John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,781 through 25,800 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mankind has a sin problem.

    It needed a unique solution besides letting our souls die.

    God loved us, and didn’t want us to die.

    So the price for sin was paid in full for us.

    Death of the soul is the wages.

    Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God and died in our place.

    The carnal mind will not understand.

    But it is logical in that, if you are fined by a worldly institution, someone else can pay the fine and you will be free from its burden.

    #946692
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Holy means –set apart by our only one true God our Heavenly Father

    Before Jesus of Nazareth, a son of David, was even born, long time before that, even before the world began, God set him apart to be the one man where by his righteousness unto obedience we would be set free.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    Berean, this man brings forth judgment THROUGH the Spirit that is upon him and he likewise does not fail because the Spirit is upon him.

    5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    First of all Jesus is NOT the Creator he is of the Creation, he is of the people to whom God had given a spirit to walk therein by.

    Second, Paul gives you the image of the Son in Romans 8, those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and the Spirit bears witness to the human spirit that you are a child of God. The Spirit that came to live in Jesus bore witness to his spirit that he was a Son of God. He was to be a firstborn of many. Jesus is the man of prophecy to whom God called to righteousness where Paul also teaches that the fruit of the Spirit is in all righteousness. God held his hand and kept him so that he could fulfill the covenant, he was being fully led by the Spirit, a Son of God. 

    We are also given that God had promised that a son of David God would become a Father to him and give him an eternal throne and likewise the prophecy where David saw this son resurrected from the dead to then sit upon his throne. Acts speaks to Jesus being the promised son of David raised from the dead, given the Promised Spirit, exalted to God’s right hand and would according to the flesh sit on David’s throne.

    YHVH is the name of our Creator and this Creator gave His glory to one man elected from among the people to whom our Creator had given them a spirit to walk therein.  Our Creator gave His Spirit to this man, our Creator called this man to Righteousness where he would be a light. You turn and make this man into the Creator, a HUGE FALSEHOOD against clear given scripture where your attempted proof is to force your interpretation of the word “dia” rendering it as “by means of” instead of “by reason of”. YHVH our Heavenly Father created all things by Himself and He did it by reason of and for the man chosen from among his brethren to whom He would give His glory to. Your proof brings complete contradiction and is founded upon one bad interpretation applied to another bad interpretation as you completely ignore that this glory for this man was planned before the world began.

    “therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”

    The conceived Jesus in Mary’s womb was most certainly Holy -set apart, he was elected even before the world began to be the promised Messiah and be the promised Son of God.

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Berean, how long are you going to deny that Jesus was God’s word made true in the flesh? Jesus is the man to whom the Spirit came to dwell in him being called to righteousness/born of God to fulfill all righteousness. How long are you going to deny the image of the Son that Paul directly gives us?

    The baby Jesus was the promised Messiah, he was going to be the anointed one, he was going to be great and he was going to become the prophesied Son of God of the seed of David.

    Leading up to God’s word of prophecy being made true in the flesh of Jesus we know that as a child Jesus grew with the grace of God upon him and was being filled with God’s wisdom. What he was not from the time of his conception was the image of the likes of some pagan god, some kind of hybrid godman, whom you believe was perfect. NO, God perfected him, he was perfected as Paul told us he was, he was perfected learning obedience by what he suffered on the cross. By ONE MAN’S righteousness, the obedience of ONE MAN has mankind become justified. Righteousness came down from heaven via the Spirit of God that then was begotten in Jesus at the river Jordan.

    #946693
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:


    @Jodi
    ,

    In reference to post #946652

    Did you put the Jesus on the cross; if so, what did you do that put him there?

    ME: Why does your response not speak to what we were directly debating about?

    If the prophesy of Isaiah 53 is the words of the apostles giving the report of Jesus as savior to the people then the “our” and “we” most assuredly include the people to whom the apostles are preaching to. Do you see how it makes perfect sense?

     

    #946694
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….We have born witness of the truth, if they had the true “spirit of the truth”,  abiding in them they would acknowledge it, and be glad,  but our words are a witness against them , that they are not of the truth.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

     

    #946695
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Admin,

    You: Mankind has a sin problem.
    Me: Explain. I would assert it’s more of an obedience problem.

    You: It needed a unique solution besides letting our souls die.
    Me: So repenting, turning from wickedness, and God forgetting the sin isn’t good enough? What other possible “solution” could be required?

    You: God loved us, and didn’t want us to die.
    Me: Of course God loves HIS creation and desires no man die. HE tells us this in Ezk 18:32.

    You: So the price for death was paid in full for us.
    Me: Since sin equals death, this price “paid in full” was for the sins of man. So an innocent man took on the wickedness of the world and was the substitution in death for the guilty!?!??? I’ve never found where God said the innocent can take on the responsibility of the wicked; what I did find is God detests the acquittal of the guilty and condemnation of the innocent. Please explain to me how the Jesus took on the guilt of another and it was acceptable to God when HE said HE detests the condemnation of the innocent?

    #946696
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    (From post #946686)

    Did you put the Jesus on the cross; if so, what did you do that put him there?

    ME: Why does your response not speak to what we were directly debating about?

    If the prophesy of Isaiah 53 is the words of the apostles giving the report of Jesus as savior to the people then the “our” and “we” most assuredly include the people to whom the apostles are preaching to. Do you see how it makes perfect sense?

     

    You’re assumption is the apostles are the one’s speaking; is there any evidence supporting this? If the apostles are the ones speaking and includes those hearing them speak, then it was they who the servant “suffered and died” for (this is applying the pronouns as they are written with your assumptions of who’s who); if this isn’t a correct understanding, who do each of the pronouns represent?

    Additionally, does this text apply to those who read it in the future? If so, then wouldn’t they also be responsible for the death of this servant (presumed the Jesus); which then comes full circle to my question, Did you put the Jesus on the cross and how?

    #946698
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    Mankind has a sin problem.

    It needed a unique solution besides letting our souls die.

    ME:

    Before we read the word of God from Paul let us not forget prophecy from Isaiah of a son of David who God would give his Spirit to and call to righteousness to fulfill the covenant and another prophecy that the giving of the Spirit was an Anointing where then this anointed one was then sent to fulfill God’s will.

    Do you believe God’s prophecy was fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus? Did God give His Spirit to dwell in him and call him to righteousness? Just seems that this prophecy is completely ignored by you and others and you don’t apply it to other passages but instead give interpretations to passages that contradict this clear given truth which aligns with the word of God from Paul and elsewhere.

    Additional question, you really think that a man of flesh having God’s Spirit come to dwell in him without measure is not the same exact thing as being born of the Spirit, being born of God? Recall 1 John 3 where we are given the manifestation of the Son is also how God’s other children are manifested where those who are born of God are not able to sin as His seed remains in you. What is that seed if it is not the Spirit whose fruit is in all righteousness? This aligns as well perfectly with Isaiah 42 and God’s word from Paul. The prophecy was God would call him to righteousness, hold his hand and KEEP him to fulfill the covenant. As long as the Seed, God’s Spirit, remains in him he is kept from sin and able to fulfill the covenant. 

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    The Spirit of life was IN Christ and the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Well that makes sense since the Anointed One Jesus was anointed of the Spirit, he had the Spirit of life dwelling in him because through the Spirit he was CALLLED to righteousness.

    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    When Jesus had God’s Spirit descend upon him and was sent out into the world to do all of God’s will that was not Jesus being led by the Spirit and thus a Son?

    When Jesus spoke God’s words and did God’s works that was not the Spirit bearing witness to Jesus’s spirit that he indeed was a Son?

    One man’s obedience by his righteousness through God’s Spirit that came to dwell in him sin was condemned in the flesh. Through the Spirit dwelling IN A MAN sin in the flesh was given the death sentence. Jesus could be tempted just as all men are tempted, tempted to walk after/obey our weak mortal flesh, but the Spirit in Jesus of Nazareth was a more powerful influence where he was able to overcome, he was able to not serve his weak mortal flesh and instead serve God without fail.

    Jesus had to be a man to whom God called to righteousness or else there is no proof that God could then also call us to righteousness. We are justified in him because we sinned because we did not have God’s Spirit in us as Jesus was given, which proved it’s power over sin. We are justified in him because what God can accomplish in one man he can accomplish in all men. As we bore the image of the disobedient man we will bare the image of the righteous one. There is no Jesus needed to be a hybrid one of a kind being, he needed to become a righteous man able to walk in all of God’s ways and thus worthy of eternal life.

    By one man’s disobedience we were all given weak mortal flesh that we must serve in order to survive bound in chains in the fear of death. Jesus broke those chains as his weak mortal flesh with the fear of death had no power over the Spirit in him where he trusted in God obeying him unto his death, he most certain believed in the glory that God had prepared for him since before the world began and he took that to the cross. As Paul tells us, he was perfected through suffering on the cross, he succeeded in the ultimate test of faith.

    The disobedient man was carnally minded and it brought forth sin and the punishment of weak mortal flesh able to die and this was then subjected to all of mankind.

    The obedient man was spiritually minded for the Spirit of God came to dwell in him without measure and it brought forth righteousness unto eternal life and this gift is promised to all of mankind, righteousness through the Spirit unto eternal life. The gift is given to those who have faith and hope that Jesus is truly a firstborn of many brethren, a Son who is led by God’s Spirit walking in all of God’s ways.

     

    #946699
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Here is a very condensed post for you

    YOU:

    Mankind has a sin problem.

    It needed a unique solution besides letting our souls die.

    ME: 

    Yes, mankind has a sin problem which is because only God is good and without His Spirit dwelling in us we can bare no fruit of righteousness.

    The solution, God called a man to righteousness giving him His Spirit without measure and by this man’s righteousness having been perfected being obedient going to the cross, mankind is justified for the Spirit in him was proof that a man can obey all of God’s commands.

    Our faith and hope is that Jesus is truly a firstborn of many brethren, a Son who is led by God’s Spirit through it dwelling within and able to walk in all of God’s ways. Righteousness unto eternal life.

    #946700
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    The solution, God called a man…

    Me

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth👉 in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world 👉through him might be saved.

     

    And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
    [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
    [25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
    [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
    [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that👉 I came out from God.👈
    [28]👉 I came forth from the Father,👈 

    and

    👉am come into the world: 👈

    again,

    👉I leave the world, and go to the Father.
    [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    [30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    [31] Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    [32] Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    [33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

     

     

    #946707
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    The perfect way to explain what being begotten by God or born of God means is to say God’s Spirit has descended from heaven and has come to dwell within you!

     

    #946708
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Yes Jesus, THE SON OF MAN, as he declared, came forth from the Father, to which Jesus also phrased as coming down from heaven.

    WHO does Jesus say came down from heaven in John 3, he said THE SON OF MAN!

    Jesus also said in John 3,

    “Except a MAN be BORN OF water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    John says, “34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    Matthew 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, THIS IS my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Jesus of Nazareth was born of water and of the Spirit, he was born of the Spirit without measure, which made him an only begotten Son. 

    Jesus of Nazareth was the prophesied son of David to whom God had promised He would become a Father to. 

    This Jesus was raised from the dead and received the Promised Spirit which was the fulfillment of “this day I have begotten thee” and this resurrected Jesus born of the Spirit was exalted into God’s kingdom appointed to sit at God’s right hand. 

    Jesus, the promised son of David, is a man who was born of the Spirit and entered into the kingdom of God! This Son of Man is returning in our Father’s glory.

    Jesus is our forerunner, he is a firstborn of many, where we will follow him as he declared, in the New Birth when he sits on the throne of his glory. For his baptism is our baptism and we drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit. And those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. 

     

    #946709
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Did you or did you not put the Jesus on the cross? Is this question to difficult?

    Why do you believe it’s the apostles speaking in Isaiah 53?

    Can you explain why the writer of Matthew in 2:15 takes Hosea 11:1 out of context, calling it a “fulfillment” of the prophet, by applying it to the Jesus when the Hosea passage speaks of God calling the nation of Israel out of Egypt and then refers to them as HIS son?

    Please explain Matt 3:3 where John is “quoting” Isaiah “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’” and claiming it’s a reference to the Jesus; after reading Isaiah 40:3 it’s speaking of God and not the Jesus.

    Then you must help me understand Matt 4:12-16, its relation to Isa 9:1-2, and how the Jesus fulfilled the words of Isaiah by going to Capernaum.

    What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; find me the passage where God said to “hate your enemy.”

    How can this NT be “the word of God” when it’s filled with lies? How can this NT be “the word of God” when no one agrees with what it says? Why doesn’t anyone have the same understanding IF it’s the “word of God”?

    What’s “baffling” is how people ignore these types of discrepancies; turning a blind eye to them. So sad…

    #946710
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.(John 1:29)

    How can one man, even if he is filled with the Holy Spirit, take away 👉THE SIN OF THE WORLD ???

    #946711
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT,

    YOU:

    Did you or did you not put the Jesus on the cross? Is this question to difficult?

    Why do you believe it’s the apostles speaking in Isaiah 53?

    ME: Neither of your questions are difficult at all, I just find them to be stupid questions because it does seem like you should already know my answers.

    We are all sinners, but God has promised to give us a new heart and put His Spirit in us and cause us to walk in all of His ways.

    I don’t think that I have made it more clear that I believe in the books of the NT where within the apostles are clearly identified as those who reported to others of he who was wounded for our transgressions. John himself speaks to Isaiah 53 directly.

    John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    People who were a witness to Jesus directly didn’t all believe in him and those who the apostles preached to about him also did not all believe in him.

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge my righteous servant shall justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Who is YHVH’s righteous servant of Isaiah 53 if he does not represent the man of Isaiah 42 who God gave His Spirit to and called to righteousness to be for a light?…or the man of Isaiah 11 who YHVH gives His Spirit of knowledge to, along with wisdom, understanding, council and might and where therein “Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist“?

    DT, who do you think is God’s “righteous servant” and who represents the “our” in Isaiah 53?

    #946712
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT, I will answer your other questions later today.

    #946713
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.(John 1:29)

    How can one man, even if he is filled with the Holy Spirit, take away 👉THE SIN OF THE WORLD ???

    ME: I would suggest reading back through some of my latest posts and the scriptures I provided, but allowing me to recap.

    Read Romans 5! 

    One man brought sin and death and another man brought forth righteousness to eternal life.

    One man can take away the sins of the world because that is EXACTLY God’s WORD! 

    The sins of the world were taken away/our redemption, CAME THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF ONE MAN where that obedience to our Heavenly Father occurred through our Father giving Jesus His Spirit without measure, which was prophecy fulfilled of a man being called to righteousness, for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and truth. 

    “He whom God had sent speaks the word of God for God had given the Spirit unto him without measure. The Father loveth the Son and have given all things into his hands”. A man must be born of the Spirit, but the Spirit descending upon the man Jesus for it to live in him, is NOT Jesus being born of the Spirit?

    Jesus was sent out into the world upon having received the Spirit to abode in him, this is the same thing as being begotten by God, begotten of God’s Spirit and having it remain in him. God then sent this only begotten Son into the world where he would be persecuted and die for our sins.

    The “he” who God sent was he who was born of the Spirit, which is God’s Word made true in the flesh and is God’s Word that He had declared before the world even began. Jesus of Nazareth is the firstborn of The Word!

    Berean, God’s word is that He would call one man from among the people and give him His glory a glory that was ONLY for this one man. That glory was the full measure of God’s Spirit, that glory was Jesus becoming and only begotten Son filled with grace and truth where the people beheld that glory.

    That glory was “God in him doing the works” and you want to tell me God being in him through His Spirit is not Jesus having been born of God?

    No other mortal man was born of the Spirit without measure and this man was raised from the dead where he “received the Promised Spirit”/ “on this day have I begotten thee” where he then was exalted entering into God’s kingdom to sit at God’s Right Hand.  Just as Jesus said, a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.

    #946714
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Unfortunately, at this time, I am unable to read your mind which is why I asked if you did or did not put the Jesus on the cross? It requires a simple, yes I did or no I didn’t. If you would like to offer your explanation to why you did or did not, that’s up to you.

    PS The Ezek passage you quote, to whom was that given, the Jews or the world?

    #946715
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    Are you telling me that you have not comprehended that I believe Jesus is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 who was wounded for my transgressions? I just find that extremely hard to believe, hence why I find your question stupid. And who are you to ask a person to confess their sins to?

    According to Isaiah 53, whoever you believe the righteous servant represents, God in fact had this servant pour his soul unto death to make intercession for transgressors. 

    YOU: The Ezek passage you quote, to whom was that given, the Jews or the world?

    ME: It was given to Israel, not just the Jews of the tribe of Judah.

    As you should know by now I believe in the NT and the promise given to Israel of receiving God’s Spirit is also a promise for Gentiles, which makes sense because the OT tells us that all nations will be blessed, that the Messiah brings blessings and peace to all nations, that the whole earth will be filled with the glory of God and that God made humans to live in His image, not just Israel. Existing in his image is through having His Spirit living in you, which was his Word before the world even began.

     

     

    #946716
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Are you telling me that you have not comprehended that I believe Jesus is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 who was wounded for my transgressions?

    Me: So are you saying you put the Jesus on the cross?

    #946717
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I’m going to start with this one,

    YOU: What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; find me the passage where God said to “hate your enemy.”

    ME: 

    Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    Jesus didn’t say, heard by the word of God. Jesus didn’t say, heard from the scriptures.

    “read in the scriptures” is what Jesus says specifically in Matthew 21:42 and we see in other instances Jesus specifically mention “the scriptures”, but he didn’t do that in Matthew 5, so how do you know for sure he was speaking of OT scripture? You actually don’t, right? and if you can’t prove it than you’ve committed slander. Seems most likely to me that he was referencing that which people heard from the Pharisees, those who loved adding their own traditions or perhaps one of the other Jewish sects.

     

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