John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #946649
    Jodi
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    Hi Berean,

    Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior, we can certainly discuss Hebrews 1. I would appreciate it if you could actually read the full content of this post and reply specifically to the passages within that I have provided directly or have spoken of. By all means give additional scriptures as you reply to your position specifically regarding the passages provided below.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    First of all, according to the above God’s Son didn’t pre-exist providing God’s word, it is “in these last days” he spoke God’s word. This is a huge problem for you Berean.

    We are reading God’s word regarding who spoke God’s word and when they spoke God’s word. Acts also speaks to this and identifies God’s Son as the promised prophet of Deuteronomy 18.

    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    and let’s look at what Acts 7 says,

    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

    46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
    47 But Solomon built him an house.
    48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
    49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
    50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
    51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
    52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
    53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
    54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Acts exposes your doctrine completely false Berean in more ways than one just in these two chapters of Acts!

    1. Jesus didn’t pre-exist, he is the promised prophet whom God raised up from among his brethren.

    2. Jesus didn’t make heaven and earth, our Most High God did.

    3. Jesus received glory AS the Son of Man who was exalted to God’s right hand and this Son of Man is returning to bring forth the restitution of all things.

    4. This was all God’s word SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

    5. GLORY for this MAN thus had been with God in His word FROM THE BEGINING.

    Acts we see directly aligns with Hebrews 1:1-2 and we can also directly apply it with the very next verses.

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The Son of Man, whom God had raised up from among his brethren to speak God’s word, was exalted to God’s right hand and was MADE much better than the angels and obtained a more excellent name by an inheritance/a promise, for God had declared all this since the world began, there was glory that was of God promised for this man, even before the world was.

    Brightness of his glory– according to Isaiah 42, the Spirit would come and abode in him, a calling to righteousness for to be a LIGHT!

    Express image of his person-  “Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” and “but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” and “Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world”

    Upholding all things by the word of his power– “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”

    Let’s go back to this, “whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY whom also he made the worlds”

    BY is the word Dia- yes, one definition is by means of but another common definition is BY REASON OF.

    Berean, scripture can have NO CONTRADICTIONS!

    We are directly given in Acts that Jesus is NOT our Creator on the contrary he is a man of the creation ordained by the Creator.

    We are directly given that the Most High made heaven and earth WITH HIS HANDS and THIS Creator had promised for a prophet to come, Jesus Christ.

    ALSO we are given God’s purpose for why He had created all things in the first place and it all centers around a seed of David who would be raised up to be a savior of the world through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him, around him being a firstborn of many, around a Son of Man being exalted to our Creator’s right hand, around him being a king sitting on his father David’s throne judging the world and bringing forth peace ruling in righteousness through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him.

    ALSO this was all God’s word before the world was and was spoken by the prophets since the world began, so it is BIBLICAL FACT that the man whom God had appointed as an heir of all things is also the man to whom God BY REASON OF (DIA) had made the worlds. God’s word could not be more logical!

     

     

     

     

    #946650
    Berean
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior,

    Me

     

    Even 2

    Acts 5:31
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and👉 a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23
    Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel 👉a Saviour, Jesus:

    And even 3  in John 3:16

    #946651
    Berean
    Participant

    1 John 4:14
    [14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be 👉the Saviour of the world.

    🤫

    #946652
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Jodi, you accuse me of “not acknowledging that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual”; but, you can’t tell me who is speaking where in this chapter, haven’t explained why the singular used here is any different than anywhere else in the Tanakh when God refers to Israel (the nation) as “a son”, AND you haven’t explained how or when the Jesus fulfills verse 10. So instead of accusations, correct me with God’s word and not your personal thoughts.

    ME: We actually had this discussion a year ago.

    Looks like it was left off at,

    YOU: If you are going to say Isaiah is prophesying what the apostles are going to say speaking of the crucified of Jesus, then the personal pronouns need an explanation. If the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus; then Jesus died only for the apostles since the “our”, “me”, and “my” take ownership of the deeds done to the “servant.” Doesn’t make sense does it?

    ME: I’m not following your logic when I read Isaiah 53:1-9 at all.

    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    The “our” and “we” that follows after verse 1, INCLUDES the people receiving the report. 

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    When an apostle speaks to a crowd to teach them that Jesus Christ died for “our” transgressions, he died for the iniquities “of us all”, you really want to tell me the crowd is not included within the “our” and the “of us all”???

     

    #946653
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT I EXPECTED FROM YOU!

    I  POSTED EZEKIEL 37 CONCERNING THE DRY BONES, AS A RESPONSE TO YOUR OTHER VERY SIMILAR COMMENT POSTED  PREVIOUSLY,

    HEREUNDER,

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is THE SPIRIT and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    BOTH COMMENTS FROM YOU HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON! LET’S SEE!

    THE FIRST COMMENT WAS DIRECTED TO “GOD”, SPIRIT, IN THE SECOND AGAIN YOUR COMMENT WAS DIRECTED TO “THE SPIRIT”, GOD’S!!!

    THUS, FROM YOUR SIDE, THE SAME STUPID STORY AGAIN WHEN YOU REFER TO GOD, HIS SPIRIT, AND HIS WORK! I DON’T KNOW WHAT KIND OF A BELIEF YOU EMBRACE IF YOU DO EMBRACE A BELIEF, WHICH I SERIOUSLY DOUBT.

    GOD, WITH THE SCRIPTURE OF EZEKIEL 37 DEMONSTRATED THE POWER OF THE “SPIRIT”, WHILE YOUR COMMENT CONCERNING JESUS’ CONCEPTION DEMONSTRATED THE OPPOSITE, TO BE CLEAR,

    THE INFIRMITY OF THE “SPIRIT”! 

    SIMPLY REDICOLOUS!!!

    READ AGAIN YOUR NONSENSE:

    Jesus’ daddy is THE SPIRIT and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    O!!!  I SEE, SO ACCORDING TO YOU, SINCE JESUS’ DADDY IS THE SPIRIT, HE IS NOT A DESCENDANT BOTH OF DAVID AND SOLOMON!

    NOW LET’S GO BACK TO ISAAC’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH!

    REGARDING THE SCRIPTURE, ISAAC  FOR SURE IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT!

    NOW WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON, SINCE NO OTHER SCRIPTURE DECLARES OTHERWISE!

    Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and of her,

    I WILL GIVE YOU A SON,…

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    GOD, SPIRIT, OF SARAH, GAVE ABRAHAM A SON!

    NOW, DOES ISAAC HAVE A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO ABRAHAM???

    READ:

    Genesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son, whom Sara bore him, Isaac.

    NOW, IF ISAAC BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HAS A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO ABRAHAM, JESUS OF THE SPIRIT ALSO HAS A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO DAVID AND SOLOMON. NO?

    NOW TO THE DRY BONES:

    THAT PARTICULAR VERSE ESPECIALLY THOSE DRY BONES IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO JESUS’ SPIRIT, PRE-EXISTED, HIDDEN, AND BURIED AS ETERNAL LIFE. WELL HINTED OUT IN 

    John 1:3 ALL THINGS were made BY HIM:

    “BY HIM” PRECISELY BY JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!!!

    and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    4 In him was life,…

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev. 13:8

    NOW LET’S GO BACK TO 

    Ezekiel 37:3 And he said to me: Son of man, dost thou think these bones shall live? And I answered: O Lord God, thou knowest. 4 And he said to me: Prophesy concerning these bones; and say to them:

    Ye dry bones, hear the “WORD” of the Lord.

    LET’S CLARIFY:

    JESUS’ SPIRIT “THE WORD” IS BURIED AND HIDDEN WITHIN THOSE DRY BONES, SINCE BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. Colossians 1:17, 

    THEN WHAT???

    LET’S READ PRECISELY JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH, 

    John 8:28 Jesus therefore said to them: When you shall have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know,

    that I am he,

    THAT I AM HE!

    JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD HIDDEN AND BURIED WITHIN ALL CREATURES, IN THIS CASE FOR NO USE WITHIN THE JEWS, ORIGINALLY LUCIFER’S REBELLIOUS ANGELS!

    IN OUR CASE WITHIN THOSE BONES,

    ….All these bones are the house of Israel.. 

    ETERNAL LIFE, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES!

    THE FATHER, HIDDEN WITHIN JESUS’ SPIRIT, THE FATHER IN THE SON AND VICE VERSA,

    John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    The words that I speak to you,

    I speak not of myself.

    But the Father who abideth in me,

    he doth the works. 

    11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.

    THUS, THE TALKING IS DONE BY THE FATHER WITHIN JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” IN OUR CASE HIDDEN IN THE DRY BONES, AND JESUS SIMPLY DOES AS THE FATHER SPEAKS!

    READ AGAIN:

    Ye dry bones, hear the “WORD” of the Lord.

    GOT IT???

    THE FATHER SPEAKS THROUGH JESUS’ SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND SINCE IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST, HIDDEN AND BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, Matthew 13:44, JESUS’ SPIRIT OBEYS THE FATHER AND HE SIMPLY DOES AS THE FATHER SPEAKS, IN OUR CASE HE SIMPLY OUT OF THOSE DRY BONES RECREATED ANEW  

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL!!!

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ: FROM GOD’S PERSPECTIVE THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE DRY BONES AND

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL NEVER MIND DAVID AND HIS “SEED”.

    NOW, HOW AND BY WHAT POWER, DID ALL THESE EXCEEDING DRY BONES LIVE AND BECOME

    AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY,

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND SURELY WITH A BIOLOGICAL CONNECTION TO

    DAVID AND SOLOMON, AND ALSO

    HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    HERE IT COMES:

    BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD! NO?

    TO BE CLEAR

    By “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, MADE FLESH,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, !!!
    A PRE-EXISTENT SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE!

    BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, MATTHEW 13:44

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD…Rev.13:8

    THROUGH EZEKIEL’S MOUTH!!!

    INTO THAT VALLEY OF BONES!!!

    ALIVE BY JESUS’ SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE!

    PRE-EXISTED!!!

    NOW ATTENTION PLEASE:

    IF ONLY BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THESE DRY BONES, BECAME ALIVE, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY, THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, FOR SURE

    WITH A CONNECTION TO DAVID AND SOLOMON, 

    AND ALSO FOR SURE HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER???

    IF AS YOU WELL SAID JESUS’DADDY IS ALSO

    THE SPIRIT OF GOD, AND HE IS
     

    A JEW,

    THE TRUE ISRAELITE,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD  MADE FLESH, AND THE SON OF GOD,

    HERE IT COMES AGAIN:

    HOW IS IT THEN THAT ACCORDING TO YOUR FEEBLE SPIRITUAL REASONING,

    JESUS HAS NO CONNECTION TO

    DAVID AND SOLOMON and also

    NO BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    what kind of idiotic reasoning is this?!?!?

    Exodus:4:22 And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:

     Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    ANSWER IF YOU HAVE THE GUTS:

    ISN’T GOD,

    THE FATHER OF ISRAEL???

    AND IF GOD IS THE FATHER OF ISRAEL,

    WHEN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD THOSE BONES WERE CLOTHED WITH SKIN, BECAME ALIVE, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY, AND ALSO

    THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, HERE IT COMES ONE MORE TIME:

    MR. DT, DIDN’T AUTOMATICALLY  THOSE DRY BONES

    MAKE GOD THEIR FATHER?

    YOU: What does the Ezekiel passage of GOD raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David?

    READ AGAIN THE ABOVE AND CHEW THE TRUTH!

    MORE TO COME!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #946654
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: Though I had asked you to find me a passage in the book of Acts that supports your doctrine of Jesus as it pertains to him being our savior,

    YOU:

    Acts 5:31
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and👉 a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23
    Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel 👉a Saviour, Jesus:

    ME: Neither of these passages teach whatsoever your doctrine which you had said, “It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD“.

    I didn’t ask where in Acts we can read of Jesus being said to be our savior, I asked for you to give me a passage in Acts that supports your doctrine.

    In John 3, Jesus tells us that he who came down from heaven is The Son of Man.

    We see Jesus use Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God interchangeably in the gospel of Matthew, which is because, “of heaven” and “of God” mean the same thing. Likewise, when Jesus says “I came forth from the Father” and “I came down from heaven” these as well mean the same thing.

    of heaven means of God and from heaven means from the Father.

    Berean, you have a problem with your doctrine, as you’re interpretation is to say God the Son came down from heaven and then was morphed into Mary’s womb, which your support of such only exists through other interpretations that you have made. What you stand on is interpretation supported by none other than other interpretations, to which do nothing but spew contradiction to clear given texts that need no interpretation.

    Acts 13: 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    He who is our savior had NOT YET BEEN SENT when John first began to preach, it wasn’t until John baptized Jesus and the Spirit of God came to abode in him was he sent.

    Further, our savior is according to a promise, our savior is according to being a seed of David and nowhere in the OT, where God had made this promise, do we find even a hint to your doctrine, which is why we also don’t actually find it in the NT either.

    #946655
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Didn’t read a word since you don’t know how to write in paragraph format…either learn how to properly communicate in the written format, and I will respond OR don’t, and I won’t. It’s that simple!

    P.S. All capital letters means you’re yelling and is poor writing etiquette, and is extremely rude; you’re not a rude person are you?

    #946656
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Admin,

    You: You lack understanding, God doesn’t put his full plan in the Old Testament. Rather, he reveals parts of his plan at the right time / season.

    Me: It isn’t me who “lacks understanding”; it’s the entirety of the christian faith that lacks understanding, as they are focused only on the NT and in general disregard the Tanakh, calling it an “old covenant”; in effect, treating the words written within as obsolete (unless they can twist it to fit their religious system). However, when the Tanakh is read and studied one finds God HAS revealed HIS plan for man. If you don’t believe God has revealed HIS plans, you need to read Zechariah chapter 8 and would love to hear you explanation of verse 20-23. Please also explain Hosea 3:4-5, Ezekiel 37:20-28, Jeremiah 30-38 (yes chapters); a sampling of God’s plans.

    If christians today would bother themselves and study what God said verses what man says, none would step foot inside another christian religious institution. None have explained why their understanding of the NT differs from another religion’s understanding and all the while claiming their understanding is of the “spirit.” I thought the NT was suppose to be the “inspired Word of God”; shouldn’t all have the same understanding, since it “came from God”? If it came from God, should there be any argument over what was said? The arguing should be everyone’s first clue there’s something wrong; but all are afraid to admit it.

     

    When did the Jesus say he’s our “mediator”; in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life!” Jesus answered. “Without me, no one can go to the Father.” According to the Jesus, the “only way” to God is thru him. Paul further states this lie when he tells Timothy “There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human (if Paul isn’t a liar, there goes your trinity and the “preexisting” Jesus), and he gave himself to rescue all of us.”

    Did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or any of the prophets require a “mediator”? How about the people of Nineveh, did they have a “mediator” when they cried out to God in a loud voice and where forgiven? When did God become so aloof that man was no longer able to come to him? Does God, the creator of everything seen and unseen, suddenly need a “helper”; when did HE become to busy for HIS creation? Are you to busy to listen to your children or do you make time for them?

     

    Time for everyone to verify what they have been told is truth.

    #946671
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Sin = Death and Righteousness = Life

    The SOURCE of Righteousness is through our Heavenly Father’s Spirit.

    When our Heavenly Father promised unto mankind, even before the world began, eternal life, that was therein also a Promise of His Spirit.

    Paul teaches that not only are we saved by the righteousness of one man to whom God’s Spirit had come to abode in without measure, but that our hope is to receive the Promised Spirit.

    Paul also says, “for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth” and “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”

    Further Paul teaches that Jesus is a firstborn of many brethren and that we are to be made in his image where Paul describes that image as one who is led by the Spirit of God.

    Jesus taught that his baptism is our baptism, that one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom, that we would drink of the one cup that he drinks of and that cup is the One Spirit.

    Berean’s doctrine just becomes more and more clear that it is founded upon one interpretation applied to another interpretation, attempting to make things fit by even taking verses out of their surrounding context. His interpretations are put on high and clear given scriptures are swept under the rug treated as useless.

    He declares that a man receiving God’s Spirit was not enough to save us, Jesus needed to be more than just a man. He declares there is God the Son that had to come down from heaven and morph into a woman’s womb. On one hand he says this Son left his glory behind becoming a man so that he could then die for our sins to save us, but yet he had to still be of some glory or what would be the point of him coming down from heaven? With Berean’s doctrine we are left to ponder what was still of the Son that needed to descend with him as he left his glory behind that was then necessary in order for him to be our savior.

    Righteousness is life and righteousness is in following God’s commands. Even in the OT with the prophet Ezekiel we can read that God had promised to give His Spirit to cause us to walk in all of God’s ways.

    Paul teaches, “wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” …” ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus”.

    Paul directly gives us the faith we are to have in he who was anointed of the Spirit?

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Are Paul’s words given to be swept under the rug? Who has understanding?

    One man’s offense brought sin and death (this is for another post to be discussed in more depth) but what is obvious is that this man, nor any other human on the face of the earth had been given God’s Spirit not by measure, not UNTIL it was given to Jesus of Nazareth.

    “the law entered that the offence might abound” the law only proved that man can do nothing of himself that only God is good and we need His Spirit dwelling in us to bare any fruit of goodness or righteousness or truth. God made the human body to house the Holy Spirit, but if we had it to begin with along with eternal life how would we know the truth that He is the source, might we have been more like puppets in that case, or might we have considered ourselves to be a god? What we do know is God had determined that no human would receive it without measure until Jesus, which was a fulfilled promise, which was God’s word made true in his flesh, for the Spirit made it’s home in his body. God had promised to give his Spirit to a seed of David, to call him to righteousness where he would thus be able to fulfill God’s covenant and be for a light, be one who would be led by the Spirit of God and do all of God’s will.

    When no man received the Spirit without measure but one, which brought forth righteousness, fulfilling all of God’s commands, we can see exactly why God would give forgiveness unto our sins in him.

    Read this again, “by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”

    The Spirit of God in the man Jesus proved righteousness and so there is a promise to all men to be given the Spirit. “By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous” and where there is righteousness there is eternal life. God is our savior where justification of life unto man is through His Spirit that causes righteousness. Because Jesus was none other than a man and not some sort of godman from heaven, such is exactly why God could forgive our sins through him. God made it for us to see that we could be justified in Jesus because if God can cause righteousness in him, He can also cause righteousness in us. Such is the faith we are to believe in, such is our hope.

    The Word of God is God’s Spirit, it became true in the flesh of Jesus according to a promise where Jesus was filled with grace and truth, where people beheld his glory as he was sent out among the people having God in him doing all kinds of great works, an only begotten Son was sent. He who was begotten of the Spirit and anointed to fulfill all of God’s will most certainly came forth from God, he came to us directly down from heaven. This was all of God’s plan before the world even began where nothing would have been made that was made without this firstborn of many brethren, the first to have the Word living in him.

    Jesus received the glory that had been of God for him before the world even began, upon rising from the dead he received The Promised Spirit, “on this day I have begotten you” and he was exalted into God’s kingdom to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus had indeed spoken of himself as the Son of Man and he had said that man must be born again to enter into God’s kingdom. We also read Jesus say, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the NEW BIRTH, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Our Heavenly Father had indeed declared the End from the Beginning and that End is God’s Spirit being All in ALL, all drinking of the cup of the One Spirit that Jesus drinks of, all being born of God not able to sin able to walk in all His ways.  That End that God had declared from the Beginning is where Jesus is a firstborn overall of the New Heaven and Earth.

     

    #946672
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I let you know that I haven’t attended a church since I was 18 but the church I was raised up in was very much invested in the OT, I grew up keeping a very strict Seventh Day Sabbath, I ate only clean foods according to the law and I kept God’s Holy Days. The church constantly read the OT and sang songs from Psalms. There was no Trinity, but One God the Father and I was taught that Jesus is my brother and my king. When I was in my thirties I started doing bible study with a friend and when I kept speaking to the OT and using it to give understanding to the New she flat out asked me why I am even talking about the OT where she then said that Jesus made the OT obsolete. We remained friends but after that we did not gather again for a bible study.

    Not all Christians nor all Christian churches believe the OT is obsolete, quite the contrary. The OT passages that you provided regarding God’s plan fit in exactly with my belief, just wanted to throw that out there, but I am curious as to what you see from those verses and chapters of God’s plan in the OT are against what you had been told in the Christian church you previously were apart of?

    #946673
    Jodi
    Participant

    correction

    “Paul directly gives us the faith we are to have in he who was anointed of the Spirit?”

    is not supposed to have a question mark but a period.

    #946674
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…..>”Because Jesus was none other than a man and not some sort of godman from heaven, such is exactly why God could forgive our sins through him. God made it for us to see that we could be justified in Jesus because if God can cause righteousness in him, He can also cause righteousness in us. Such is the faith we are to believe in, such is our hope”.

    “AMEN” JODI…….> Jesus , “demonstrated ” to us all, the “righteousness ” of God (IN) human flesh.  All done by the “spirit of our one, and “ONLY” true GOD”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……..gene

    #946676
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or any of the prophets require a “mediator”? How about the people of Nineveh, did they have a “mediator” when they cried out to God in a loud voice and where forgiven? When did God become so aloof that man was no longer able to come to him? Does God, the creator of everything seen and unseen, suddenly need a “helper”; when did HE become to busy for HIS creation? Are you to busy to listen to your children or do you make time for them?


    @desiretruth

    I think you lack understanding. Let me explain.

    God is not a man. He is also not an angel. He’s not an extra-terrestrial of any kind. He doesn’t have a body. He is an eternal spirit.

    When men saw the invisible God, what they were actually looking at was the Angel of YHWH or perhaps another representative.

    God sends angels, mediators, apostles, prophets, and other representatives including enemies to people to send them a message or teach them a lesson.

    Why? Because as mentioned before, he is not a man or an angel. He isn’t going to turn up and shake your hand and interact with you as a flesh being. God is much too high for such.

    God sends servants and others to do his bidding. He often has a person in the middle just like John, who wrote letters to the 7 churches at that time.

    Now back to Jesus Christ. Yes, God works through him to help mankind as a whole. He died for our sins as the sacrificial lamb of God. Through Moses came the Law. Through Jesus Christ came grace.

    #946678
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You: God is not a man. He is also not an angel. He doesn’t have a body. He is an eternal spirit.

    Me: Can I say DUH!! I have never once stated the contrary. What I have said is God loves HIS creation; why doesn’t christianity understand that? I have never claimed to know or understand why good and bad things happen in the world, that’s God’s department. God said “I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil I am Yahweh; I do all these things.” I am simply here for the ride in the moment HE placed me, for as long as HE wants me here. The big question is what are we suppose to do while we are here; what does HE expect of man?

    Concerning the “mediator”, do I need the Jesus or can I offer praise and thanksgiving directly to God? Can I take my requests directly to HIM or do I need the Jesus as this “intermediator” “working on my behalf”? God says to repent, turn from sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; but christianity says I need the Jesus to be forgiven. The Tanakh teaches, God is our salvation; if anyone can go directly to God, why does anyone need the Jesus? What is the purpose or function of the Jesus?

    #946679
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Concerning the “mediator”, do I need the Jesus or can I offer praise and thanksgiving directly to God? Can I take my requests directly to HIM or do I need the Jesus as this “intermediator” “working on my behalf”? God says to repent, turn from sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; but christianity says I need the Jesus to be forgiven. The Tanakh teaches, God is our salvation; if anyone can go directly to God, why does anyone need the Jesus? What is the purpose or function of the Jesus?

    ME: 

    Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    My understanding, which is clear from Jesus, is just like in the OT we pray to God our Heavenly Father and it is Him that we are to ask for forgiveness. God made it clear unto the Israelites that if they followed Him and His commandments they would be blessed and if they did not they would be cursed. God also brings upon the just, certain trials, tribulations and testing for instruction, for building character, for to bring understanding and establish a deeper faith.

    Here is the thing DT, God’s forgiveness unto repentance didn’t come with the gift of eternal life, why not? Well, because no man was perfect, the likelihood of some form of sinning again was certain. Not until God would fulfill His promise to cleanse us, give us a new heart and place His Spirit in us, would we then walk in all His ways and thus be given eternal life.

    Matthew tells us that Jesus said that he must be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He was cleansed at the river Jordan and then received the Spirit without measure, an anointing to then walk in all of God’s ways, following all of His commands, fulfill His covenant and be a light to both Jews and Gentiles. What is that light, it is God’s Spirit in him to the cause of righteousness. He was born of water and of the Spirit and entered the Kingdom of God where life therein is forever more.   If we believe God accomplished righteousness in the man Jesus through His Spirit and set him eternally at His right hand, we too are promised a resurrection and to receive God’s Promised Spirit and enter into God’s kingdom.

    There’s a great deal more understanding provided to us from both the OT and NT surrounding this topic, which I won’t fully get to in this posts, but perhaps provide a little taste.

    We are told in Hebrews 5 that though Jesus were a Son (one who is led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8) he was perfected learning obedience by which he suffered, which that suffering was him as an innocent man being beaten, mocked and crucified unto death.  Jesus through God’s Spirit in him was able to overcome the desires of the flesh, he was able to overcome the fear of death that has held all men in bondage since Adam and Eve sinned against God. Jesus was able to deny his own will, a will that is weak because of mortal flesh. Jesus’s faith in God was more powerful than the fear of death.  By his wounds we are healed, we are promised a body that can no longer die, a body we no longer need to serve/obey in order to survive, we are set free from a body of sin and death and are given a body of righteousness and life serving God without fear.  Jesus, when he suffered and died, he put to death for all, the old man, the body of sin, for the perfecting of one man equates to the perfecting of all.  God’s promise before the world even began was to be ALL IN ALL to which Jesus is a firstborn of.

    Much more to speak to on this.

     

    #946680
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    The disobedience committed by a human led to a punishment God gave to all humans and therefore it was unto God that by the obedience of one human God would redeem all humans. Makes perfect sense, but people are blinded to this very logical and simple truth from God because they have trusted in false interpretations that lead them to believe in the contrary, which is that Jesus had to be more than a human in order for God to redeem humans.

    I do find the blindness rather jaw dropping. when one cannot see that having God’s Spirit come to dwell in you means the same thing as having been born of God’s Spirit and thus having been begotten by God, especially when we are told that one needs to be born of God not to sin and that it is the fruit of the Spirit that is in all righteousness. Oh yah and we are even told that how the Son of God was manifested  is the same way in which God manifests His other children, causing them to be born of God not able to sin (1 John 3). Even further we are told that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and God had predestined us to be made in the image of His Son Jesus, which would be one who is led by the Spirit then of course. Led by the Spirit because it has come to dwell in you. There are more examples but the big icing on the cake is that the son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, was resurrected from the dead and given the Promised Holy Spirit and also upon His resurrection we are told the promise of Psalms 2 was fulfilled where God said “this day have I begotten thee”. Receiving the Spirit to live in you is the same thing as being begotten by God.

    It’s also jaw dropping to see people not apply how our Creator had planned the End from the Beginning, where that End involves our Creator’s Spirit resting upon a son of David, a Son of Man, who sits eternally upon his father David’s throne, as they turn and render the definition of dia contrary to this clear truth using it as by means of instead of by reason of. Then prophecies and later spoken fulfilled prophecies are completely ignored that speak to Jesus being of the Creation, being a man ordained by the Creator and assert that Jesus is actually our Creator.  It’s also ignored that God gave the revelation of Jesus Christ to Abraham to which this anointed Jesus had been declared by God before Abraham even existed.  Further, people do not apply Jesus’s own usage of words where “from God” means the same thing as “down from heaven”.

    Additionally they distort the conception of Jesus and speak nonsense, where the conception has nothing to do with a miraculous deed by God through the power of His Holy Spirit for a sign unto the house of David concerning a rightful heir to David’s throne, it’s about which one?…Mary being impregnated with God’s Holy Spirit or Mary being impregnated with God the Son from heaven? Then we are told Jesus was fully human but also not human, like I said, nonsense.

    #946681
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You :

    Matthew tells us that Jesus said he had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He was purified in the Jordan and then received the Spirit without measure, an anointing to then walk in all the ways of God,

    me

    Hi Jodi, you say that Jesus was purified…
    What was he purified from?
    I wonder.
    By placing Jesus in the ranks of sinners it could be the case that he needed to be purified, but this is not the case.
    The Bible never suggests that Jesus needed to be purified.
    Jesus did not come for himself, with the need for purification BUT FOR US AS A SAVIOR.( Luck 1)

    👉 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    [69] And hath raised up👉 an horn of salvation👈 for us in the house of his servant David;
    [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    Not for himself

    👇

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, 👉but not for himself: 👈 and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.(Dan.9:27)

    HE LEFT HEAVEN TO EXPIATE OUR SINS:

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had 👉by himself 👉purged our sins,👈 sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;(Heb.1:3)

     

    Jesus was pure and holy from his birth on earth:

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also👉 that holy thing👈 which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.(Luck 1:35)

    IN NO PASSAGE WHICH SPEAKS OF THE BAPTISM OF JESUS, WE SPEAK OF PURIFICATION OF CHRIST… ONLY THESE WORDS:

    But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and is thou to me?
    [15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
    [16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 👉This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.👈

     

    ….

    🙏

    #946682
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said……..>”Hi All,

    Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    The disobedience committed by a human led to a punishment God gave to all humans and therefore it was unto God that by the obedience of one human God would redeem all humans. Makes perfect sense, but people are blinded to this very logical and simple truth from God because they have trusted in false interpretations that lead them to believe in the contrary, which is that Jesus had to be more than a human in order for God to redeem humans.

    I do find the blindness rather jaw dropping. when one cannot see that having God’s Spirit come to dwell in you means the same thing as having been born of God’s Spirit and thus having been begotten by God, especially when we are told that one needs to be born of God not to sin and that it is the fruit of the Spirit that is in all righteousness. Oh yah and we are even told that how the Son of God was manifested  is the same way in which God manifests His other children, causing them to be born of God not able to sin (1 John 3). Even further we are told that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and God had predestined us to be made in the image of His Son Jesus, which would be one who is led by the Spirit then of course. Led by the Spirit because it has come to dwell in you. There are more examples but the big icing on the cake is that the son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, was resurrected from the dead and given the Promised Holy Spirit and also upon His resurrection we are told the promise of Psalms 2 was fulfilled where God said “this day have I begotten thee”. Receiving the Spirit to live in you is the same thing as being begotten by God.

    It’s also jaw dropping to see people not apply how our Creator had planned the End from the Beginning, where that End involves our Creator’s Spirit resting upon a son of David, a Son of Man, who sits eternally upon his father David’s throne, as they turn and render the definition of dia contrary to this clear truth using it as by means of instead of by reason of. Then prophecies and later spoken fulfilled prophecies are completely ignored that speak to Jesus being of the Creation, being a man ordained by the Creator and assert that Jesus is actually our Creator.  It’s also ignored that God gave the revelation of Jesus Christ to Abraham to which this anointed Jesus had been declared by God before Abraham even existed.  Further, people do not apply Jesus’s own usage of words where “from God” means the same thing as “down from heaven”.

    Additionally they distort the conception of Jesus and speak nonsense, where the conception has nothing to do with a miraculous deed by God through the power of His Holy Spirit for a sign unto the house of David concerning a rightful heir to David’s throne, it’s about which one?…Mary being impregnated with God’s Holy Spirit or Mary being impregnated with God the Son from heaven? Then we are told Jesus was fully human but also not human, like I said, nonsense.”

    PERFECT, Jodi, this bears repeating, over and over, here and everywhere>

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

    #946683
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Your words,  only show how much you have fallen into false religious teachings, sad! Jodi and I are presenting Jesus and true Christianity the right way. If you were being lead by the SPIRIT OF GOD, you would know this, but because you don’t really have love for the truth , “God has sent unto you a (deceiving spirit), in order for you to believe lies”.  2ths 2

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    #946684
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In reference to post #946652

    Did you put the Jesus on the cross; if so, what did you do that put him there?

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