John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,621 through 25,640 (of 25,988 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #946380
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
    Who dwelt among us?
    Jesus Christ!

    Anyway, I need to rest.

    God bless you and take care.

    #946381
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Below speaks to the Messiah, he is begotten by God becoming a Son, he is a king inheriting the earth for his possession and he destroys the wicked. Blessed are them who trust in the Son.

    Me

    The truth is that Jesus was already THE SON OF GOD AND HE WAS GOD 👉BUT TO SAVE HUMANITY “HE WAS MADE FLESH” AND THUS HE BECAME BY HIS BIRTH, LIFE, DEATH AND RESURRECTION👉 THE SON OF GOD BUT IN👉 A NEW SENSE (SINCE HE LEAD THE FIGHT AGAINST SATAN AND HIS WORKS BEING IN THE FLESH BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT)

    👇
    THE 3 STEPS FOR THE SON OF GOD

    👇
    I) being👉 in the form of God👈,

    👉thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    B) BUT 👉made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and👉 was made in the likeness of men:👈

    C) And being found in fashion as a man,
    👉 he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,👉 even the death of the cross.

    AMEN!

    #946382
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: but you disagree with him being the true “Messiah” something I know he was and is.

    Me: How do you “know” Jesus is? What facts can you give? What proofs are available to support your “belief”? Since the Messiah was first spoken of in the Tanakh one must begin looking here and anything spoken of the Messiah in the Tanakh MUST have been accomplished by Jesus.

    Please go back to post 946290, is the Messiah to accomplish all these or not and did Jesus fulfilled any of the “requirements” given by God for the Messiah? Can Jesus be the Messiah if he missed fulfilling ONE of these “requirements”?

    The biggest conflict between the Jewish bible and the Christian bible is the restoration of Israel and christianity cannot resolve it because they reject the Jewish people. What does it mean when you claim to “support Israel”? You have nothing nice to say about the people, so it’s not the people you support; the only thing left is the land or is it the name “Israel” you “support”?

    #946383
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….where does it say that the “Messiah” would do all his work at his “FIRST” APPEARANCE, that is you adding to the text, it simply say that he will perform those things , and he will at his return, which is soon to come.  You’re putting your own times of complete accomplishments,  when scripture does not .
    Jesus’ first appearance as the Messiah of God, was clearly known by the  Jewish leaders of his day, they understood that  prophesy, written in the book of DANIEL , which tells of when he would be born , Dan 9:25_26,   Read also Matt 2 :1-12, Luke 1:28-32

    They had no problem of knowing the time of the Messiah, why do you?

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

    #946384
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    The TRUE Israël IS those “they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.(Rev.14:12)

    Rom.9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Rom.2:28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

     

    #946385
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny and All,

    YOU:

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
    Who dwelt among us?
    Jesus Christ!

    ME:

    Yes indeed, Jesus Christ dwelt among the people, having been sent by God out into the world upon the Spirit of God having come to abode in him.

    Verse 14 of John speaks exactly to my position.

    The Word is the WORD of God according to Isaiah made true in the flesh of Jesus at the river Jordan. The Word is the Promised Spirit of YHVH coming to dwell in Jesus, YHVH dwelling in him, such is to be begotten of YHVH. 

    a few things,

    The Word, as in YHVH’s Spirit dwelling in the promised Messiah, was a calling to righteousness where he would be for a LIGHT, John 1 also speaks to this very LIGHT and it was unto a glory ONLY for him.

    He had been FILLED with, the Spirit of Wisdom, of Understanding, of Council and Might, of Knowledge and Fear of YHVH, and being FULL of such grace and truth he was sent by YHVH to preach the TRUTH. 

    John 1:14 And the Word (the promised Spirit of YHVH aboding in the promised Messiah) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jesus being begotten of the Spirit of YHVH, having YHVH in him and him being sent to preach the Truth was a beginning, the beginning of YHVH’s Word made true in the flesh. 

    The Word that Jesus preached was the PROMISED SPIRIT of YHVH, a promise to the people that they would be born of the Spirit also, a promise to receive the baptism he received and drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit. Jesus would be a firstborn of many brethren. Where the Spirit is there is life, eternal life, which was YHVH’s PROMISE before the world began. 

    What does John 1 say leading up to verse 14 that speaks to this,

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Jesus made it clear that he was a Son of Man and what did he say, “that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.” We are also told that the Son of Man was exalted to God’s right and that it is the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory, where when he returns we have been PROMISED to be made as he is, which is to have the Spirit of YHVH in us to the cause that we too will be able to walk in all of YHVH’s ways, having righteousness which by righteousness there is eternal life.  

    THIS JESUS and HIS GLORY, bringing forth salvation to make many Sons of God giving the Promised Spirit unto eternal life, was all of God from the beginning, without THIS JESUS, this firstborn of many brethren, nothing that YVHV had made would have been made.

    #946386
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Thanks for proving my point to Danny, where you COMPLETELY IGNORE clear scriptures and then go about interpreting other passages WITHOUT them!

    Let’s first acknowledge that you completely ignore the context given, the fact that Paul is telling folks that they need to be like minded with “Christ”.  You ignore the passages where Jesus said that he is not of the world as they are not of the world and that as God sent him they are sent. Jesus was anointed of the Spirit (without measure) and was sent out into the world, not being of the world but being from heaven, directly from God and they received the Spirit (by measure, but together they equated to the body of Christ) and they were also sent out into the world also not being of the world but being of heaven, directly from God. By such they too could find themselves in the form of God and thus why they needed to be like minded with Christ Jesus. 

    The “anointed Jesus”, the Son of Man who was anointed of the Spirit, was he who was in the form of God.

    Let’s look at clear scripture that tells us that the verse is speaking of  the “anointed Jesus” and not a pre-existing god.

    1. The verse itself directly tells us that it is speaking of the “anointed Jesus”. You ignore the clear scripture of WHEN it says he was anointed and when he it says he was sent.
    2. John 3 tells us that Jesus received YHVH’s Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE, this would certainly equate him to being in the form of YHVH.
    3. “John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.” This clearly equates to the “anointed Jesus” being in the form of God. Jesus not only had YHVH in him without measure, but also upon him having been begotten of YHVH, he was SENT  to do YHVH’s works, he was sent to speak YHVH’s words, all in YHVH’s name. 

    Jesus finding himself in the form of God could see himself equal to God, but he was a servant of God only doing God’s will, forsaking at all times his own and he made it clear that he was doing nothing of himself, he gave all credit to the Father. Those being sent ALSO needed to be of this mind. 

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Berean, how is it that “Christ Jesus” “was made in the likeness of men” and then found himself “in fashion as a man” and humbled himself”? When God made him “who knew no sin to be sin for us” and when he was “numbered with transgressors”, that is how! Jesus was not deserving of death, but he humbled himself and went to the cross unto his death.

    Guess what, those also being sent out needed to be like minded in this as well, having faith in YHVH and His WORD declared from the beginning, and willing to be persecuted unto death. “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    WHO was exalted to God’s right hand? The Son of Man Jesus of Nazareth that is who. “Being exalted” is not returning, it is being lifted up to where you were not before. Such was YHVH’s word before the world even began. God’s promise, from the beginning fulfilled, that which He had given to David concerning David’s seed, that He would settle a seed of David into His House and His Kingdom forever and give him an eternal throne exalting him to having possession over all the earth.

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    It’s all to the glory of God the Father!!

    It’s all to the glory of YHVH’s Spirit that came to abode in Jesus. The anointed of the Spirit Jesus is our lord, our master according to the glory of the Father, YHVH’s Spirit in Jesus.

    This is obvious when you read Isaiah 11. Your master, your judge Berean, is a man who judges righteously not by his own eyes and ears but through the Spirit of righteousness that is upon him. That righteousness, him being led in all ways by the Spirit, makes him a Son. 

    Berean, you deny the Spirit of YHVH and thus you deny the Son and the Father. You cannot even acknowledge that scripture directly tells you that a man was called to righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant to be for a light to all people. You turn the glory of the Father, the glory in Jesus into a LIE. All you do is make Jesus into the likes of a pagan god.

    #946387
    Berean
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Stop getting excited with your big speeches that prove nothing.
    You can NEVER CONTRARY THAT JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, WAS WITH THE FATHER IN THE BEGINNING AND THAT HE WAS GOD, AND THAT HE WAS MADE FLESH.
    IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

    #946388
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: where does it say that the “Messiah” would do all his work at his “FIRST” APPEARANCE

    Me: When did God say the Messiah was to come twice? Where in the Tanakh did God say the Messiah was to show up, not do anything HE said, but will the second time? To claim I’m “adding to the text” is false; I’m adding nothing to anything, but reading what is there; seems it’s christianity who has “added” to the Jewish bible to make the Christian bible work.

    What’s humorous is how christianity rejects the Jewish understanding of THEIR scripture; this was given to THEM by God and christianity has the audacity to tell them they don’t have a clue and their understanding is false?!?!? That’s some serious arrogance! Especially when christianity still argues the meaning of the Christian bible (NT).

    Where does the Tanakh say one is to “believe” in the Messiah for salvation; God says salvation is found in HIM? Is Jesus going to gather the Jewish nation back to their land and why isn’t this mentioned anywhere in the Christian bible (NT); yet God speaks of this restoration everywhere thru most of the prophets. When Jesus “returns” is he bringing peace or judgment and destruction? Explain the battle in Zech 12 where God destroys all the nations that came against Jerusalem and in Zech 14 those who survived this battle will now go to Jerusalem to worship God every year and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Where does the Jesus messiah factor in all this?

    It’s no wonder the modern church all but ignores the writing of God’s prophets; if people knew what the prophets wrote and the lies the church peddles, there would be nothing left of the church today.

    In a previous post you quoted the verse about Jesus being the moderator between God and man, think on this for a moment; we are all God creation, thus HIS children, when your children want to speak to you do they go thru another or do they speak to you directly? Explain why God, our Father, would require you to have a “representative” that comes to HIM on your behalf when you don’t require it of your children?

    #946389
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……So what do you do with where it says in Daniel that the Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the week?  Please explain that scripture to us.  AND WHAT ABOUT THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY God would not leave his soul in hell to see corruption ?  How do you get around those scriptures, not to mention what Isaiah said about God having put on him the sins of us all.

    I gave you those  scriptures,  but you just simply ignore them, as if they are not even written in our scriptures,  it’s kinda like you simply write your own Bible leaving out the things that don’t agree with your understanding.

    No where does scriptures say the Nation of Israel suffered for anyone’s sins but their own sins is what they suffered for.  But Jesus suffered for or better  (because of our sins) and the sins of the world, even for the sins of Israel.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #946390
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean you said………”The TRUE Israël IS those “they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.(Rev.14:12)” ,

    So tell us what was the Faith of Jesus, was it in himself or in God the Father.  If we have the Faith of Jesus then that Faith will be in “God the Father , just as his Faith was.

    That is not to say we don’t believe in what Jesus said, but if we do believe in what he said, then all our Faith will be in God the Father , just as his Faith was.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #946391
    Berean
    Participant

    @Gene

    You Say: So tell us what was the Faith of Jesus, was it in himself or in God the Father.

    Me

    Why in himself ?

    In the Father resolutely by the power of the holy Spirit of God. His faith is an example for us all.
    Gene, what you definitely don’t see is that Jesus, although he is God in the nature of God the Father,
    took on our human nature  (Rom.8:3) and lived as every born-again child of God should live in the prayer of faith and the power of the Holy Spirit.
    👉Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, 👉and took upon him the form of a servant, and👉 was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found👉 in fashion as a man👈, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.( Phil.2)

    For I came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of him that sent him.( John 6:38)

    A few hours before his trial, in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said: Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    🙏

     

    #946392
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…… If Jesus had all those “ADVANTAGES” OVER US THAT YOU GIVE HIM, THEN HE COULD NOT QULIFY,  TO BE A “MESSIAH”.  Him overcoming the world, and him telling we must also overcome “as he did” , would have been a lie, because he would have had a great advantage over us, by being a PREEXISTING BEING”  with all the foreknowledge we simply don’t have.  He would not been “exactly” like we are. So his example to us would have been  fraudulent .  He had to be “EXACTLY” the same as we are to qualify to be our true example, and that means he could not have been a “preexisting” being, before his birth on this earth.

    IT ALSO WOULD,  completely destroy GOD the FATHERS work in humanity, by sending someone who was not truly  “EXACTLY” the same as we are in “EVERY” WAY. The way you view and preach him gives him a complete unfair advantage over the rest of mankind.   

    THE JESUS YOU PREACH IS NOT,  THE JESUS OF SCRIPTURE. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

     

    #946401
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    #946402
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If Jesus had all those “ADVANTAGES” OVER US THAT YOU GIVE HIM, THEN HE COULD NOT QULIFY,  TO BE A “MESSIAH”.  Him overcoming the world, and him telling we must also overcome “as he did” , would have been a lie, because he would have had a great advantage over us, by being a “PREEXISTING BEING”  with all the foreknowledge we simply don’t have.  He would not been “exactly” like we are. So his example to us would have been  fraudulent .  He had to be “EXACTLY” the same as we are to qualify to be our true example, and that means he could not have been a “preexisting” being, before his birth on this earth.

    Scripture shows you the way if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.…

    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    If you cannot say Amen, then you have a problem with the faith.

    Notice that Jesus emptied himself, so that means he didn’t have an advantage over us. He became one of us.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    #946403
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean…… If Jesus had all those “ADVANTAGES” OVER US THAT YOU GIVE HIM, THEN HE COULD NOT QULIFY,  TO BE A “MESSIAH”.  Him overcoming the world, and him telling we must also overcome “as he did”

    Here’s the problem. Adam was created perfect, but because of free will, he chose to go his own way.

    Now you expect a man born in sin to overcome without divine help and be perfect.

    In reality however, Adam sinned, but the final Adam saved us.

    Just as Adam was different, yet failed, so it is with the final Adam who was different. But he did not fail.

    Your insistence on being saved by a man just like you is foolish.

    Why not just ask your own brother to save you, because all men have sinned.

    But Jesus did not sin.

    So he is not like your own flesh brother at all.

    He is the final Adam, the Son of God, the messiah.

    Even the angel of the LORD said that he was these things when he was a baby.

    Listen to the Holy Messenger deliver the truth:

    “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.”

    #946404
    Berean
    Participant

    Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.”

    Amen !

    #946405
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……First of all , you don’t understand what a “Messiah”  is.  A Messiah is and has to be a pure human being. like Moses, and other human God used from the human race, by anointing them with his Holy Spirit.

    Second,  no scripture says Jesus was “born” , before Abraham, that is your interpretation of what before means.  But I see it as being “more important” than Abraham was, to us all.  The Jews of his day thought that their tie to Abraham was more important than Jesus was to them. So what Jesus was telling them was that he was more important and that they should put him before Abraham in importance to them. John the Baptist basically said the same thin, when he told them God could raise up those stones unto Abraham if he wanted to.

    The “only” advantage  Jesus had was he had the fullness of the SPIRIT OF GOD, abiding in him.  When Jesus was on this earth he had the “Nature of God” in him,   That was talking about when he was on this earth, AND  not and had nothing to do with when he was a so-called,  “PREXISTING” Being, as you and other Falsely  assume.

    I maintain , JESUS was and still is a 100 % human being , nothing more and nothing less.  A perfected “human being”, That God the Father had in mind before he ever created a single human, and a example,  for all his created human race to come to be “exactly” like him, by the same power Jesus had, the Spirit of the living GOD ” DWELLING IN US”,  enabling us to become “exactly” the same as JESUS .

    You or no one else, has ever produced a single scripture showing any activity of JESUS before his birth on this earth.

    Peace and love to you and your Proclaimer………gene

    #946406
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Response to 946389. Covering a lot in this response; hopefully you take the time and read it all; the last comment concerning Isa 53 is the primary focus of this response.

    You: what do you do with where it says in Daniel that the Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the week?

    Me: Would you listen to what I have to say or would you just ignore it and count it as false because it doesn’t agree with your religion? Would it be a waste of my time to explain what’s written?

    You: WHAT ABOUT THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY God would not leave his soul in hell to see corruption?

    Me: Whose soul? David’s? When you quote this verse have you read this specific passage in context with the rest of the Psalm? David is speaking in this chapter about himself. The word here is Sheol, NOT hell as the Kings James states, and means grave. Last I checked everyone ends up in the grave; good and evil alike. The word translated as “corruption” really means “pit” and according to Strong’s, the “pit of Sheol.” Do a simple “word study”, but use the original (Hebrew) as your base of study and not translated words of biased people.

    You: I gave you those scriptures, but you just simply ignore them, as if they are not even written in our scriptures

    Me: Your scriptures, hmmm?!? When have you answered a single question I’ve asked concerning an explanation of a passage?!? Still waiting for an explanation of the genealogy accounts given by Matthew and Luke and how they’re accurate when Matthew has the lineage going thru Jeconiah and Luke thru Nathan to get to Jesus; both are false and do NOT align with what God said. Still waiting for an explanation of Isa 7:14 being a prophecy for the birth of Jesus when the prophecy was given to King Ahaz to reassure him Judah wouldn’t be overthrown. Still waiting for how Jesus was able to stump the Pharisees after quoting Ps 110:1 (Psalm written to David, NOT by David and you believe the Pharisees didn’t know this!?? It’s christianity who doesn’t know the Psalm was written to David). Still waiting for the OT verses that Paul quotes saying the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind and be buried and raised up on the third day (NOT Isa 53 – no messiah mentioned, just a “servant” whom you assume is the messiah because that’s what you were told – or Jonah no matter how much you “believe” it is). Still waiting for the OT verse that says the innocent can pay for the sins of the guilty; yet Jesus atoned for the sins of mankind. Still waiting for the OT verse that says one is to believe in the messiah to be saved; isn’t God the source of salvation? Still waiting for the OT verse where God said he was sending a “moderator” so you can “communicate” with HIM; because praying to HIM is impossible without the Jesus. Before you say I “ignore” a scripture, pick up that mirror and take a long hard look.

    You: No where does scriptures say the Nation of Israel suffered for anyone’s sins but their own sins is what they suffered for.

    Me: Isaiah 53 isn’t speaking of Israel “suffering for anyone’s sins”; but baring the result of the sins of others. Knowing who is speaking where in this section is an extremely important aspect of the passage and if one doesn’t know, how can one fully understand what’s happening? The first part is the nations speaking of the atrocities they have done to the nation of Israel and it’s the nations admitting it was they who sinned against Israel by what they did to them. Isa 52:15 tells us the nations have a revelation of what they did and rolls into who “will believe our report.”

    An analogy to hopefully explain this more clearly, a father who beats his child because they took a cookie they where told they couldn’t have; should the child be punished for taking the cookie? The obvious is they should be punished for the disobedient act; but to be beaten, we would agree is over the top. Would you consider the father sinful for having beaten the child even though the child was disobedient and wouldn’t this child then bare the sins of their father? This scenario is no different than what is spoken of in Isa 52:13-53:12; the nations, by the revelation of God, come to realize their sin for having treated the Israelite’s so harshly. If all you can do is look at a few verses from chapter 53 and claim it points to Jesus but are unable to explain how the rest of it points to Jesus (like verse 10), you may have the wrong understanding.

    Are you following current events? Since Oct 7, 2023 Jewish communities have been the target of attacks and vandalism outside of Israel and they “deserve” this how? Multiple university campuses in the United States currently have riot police dispersing these “pro Hamas protests” that are actually “anti Israel protests” as they call for the death of Jewish people. In a recent article a student at Columbia University is quoted saying “Zionist don’t deserve to live.” Antisemitism is growing around the world and do the Jewish people deserve to be treated as though they’re a plague on this planet? Can you explain why the Jewish people have been the target of hate throughout history? What is happening to the Jewish people today IS Isaiah chapter 53.

    #946407
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…… no matter what anyone say and what scriptures they give you, to support their claim, you simply ignore them or simply say they don’t mean what they say , now you say the book of Plams was a book written “to” David , instead of DAVID writing it,  them you say it was saying the David would not suffer the corruption of his body in the grave which you con-screw as not meaning the grave.  Then you tell us that Isaiah was not talking about a human being suffering the Sin of the people but that it was Israel.  So tell us how was Israel’s body  marred more then  anyone else.

    DT, your what, I call, “a Gandy dancer, ” ,  YOUR ALL OVER THE PLACE , trying to make your own new ideas of what the scriptures actually say,  saying the “original” Hebrew means this or that, to support you false conclusions,  IMO,

    SO there is not point in debating you on any scripture, because you will just say “you didn’t answer my question, according to who’s thinking? , yours of course. You not here for an honest debate, but to push your own form of religion, the very thing you accuse others of is what you are doing.  Look if your new found religion rejects Jesus as  the true Messiah of God, that’s fine with me, but don’t think for a minute,  I or others here think that, that’s your huckleberry not ours. You or anyone else Jew or Gentile , will never convince me of that.  You can hate  the apostle Paul all you want also , but to me and and the apostle Peter think,  he was one of the most intelligent of all the Apostles.

    I am not going to sit here and argue with you over and over about,  “your brand of new religious thoughts”  that includes the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, Paul as a true apostle, and hundreds of other scripture also , it’s a waste of our time. IMO.

    Peace and love to you and your DT………..gene

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