, Ps 98:1, Isa 30:30, Isa 33:2; after reading these passages to whom has the “arm of the Lord” been revealed?

    #946751
    carmel
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: Didn’t read a word since you don’t know how to write in paragraph format…

    ME: DESIRETRUTH????

    This is the biggest lie I’ve ever read in these forums!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    You: either learn how to properly communicate in the written format, and I will respond OR don’t, and I won’t. It’s that simple!

    Do you want me to believe that you don’t want to respond because of my writing format?

    YOU MUST BE JOKING!

    Let’s analyze things FROM OUR PREVIOUS POSTS.

    I start with My previous post to the last. It was more than double the size of the last,  crammed with capitals, and according to you; YELLING, POOR WRITING ETIQUETTE, AND IS EXTREMELY RUDE!!!

    How come, though you did reply, you never said anything  CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT???

    HMMMMMM!!!

    Now let’s VERIFY and go back to square one!

    Page 1182 is the page where and when you introduced yourself to these forums eighteen months ago! On that particular page, I posted

     EIGHT LONG POSTS in the same WRITING FORMAT etc, etc, etc, of which the last one was the first reply I posted directly to you.

    AGAIN NOT A MERE HINT WAS MENTIONED IN YOUR VERY FIRST RESPONSE, #942393, CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!

    HMMMMMM!!!

    Now to page 1184  Post #942418

    You: @ Carmel,
    For curiosity’s sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?

    Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give. For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces. I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.

    The above is your first post sent directly to me eighteen months ago!

    By the way, just to mention, we are very, very similar regarding our earnings, THE OPPOSITE OF OUR BELIEF, as apart from that I do almost all what you do; I am precisely also a self-employed/general carpenter. 

    Now, before your introduction to these forums, you did see my writing format, and presumably, as you mentioned, for the sake of familiarity with all of us and our belief, you also did read some of my posts as you also did see and read others’, the fact that you said so above and became curious about me! May I ask you; is it by any chance because my writing WAS NOT IN PARAGRAPH FORMAT, hence, so prominent that you became curious about me, or because of THE CONTENT OF MY POSTS?

    NEVERTHELESS, AGAIN, YOU DIDN’T MENTION A MERE HINT REGARDING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!

    WHY DIDN’T YOU IF MY WRITING FORMAT WAS SO EMBARRASSING FOR YOU? WHY IT DID TAKE YOU EIGHTEEN MONTHS TO AFFIRM SUCH A DRASTIC DECISION?

    AFTER ALL YOUR TRUE AND VITAL INTEREST IS YOUR DESIRE FOR TRUTH! NO?

    IS IT TRUE, THEN, THAT MY WRITING FORMAT IS THE ONLY OBSTACLE THAT MAKES IT SO UNCOMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO READ JUST THIS PARTICULAR POST ONLY, AND THAT YOU BECOME EXTREMELY UPSET AND MOST IMPORTANTLY NOT READY TO RESPOND ANYMORE UNLESS I REFORM ACCORDING TO YOUR WISH?

    MR. DT. In this case, GIVEN ALL THAT I MADE CLEAR TO YOU ABOVE, THE WAY I SEE IT, you are too confronted with THE CONTENT OF THE POST, MORE THAN THE WRITING FORMAT. On the other hand, I agree,  thanks to the unrestricted HTML content, and ESPECIALLY, the way I intentionally produced and presented it to you in that manner, is so emphatic, expressive, and impactful. Thus, psychologically in general, apart from that it did hit you so strongly more than expected, FOR SURE NOT JUST DUE TO THIS POST ONLY, it did also finally leave an impact on your behaviour as it revealed YOUR DISREGARD AND REJECTING OF THE SPIRITUAL CONCEPT AND ASPECT OF THE OT SCRIPTURE, most vital CONCERNING GOD’S SPIRITUAL HIDDEN TASK OF REDEMPTION, well pronounced by Augustine hereunder:

     “The new is in the old concealed; old is in the new revealed.”

    God all-knowing, from the beginning of this particular world subject to death! Genesis 1:2

    The fact that PHYSICALLY, THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD OF THE OT, SATANIC FROM EVE’S SIN is OBSOLETE! 

    THE FACT  THAT THE EGYPTIANS, SATAN, AND HIS DEMONS ON EARTH, AFTER THE JEWS, THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, OF THE OT. WERE REDEEMED BY MOSES, BECAME ALSO OBSOLETE!

    CONSEQUENTLY, CHRISTIANS, THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD IN CHRIST, THROUGH JESUS’ FLESH AND BLOOD,

    THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    ACQUIRED ETERNAL LIFE!

    BACK TO OUR ARGUMENT,  generally, my post disturbed your mind so badly, to the extent, that you took advantage of the written format, used it as a scapegoat, and not only rejected the content of the post in general BUT ALSO OPTED  NOT TO RESPOND ANYMORE TO MY POSTS, PARTICULARLY AND INTENTIONALLY ANY PART OF THIS POST!!!

    MR. DT, THE CONTENT of this particular post, FOR SURE NOT YOUR FAMILIARITY, THE FACT THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THAT KIND OF FORMAT WERE TOO MUCH FOR YOU TO CONTRADICT AND IT SIMPLY BECAME THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR YOU. Frustrated and demoralized not capable enough to focus on the content, you opted to focus instead, both on me and on my writing format.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    LET’S REFER AGAIN TO YOUR LAST TWO COMMENTS:

    THAT IN THE NEXT POST, WHETHER YOU REPLY OR NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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