John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,741 through 25,760 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946628
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Interesting response, I mentioned nothing about “worship”; apparently you have questioned whether or nor not you should be worshiping the Jesus since it was your immediate response to my idolatry statement. I was referring to the Jesus being a “mediator” between God and man (did you catch the “between”) and the “only way to the Father is thru the Jesus” – another “between.” I also mentioned the “cross”, as this holds an extreme level of importance in the christian world, where people have this idol plastered all over their homes, see stickers on cars, erected along highways, in and on top of churches, and songs of “praise” are written about it.

    Did God say he was sending someone to be a mediator between HIM and man? Please provide a passage in the Tanakh stating the Messiah is to be a go between so man can get to God. Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?

    #946629
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You once told me the faith you’re apart of, I looked up what the core beliefs are and looking at the “Doctrines to be Rejected” I found this; “We reject the doctrine – that Joseph was the actual father of Jesus.” Yet, you say the Jesus was artificially inseminated making Joseph the actual father of the Jesus; which is it? Please explain, do you reject a core belief of the faith you adhere to or did you make up the artificial insemination to explain away the discrepancy hoping I would never come across this nugget? If your faith doesn’t believe Joseph is the biological father of the Jesus, that would mean the spirit fathered the Jesus; and if the spirit fathered the Jesus, how can he be in the line of David and Solomon…Perplexing?!?!

    Still waiting for every passage in the Tanakh that states the Messiah was to be born of a virgin the way the writer of Matthew claims.

    #946630
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……you said…..”Did God say he was sending someone to be a mediator between HIM and man? Please provide a passage in the Tanakh stating the Messiah is to be a go between so man can get to God. Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?”

    first of all the Old Testament is full of “mediators “. , between God and man. Who do you think these were,  Noah, Moses, all the major and minor prophets were , “mediators, between God and mankind”. Just as the book of Hebrews says. …..“God in times spoke to us through the prophets in different ways, and has spoken to us in these last days through a son. Makes know difference who God speaks through, it’s still God who is speaking through a “mediator “>.  Common sense should tell you that.

    I absolutely know Jesus is a  Messiah or true , “anointed one of God”.  And the words he has told us were  true, and that’s , the “only” way, anyone can approach God the Father it is the exact way Jesus did  and  does, He has clearly shown us the true way, and it’s in, complete “FAITH” and trust,  in God the Father,  even to the point of death.  Just as he demonstrated to us all and as it says, …..”until we all come unto the unity of faith, and knowledge, and to the measure and stature of the fullness that is in Christ Jesus”

    DT remember if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent him.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #946631
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    In none of what you said did you give a single passage where God said the Messiah was to be a go between so man can get to God. All you said was the Tanakh was “full of mediators.” Then said Noah, Moses, and all the prophets were “mediators.” Really!! A mediator is one who brings two parties together to settle a disagreement or variance; did any of the a fore mentioned men “negotiate” an agreement between the people of Israel and God OR did they pass on a message from God to the people. Hmmm!

    I’ve never read of a back and forth to come to an agreement or a settlement; the prophets always relayed onto the people what God commanded and it wasn’t negotiable; comply to what God commanded or there would be consequences to disobedience. You are confused by the lies of Paul.

    You “believe” the Jesus is a “mediator” (even calls himself one) and that would mean he’s negotiating a settlement between two parties – man and God; when did God say he needed to settle anything between man and HIMSELF? I’ve always understood what God said was final; are you saying God will compromise what HE has commanded and bend to the will and demands of man? What exactly is the Jesus “mediating” on our behalf? Aren’t we going to be held responsible for our own sins? Is the Jesus “negotiating” a “lesser punishment” or is the Jesus reminding God that this person “believes” in him, so HE should take it easy on this “true believer”?

    The mediator question has come up before, but no one can explain why a “mediator” is needed when God says to repent and turn from your wickedness and in doing so HE will forget it (as though you never committed the sin). Did David need a “mediator” when he sinned? He asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. No one needs a mediator, God already told us what to do.

    You: I absolutely know Jesus is a Messiah

    Me: Use the Tanakh and prove it! I’ve given the post link multiple time with references of who the true Messiah will be and what he will do when he comes; does what you believe the Messiah to be match what the Tanakh says? What are you so afraid of; the truth or finding out what you believe is a lie? Verify everything!!

    #946632
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    As I very recently told you I am not part of any church, nor have I followed any pastor. I haven’t attended church in over 30 years. I have studied many Christian doctrines to see how they align with the sum of all scripture and haven’t found a single one that I would ever claim I adhere to. You most certainly have me confused with someone else.

    I believe in the book of Matthew just as I do the book of Exodus, but one doesn’t have to believe any book to be true to still be able to establish what it does and does not say. 

    Matthew gives us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a descendant of Abraham and David and that lineage goes from Abraham to Joseph where we are then told that Joseph was betrothed to Mary to whom was born Jesus. Matthew has clearly established that Jesus’s bio father is Joseph whereby he is thus also a bio son of David and Abraham and of course that Jesus’s bio mother is Mary.

    Then we are told that she became pregnant with Jesus, without having yet come together with Joseph, accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

    God performed what one would consider a miracle, where by the power of His Spirit He caused Mary to become pregnant with Joseph’s son before they had come together.

     

    #946633
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Use the Tanakh and prove it!

    ME: This is really getting old and it’s completely absurd!

    God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi for me, it continues on and just like each book that makes up the Tanakh adds to us more history and more truth with each book so do the books within the New Testament. There cannot be contradictions but most assuredly new truths can be revealed. You asking me to show where it is written in the Tanakh is just as stupid as me asking you to say show me where it is written in Genesis. If you can’t show me where what Isaiah said “xy and z” is also in Genesis, well than that makes Isaiah a liar.

    #946634
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…..> “God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi for me, it continues on and just like each book that makes up the Tanakh adds to us more history and more truth with each book so do the books within the New Testament. There cannot be contradictions but most assuredly new truths can be revealed. You asking me to show where it is written in the Tanakh is just as stupid as me asking you to say show me where it is written in Genesis. If you can’t show me where what Isaiah said “xy and z” is also in Genesis, well then that makes Isaiah a liar”

    Excellent response Jodi ,  because that is “exactly ” What DT does. He only chooses what he wants to to try to make his case, but rejects everything else that destroys what he says. It is “futile”, and a waste of time , to even try to prove anything to someone who has that kind of mentality. DT was blind for his forty years in his church and is still blind to the truth, even now.

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene
    .

    #946635
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thank you and yes, I am seeing the futility as well conversing with DT. Especially when he cannot acknowledge that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual, should have just stopped there, really no point in discussing anything further.

    Peace and love to you and yours as well brother Gene

    #946636
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    The Word of God is His Promised Spirit and it was made true in the flesh when it descended upon Jesus of Nazareth at the river Jordan.

    God was in Jesus to the cause of fulfilling all righteousness, where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    God was in Jesus where Jesus spoke God’s words and did God’s works.

    God’s word that Jesus preached was itself The Word, as Jesus taught that God was in him and that God would be in us also, a Promise of The Spirit. Jesus preached that we too would be born of water and of the Spirit, that we too would receive the baptism that he received and drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit.

    We read of The Word, to which God had established even before the world began, as Isaiah speaks of it in chapters 11, 42 and 61. The Spirit would come upon a son of Jesse and David where he would be for a light,  to which John 1 specifically speaks to that light.

    The Word began with Jesus, he was a firstborn ordained from the beginning to fulfill God’s New Covenant, without him nothing would have been made that was made.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our Heavenly Father is our Savior and He is our Savior through His Spirit for His Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    Without the Spirit we are nothing, we are like dogs that return to our own vomit. God had made us in His image, where unlike all other living souls that God had made, humans were given a mind that could come to know and believe in Him, we were given a body that could house the Spirit of God. God has presented us with the history of man leaning on his own understanding, of man following his own way, a way of darkness and death.

    Jesus is the way, he is the light, the truth and the life because the Spirit dwells in him! Our desire is to be as he is! Our desire is to receive The Promise to which God had declared from the beginning, His Spirit. Our desire is to become joint heirs with Christ the firstborn of The Word.

     

    #946637
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD…
    for Christ Jesus IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    THIS ONE HAS TO WANT IT

    JESUS ​​SAID: I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DO NOT MY WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME…

    IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS ​​LEFT HEAVEN TO STAND DOWN HERE

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and👉 took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:👈
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

     

    #946638
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said……>Good Morning All,

    The Word of God is His Promised Spirit and it was made true in the flesh when it descended upon Jesus of Nazareth at the river Jordan.

    God was in Jesus to the cause of fulfilling all righteousness, where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    God was in Jesus where Jesus spoke God’s words and did God’s works.

    God’s word that Jesus preached was itself The Word, as Jesus taught that God was in him and that God would be in us also, a Promise of The Spirit. Jesus preached that we too would be born of water and of the Spirit, that we too would receive the baptism that he received and drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit.

    We read of The Word, to which God had established even before the world began, as Isaiah speaks of it in chapters 11, 42 and 61. The Spirit would come upon a son of Jesse and David where he would be for a light,  to which John 1 specifically speaks to that light.

    The Word began with Jesus, he was a firstborn ordained from the beginning to fulfill God’s New Covenant, without him nothing would have been made that was made.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our Heavenly Father is our Savior and He is our Savior through His Spirit for His Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    Without the Spirit we are nothing, we are like dogs that return to our own vomit. God had made us in His image, where unlike all other living souls that God had made, humans were given a mind that could come to know and believe in Him, we were given a body that could house the Spirit of God. God has presented us with the history of man leaning on his own understanding, of man following his own way, a way of darkness and death.

    Jesus is the way, he is the light, the truth and the life because the Spirit dwells in him! Our desire is to be as he is! Our desire is to receive The Promise to which God had declared from the beginning, His Spirit. Our desire is to become joint heirs with Christ the firstborn of The Word.

     

    A most excellent post Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

     

    #946639
    Berean
    Participant

    Consider Philippians 2

     

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    I] 👉Who (the Son of God), being in THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

    II] 👉But made himself (the Son of God) of no reputation, and👉 took upon him (the son of God) 👉the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

    III]. And 👉being found in fashion as a man👈,
    👉 he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.👈

    #946640
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD…
    for Christ Jesus IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    THIS ONE HAS TO WANT IT

    JESUS ​​SAID: I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DO NOT MY WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME…

    IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS ​​LEFT HEAVEN TO STAND DOWN HERE

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and👉 took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:👈
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    ME:  It was certainly ENOUGH according to God’s word in the Old Testament which is directly backed by the New Testament Berean! Your false interpretations have led you to this false reasoning.

    Do you not find it at all strange that the book of Acts does not support you? Can you find even one passage in that book that aligns with your doctrine? No sign of Jesus being our Creator, on the contrary we are directly given in chapter 17 that Jesus is a man of the Creation ordained by our Creator to judge the world in righteousness, exactly what we are told by the prophet Isaiah where we are also given that Jesus judges in righteousness through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him.

    What else does the book of Acts tell us.,

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed  hath God according to HIS PROMISE raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David…37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it…30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Jeremiah and Ezekiel tells us that God’s New Covenant is forgiveness of sins and the Promise of being given God’s Spirit so that we can walk in all of His ways.

    Isaiah give us, that one man would justify us, one man would bare the sins of many, and make intercession for the transgressors. AND this one man is given God’s Spirit to fulfill his covenant and be for a light to both Jews and Gentiles. 

    FULL STOP BEREAN!

    Isaiah 42- A man of the seed of Jesse and David is called to RIGHTEOUSNESS by our Creator, he is given our Creator’s Spirit to be His SERVANT and fulfill His covenant. 

    Isaiah 53 – THIS RIGHTEOUS SERVANT shall justify many by bearing their iniquities.

    Our SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD IS OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, where we are saved through His Spirit, it was in Jesus according to God’s purpose to reconcile sinners where through justification we are then also promised to be given the Spirit.

    Berean, how long are you going to continue to skirt around the clear given word of God and deny the Good News?

    A man was in fact called to righteousness by our Creator, he then fulfilled all that our Creator asked of him, being truly a righteous servant not worthy of death. The man anointed of God’s Spirit who was then sent out into the world, did indeed walk in all of God’s ways and thus this anointed man then broke no laws of the covenant God gave by Moses.  Man can do nothing of himself, God’s work in Jesus declares to us that righteousness and life comes through God’s Spirit. Our desire is to receive God’s Spirit whereupon Jesus is made into a firstborn of many.

    A man through God’s Spirit coming to dwell in him was able to keep the laws of Moses, which that Spirit in him thus gives justification to all, for if all receive the Spirit all can also keep all of the law as Jesus did.

    Do you see how that works Berean? Let’s take this a bit further with aligning biblical facts!

    Paul tells us in Ephesians that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and truth.

    1 John 3 tells us that one must be born of God not to sin, you must be born of God having his seed remain in you to be righteous.

    What’s the seed that must remain in you that represents being born of God and causes righteousness?

    If you cannot declare that it is God’s Spirit that is the seed that you must be born of to then walk without sin and be righteous, then you dwell in darkness.

    If you cannot declare that Jesus is the prophesied man who was called to righteousness, who received the Spirit and was thus BORN OF GOD, BORN OF HIS SPIRIT having that seed remain in him, you dwell in darkness.

    If you cannot profess that Jesus was declared as God’s only begotten Son because he is the only man begotten of God’s Spirit without measure, filled with grace and truth where people beheld his glory because God was in him doing great works and speaking great words, you dwell in darkness.

    to be continued…

     

    #946641
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Continuing on,

    Highlighting again some biblical facts,

    The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    To be righteous is to be born of God having his seed remain in you.

    Righteousness comes through the Spirit of God, thus one being born of God is being born of His Spirit where that is the seed that must remain in you in order to not sin.

    Jesus is a firstborn of the dead, the firstborn of many brethren.

    Jesus himself preached that he was a man and that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter God’s kingdom.

    AND

    His baptism is our baptism and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of, which is the cup of the One Spirit.

    Jesus was baptized, doing so as Jesus said in order to fulfill all righteousness, where he came out of the water and the Spirit came to live in him, he himself was born of water and of the Spirit at the river Jordan.

    If the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth then of course Jesus needed to be filled with the Spirit in order to be sent out to fulfill all righteousness, you see how that works Berean? Further, no wonder God at that moment declared him to be His Son, for he had been born of the Spirit, where thus one cannot sin because they have been born of God.

     Jesus upon his resurrection according to Acts 2, we are told that he received the Spirit according to a Promise and Jesus upon his resurrection according to Acts 13, we are told that he was begotten by God according to a Promise given in Psalms 2.

    Berean, come out of the darkness of your false doctrine that is making you blind! Jesus upon his resurrection was begotten of God’s Spirit, God’s seed coming to dwell in him and remain in him forever, no more to return to corruption, given the sure mercies of David AND he was exalted into God’s Kingdom to sit at God’s right hand. 

    Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we are to be made into the image of the Son, that the son is a firstborn of many brethren. Paul gives us the exact image of what it means to be a Son, it is one who is Led by the Spirit of God, it is one where the Spirit living in you is a witness to your spirit that you are a Son of God.

    Berean you ignore the clear image of the Son that scripture provides us with and instead you follow a doctrine of misinterpreted passages that make Jesus into the likes of a pagan god.

    to be continued…

    #946642
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Do you not find it at all strange that the book of Acts does not support you? Can you find even one passage in that book that aligns with your doctrine? No sign of Jesus being our Creator….

    Me

    Heb.1
    [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO  he made the worlds;

    BY WHOM 

    👉ALSO👈

    HE MADE THE WORLDS

     

    #946644
    Admin
    Keymaster

    In none of what you said did you give a single passage where God said the Messiah was to be a go between so man can get to God.

    You lack understanding, God doesn’t put his full plan in the Old Testament. Rather, he reveals parts of his plan at the right time / season.

    Did Jesus say ‘today I have fulfilled the scripture that says ‘he will be a mediator?’.  Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, Jesus certainly used such language when the Old Testament had revealed something and he fulfilled it. But not all was revealed in the Old Testament and not all is revealed in any single book of the Old Testament which came at different times.

    Perhaps 1 Corinthians 2:8 has something to teach you.

    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 

    Imagine in WWII if the British published their whole plan with the idea to fulfill it later. The Germans would have used that information to subvert the plan.

    This is basic logic and I should be surprised that it needs to be explained. But, I know better. Even the most basic things need to be explained to many people because they are full of something and have no room even for basic truths and logic.

    #946645
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….You still have a problem with, The word (dia) a Greek word which means , “for the purpose of”, as in  cause by which something was done, or channel, not as the English word “by” meaning Jesus created the world himself. .  Jesus said clearly he could do “nothing” of himself, so how could he create anything himself?
    Jodi has presented it “exactly right” in her post to you, you would do well to heed her posts.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    #946646
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Still waiting for an answer to where else in the Tanakh it states the Messiah was to be “born of a virgin.” If it’s important, God repeats HIMSELF. The Isaiah 7 passage isn’t Messianic, the sign IS the child being old enough to reject evil and choose good, not the birth as the writer of Matthew wants to claim. Then to say it’s dual prophecy is utter foolishness because it can only be backed up with the minds of man and NOT God. This is why IT’S NOT OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    To keep saying the writer of Matthew records a biological lineage back to David isn’t proof. Anyone can come up with this Jewish family tree, because they kept track of their descendants. There is still this tiny problem with Matthew’s genealogy and that’s Jechoniah. I’m still waiting for where it’s stated he asked for forgiveness, God forgave him, and was restored to the throne of David; don’t want man’s interpretations or thoughts, I want where God said it. IT’S NEVER OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    I have asked how the Jesus could possibly be the true Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill who the Messiah is to be and what he’s to do, according to God, when he arrives and have given scriptural passages to back up who he will be and what he will do. And the response has been SILENCE!! Although I did get the unsupported weak answer, “the Jesus will accomplish all of it when he returns”; however, when pressed to support the “returning” scenario, everyone runs. Since the Messiah is spoken of in the Tanakh, that is where one must look to see who he will be and what he will do. Once again, IT’S NOT OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    Honestly, I would think after all these years of “studying” you could prove me wrong; but you haven’t, you continue to justify your beliefs with man made reasonings.

    #946647
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    @Gene,

    Jodi, you accuse me of “not acknowledging that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual”; but, you can’t tell me who is speaking where in this chapter, haven’t explained why the singular used here is any different than anywhere else in the Tanakh when God refers to Israel (the nation) as “a son”, AND you haven’t explained how or when the Jesus fulfills verse 10. So instead of accusations, correct me with God’s word and not your personal thoughts.

    Jodi, you also say “God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi”; except it does. You must explain why it took five “counsels” of man to canonize what is called the New Testament today, it started out with 22 books and later man added five more to make the current 27; why is there an almost 800 year gap between the writings of Malachi and this addition to the Jewish bible; please enlighten me why for the last almost 2000 years the writings contained in this New Testament are heavily debated and why there isn’t a single religion today who completely agrees on the written content. If this addendum to the Tanakh is of God, explain why people have been arguing the meaning John 1:1-3 for over 20 years here. If the NT is truly God Word, can there be any argument or debate in what it says?

    Gene, aren’t you going to comment on what a “mediator” is? Did Noah have a mediator to get to God? What about Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? Didn’t Moses speak directly with God? In none of these examples was a “mediator” used or required; but, today mankind needs a “mediator” to come before God…why???

    #946648
    Berean
    Participant

     

    HIS PRE-EXISTENCE, AND EQUALITY WITH THE FATHER
    The fact that Jesus is spoken of as the only begotten Son of God should be sufficient to establish a belief in his divinity. As Son of God, he must partake of the nature of God. “As the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.” John 5:26. Life and immortality are imparted to the faithful followers of God, but Christ alone shares with the Father the power to impart life. He has “life in himself,” that is, he is able to perpetuate his own existence. This is shown by his own words when, showing the voluntary nature of his sacrifice for man, he said: “I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” John 10:17, 18. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.1

    That Christ is divine is shown by the fact that he receives worship. Angels have always refused to receive worship and adoration. But we read of the Father, that “when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.” Hebrews 1:6. If he is to receive worship from angels, it follows as a matter of course that he should receive worship from men; and we find that even while here on earth, in the likeness of man, he received worship as God. The prophet John thus records the adoration which Christ will finally receive equally with the Father: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.2

    If Christ were not God, this would be idolatry. The great indictment against the heathen is that they “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator.” Romans 1:25. It matters not what the position of a creature may be, whether a beast, a man, or an angel, worship of it is strictly forbidden. Only God may be worshiped, and since Christ may be worshiped, Christ is God. So say the Scriptures of truth. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.3

    It is hardly necessary, with all this army of testimony, to speak of the pre-existence of Christ. One of the strangest things in the world is that men professing to believe and reverence the Bible, will claim that Christ had no existence prior to his birth of the Virgin Mary. Three texts only will be quoted here to disprove this theory, but texts which will be quoted later, on another point, will just as fully prove the pre-existence of Christ. The first text is in the prayer of Jesus, on the night of his betrayal. He said: “And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” John 17:5. We don’t know what could be plainer, unless it is the statement that he made the world. John says that “all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” John 1:3. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.4

    But stronger still are the words of the prophet, who foretold the place of the birth of the Messiah, in these words: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.” Micah 5:2, margin. He who would dispute the pre-existence of Christ, in the face of these texts, would deny that the sun shines at midday, if it suited his notion to do so. BEST October 1, 1889, page 298.1

    In arguing the perfect equality of the Father and the Son, and the fact that Christ is in very nature God, we do not design to be understood as teaching that the Father was not before the Son. It should not be necessary to guard this point, lest some should think that the Son existed as soon as the Father, yet some go to that extreme, which adds nothing to the dignity of Christ, but rather detracts from the honor due him, since many throw the whole thing away rather than accept a theory so obviously out of harmony with the language of Scripture, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since that is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” Colossians 1:19. Or, as the apostle states in Colossians 2:9, “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” It would be difficult to frame language more expressive of the divine nature. BEST October 1, 1889, page 298.2

    Some have difficulty in reconciling Christ’s statement in John 14:28, “My Father is greater than I,” with the idea that he is God, and is entitled to worship. Some, indeed, dwell upon that text alone as sufficient to overthrow the idea of Christ’s divinity; but if that were allowed, it would only prove a contradiction in the Bible, and even in Christ’s own speech, for it is most positively declared, as we have seen, that he is divine. There are two facts which are amply sufficient to account for Christ’s statement recorded in John 14:28. One is that Christ is the Son of God. While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ’s personality had a beginning. Then, too, the statement is emphatically true in view of the position which Christ had assumed. He “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:7, Revised Version. He was “made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death.” Hebrews 2:9. In order to redeem men, he had to come where they were. He did not lay aside his divinity, but he laid aside his glory, and veiled his divinity with humanity. So his statement, “My Father is greater than I,” is perfectly consistent with the claim, made by himself as well as by all who wrote of him, that he was and is God.

    By E. J. Waggoner

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