John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,601 through 25,620 (of 25,988 total)
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  • #946349
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    Just to answer your two questions:

    Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ did fulfill all righteousness. He he was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Yes, I believe that the Spirit of YHWH came on Jesus Christ after his baptism. But Jesus was already the Christ.
    Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    And of course the fruit of the Spirit is truly in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    #946350
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You are WRONG

    GOD AND the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD WERE TOGETHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    THAT IS WHAT JOHN SAY IN JOHN 1

    AND 17

    JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE BY WHOM THE FATHER ACT IN CREATION, REDEMPTION AND FINALY JUDGMENT.

    God is my witness that I speak the truth.

    Amen !

     

    #946351
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    Are you okay with a corrupt version being used as truth? The question still remains unanswered, why would Jesus be reading from a Greek translation and not the original Hebrew? This doesn’t cause you to pause and question the veracity of what Luke wrote?

    me

    As I already told you, the Septuagint Bible is not my reference, it is the King James.
    For Jesus, when he read in the synagogue, he read the scroll that was in that synagogue.
    This is what Luke relates.

     

     

    And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
    [17] And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    [18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

     

     

     

     

    #946352
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    I hope you are doing better!

    You provided,

    Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    To give proof that Jesus was already the Christ before his baptism at the river Jordan.

    This is the passage that others including Proclaimer has given as proof.

    I ask, were we saved by the birth of Jesus? Or is the text telling us that the baby Jesus is our promised savior where we know that he fulfilled becoming our savior upon his death?

    Do you believe baby Jesus was lord and if so who was  baby Jesus a master over and what did lord baby Jesus do as a master? Do you see where I am going with this?! Baby Jesus was not yet a savior,  nor was he yet Christ our lord. Luke 2 is identifying baby Jesus as the human to whom God would fulfill in him Isaiah’s prophecies, he who would be anointed of God’s Spirit and he who would bare our sins on the cross.

    When Jesus died on the cross he became our savior and he who was nailed to the cross was at that time most certainly Christ our lord.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed (mashach) me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound..

    Mashach – to be anointed

    Mashiyach- anointed one

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed (chrio) me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    chrio- to anoint

    Christos- anointed

    Jesus clearly became Mashiyach/Christos upon the Spirit descending from heaven coming to abode in him.

    #946353
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You: For Jesus, when he read in the synagogue, he read the scroll that was in that synagogue.
    This is what Luke relates.

    Me: The point Berean is Jesus wouldn’t have been reading from a Greek translation in a synagogue. This is a corruption of the text and you don’t question it. Never mind the fact “Jesus” completely takes out of context what is being said in Isa 61, read it for yourself.

    I keep tell all, when you see a quote from the OT to look it up to see if it matches; hopefully one day someone will actually do it.

    #946355
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    I believe that Christ fulfilled all that was written in ISAIAH 61:1
    And even though Luke adds more, I believe the Spirit of God guided him.
    Jesus healed the physically blind many times (not to mention spiritual blindness)

    #946356
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    Thanks. I know and feel that Jesus Christ came in me.
    But still the battle goes on but I feel peace inside.
    I understand your point about baby Jesus.
    Honestly, I don’t have a problem if Jesus became the Christ at his baptism. If that’s what happened then Amen to that.
    I just want the Bible truth. I’m open to correction.
    There is a Bible verse that Proclaimer often cited 1 John 4:2
    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    Doesn’t this mean that Jesus was already the Christ before coming in the flesh?

    #946357
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You: I believe that Christ fulfilled all that was written in ISAIAH 61:1

    Me: But the passage has nothing to do with Jesus; so you believe a lie…understood! What I find fascinating is you believe something you’re unable to explain.

    If Jesus was the fulfillment of this, then Jesus would have brought the message God was going to do the following:

    Comfort all those in mourning, give those the oil of joy instead of mourning, give those the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit, and be “planted” as oak of righteousness. Did God do this while Jesus was here?

    The people are to rebuild ancient ruins, erect the former deserted places, restore devastated cities. Was this accomplished during or after Jesus was here?

    It continues with the strangers tending their flock and foreigners tending their fields and vineyards; who is this “their” and why are strangers and foreigners doing the work for this people?

    Then it explicitly states those being addressed will be called priests of God. Who are the “priests of God”?

    This is the “good news” Isaiah is speaking of; did Jesus ever bring any of this news to the Israelite’s? The original Hebrew mentions nothing about the physical healing of the blind; yet, Luke inserts the phrase or does what you “believe” all that matters? But because you “believe” Luke was “inspired” to add this phrase in and change the word of God, it’s okay? Didn’t God say something about adding to or removing from HIS word.

    I am truly amazed how you don’t see this and take no issue with the blatant corruption.

    #946358
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    But the passage has nothing to do with Jesus; so you believe a lie…understood!

    Me

    ISAIAH WAS THE PROPHET OF THE TRUE GOD AND HE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH “JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS”
    YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME WANTING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF THE CONTRARY, YOU ARE WORKING AGAINST GOD AND BY DOING THIS YOU ARE GOING TO PERDITION.
    BUT THE DOOR OF GRACE IS STILL OPEN…SO REACT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME.

     

    #946359
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Once again you have given nothing to refute or explain why I am wrong. I have explained why you’re wrong and have shown why you’re wrong; and every time you “counter” with cherry picked verses taken out of context. If you cannot substantiate what you believe, why do you believe it?

    Because Jesus claimed Isa 61:1 was about himself, isn’t proof it’s about him; especially when the rest of the chapter is read in context. READ THE ORIGINAL AND SEE IF IT MATCHES YOUR PREFERRED TRANSLATION!

    You: ISAIAH WAS THE PROPHET OF THE TRUE GOD AND HE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH “JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS”

    Me: I read Isaiah speaking more about a “coming age of restoration” than an individual man.

    You: YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME WANTING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF THE CONTRARY

    Me: Why are you here? Aren’t you speaking to convince others your belief is the right one? Does this mean you’re also “wasting your time”?

    You: YOU ARE WORKING AGAINST GOD AND BY DOING THIS YOU ARE GOING TO PERDITION.

    Me: Working against God?!? On the contrary, I’m reading what God said and applying those words as they’re written. Your statement is an excellent example of the church misleading its followers through fear; as you state because I am “working against God”, I am going to “perdition.” When does God ever speak of an eternal place of torment? Remember, God spoke once in the NT and only said “this is my son…”; in the Tanakh HE gave commands and spoke thru the prophets all the time?

    You: THE DOOR OF GRACE IS STILL OPEN

    Me: God’s grace and mercy is open all the time and all you need to do is turn to HIM; you don’t need a middleman AND God definitely doesn’t need a “helper”! He’s God! He is the one who set the universe in motion and created everything, but needs a helper when it comes to sin?!?! Ez 33:11 “Say to them: As I live – the utterance of the Lord God – I surely do not desire the death of the wicked person. I do not desire that outcome; rather, I wish for the repentance of the wicked person from his way, that he live. Repent, repent your evil ways. Why should you die, house of Israel? The path of sin is not predetermined by fate. Each person is free to change his ways. Man himself bears responsibility at all times for rejecting evil and choosing good. While this passage is directed at Israel specifically, God speaks often about repenting and turning from wickedness; nothing about believing in a man for salvation.

    You: REACT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME

    Me: Already have; have you turn to God alone or do you have idols that are between you and God?

    #946360
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Your view is very refreshing I must say, and I have most certainly over the years changed my position on things when presented with passages and then being mindful of the sum of all scriptures. When interpretations don’t cause contradictions but rather make things make more sense, to me that identifies what is true.

    1 John 4:2, glad you brought that one up, haven’t discussed that one for awhile.

    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    They key hear is the word “come”! He had “come” upon having been sent and so it is then crucial to hold the right context of these words, “come in the flesh”, through knowing WHEN he was sent.

    Jesus said, “the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted…” and  “for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    We also read,

    Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Jesus did not come until after John the Baptist was preaching which directly aligns with when Jesus himself declared that he was sent. This is clear but it’s ignored by so many people and then they turn and teach what is directly a contradiction through false interpretations of other passages, (will speak to those in a moment).

    Jesus was a human being, a man of the flesh and he became the Christ when he was anointed of the Spirit at the river Jordan and God then sent him out into the world. Such is then why we read “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”. This is being declared because people were saying he had come as otherwise, so it needed to be stated that he was none other than a man of flesh.

    But some say, the sending was God having sent His Son down to earth where he was made into flesh.

    But the text doesn’t say a pre-existing Son of God has come in the flesh, it says “Jesus” a human given the name Jesus and it says “Christ” one who God did anoint (Chrio) making him into the anointed (Christos). We are directly being given the understanding that in Jesus being anointed, this did not change what kind of being he was. A man walking on water or performing other miracles, one might conclude he’s some sort of supernatural “spirit being”, I could definitely see with man’s imagination all sorts of theories were circling about, but NO, he was none other than flesh. 

    Some say Jesus is a hybrid, some one of a kind being, fully God and yet also fully man, or a fully spirit Son and yet also fully man, no scripture teaches this, we are given the opposite, we are told that he is a human and upon his anointing he was still flesh.

    Jesus upon being anointed and sent taught that he came down from heaven which is to say that he came directly to us down from God. God and heaven are used interchangeably, kingdom of heaven is God’s promised kingdom on earth and why it’s also called kingdom of God. Why “heavenly” mean’s the same thing as “godly”. Jesus is not saying that he literally came down from heaven, he most certainly does not teach of himself having existed before and then being changed into flesh.

    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Could Jesus really make that comparison if him being sent was him literally coming down from heaven? Jesus was anointed of the Spirit (without measure) and then was sent out into the world to do God’s work and then others received the Spirit (by measure) and were sent out to do God’s work. They are all, including Jesus, not of the world, they are from heaven/from God.

    Looking forward to discussing this with you further!

    #946361
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny you said……..”Doesn’t this mean that Jesus was already the Christ before coming in the flesh?”

    Danny, no it does not mean Jesus was Christ before his birth on this earth, he simply did not exist before he was born on this earth.   But “YES”, he was already in the plan and Will of God the Father, from the foundations of the earth, and at the right time the FATHER BROUGHT HIM FORTH, INTO HIS  “ONLY”, true existence, and “ANOINTED” him with his “HOLY SPIRIT”.  

    Danny, listen to JODI, she is telling it right, brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny……….gene

    #946362
    Berean
    Participant

    @Gene

    Concerning the pre-existence of Christ, I assure you that you are telling a big lie.
    And I hope DD never swallows this snake that constantly appears on this thread.

    #946372
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You can’t assure anything, you can’t even acknowledge the clear simple truth that God promised that He WAS GOING TO BECOME a Father unto a seed of David.

    You go about interpreting passages making this word of God into a lie saying the opposite, not that a man of flesh (a seed of David) became a Son but rather you teach that an existing Son became flesh. 

    Further you dance around the clear biblical truth that it was a Son of Man that ascended to sit at God’s right hand and it is a Son of Man that is returning (in our Father’s glory-God’s Spirit aboding in him) to fulfill God’s purpose for why He had created all things in the first place—Jesus becoming a firstborn (of the Spirit) of many and becoming a king overall the earth. 

    Let’s now extend further upon what I just said and continue with the clear given truth you sweep under the rug.

    Both Romans 8 and 1 John 3, tell us the image of the Son and that we are to be as he is, that image is clearly defined as one who is led by the Spirit, one who has God’s Spirit as a witness to his own spirit that he indeed is a child of God, one who has been born of God and thus is righteous, for the fruit of the Spirit aboding in you causes righteousness.

    Now add this to the clear truth presented earlier, it is a Son of Man that had been exalted to God’s right hand upon having received the “PROMISED SPIRIT”/”Today I have begotten you”. 

    If that wasn’t enough clear proof, even Jesus himself says that we will be baptized with the baptism he received and we will drink of the cup that he drinks of but to sit at his right or left in the kingdom is up to the Father. Jesus also said that a man, which he declared himself to be, must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Jesus is a man, we are directly told had received the Spirit and we are told that he was exalted to God’s right hand. Jesus’s words concerning himself made true. 

    Now let’s extend this even further, all of this was declared by God before the world existed, a man being made into a Son of God, a man being anointed of the Spirit to fulfill God’s covenant, a man who would die for the sins of the world and bring forth judgment unto the reward of giving the promised Spirit and eternal life.  From the beginning God’s word was of the savior Jesus Christ and him becoming a righteous judge (through God’s promised Spirit) and an eternal king. Such is a great glory that was of God for this man before the world was, a truth that Jesus himself of course knew and it was no doubt his faith in this word of God that took him to the cross. By such all things that YHVH our Father created, as He said “by Himself” “alone” He created by reason of and for “JESUS CHRIST” -the ANOINTED MAN, the man that BECAME a SON of GOD and is to be a firstborn of many.

    What do you go and do with all this clear given truth, you go and ignore it and go about interpreting scripture without it.

    What I see is you deny the Spirit, God’s Spirit in a man is not good enough for you. This truth is apparently just too simple for you, you’ve got to fancy it up with the imaginations of men, making Jesus into the likes of a pagan god.

    What I am saying,  The WORD is the PROMISE of our Creator’s Spirit dwelling in the man Jesus, which therein is a promise unto us also. YHVH our Father Creating all things by reason of and for this!!!!!!!….His Spirit that can dwell in man and bear the fruit of all goodness, righteousness and truth therein giving eternal life.

    What you would say is, oh no, nope, the real truth is that Jesus pre-existed as “the Word” as in, we must believe that it was by his voice heaven and earth were created and that Jesus was creating all things for himself.

    Quite the difference that is for sure!

     

     

     

    #946373
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: You can’t assure anything, you can’t even acknowledge the clear simple truth that God promised that He WAS GOING TO BECOME a Father unto a seed of David.

    Me: Where did God say HE was going to become a father unto the seed of David? What verse are you citing?

    #946374
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Why do you deny the divinity and therefore the pre-existence of Jesus which is clearly shown in the Bible. This is what I can’t understand.
    And you say you have the Spirit,…but what spirit?
    I pray that someone wiser than me guides you into this truth which I believe escapes you for the moment.
    With hope in my heart.

     

    #946376
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..You are absolutely right,  anyone with the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD DWELLING IN THEM , should clearly see that.

    All those who have made Jesus into their GOD, and worship him as their God, are liars, and are committing “IDOLATRY “, and Will parish, unless they repent. They preach Jesus as  a “DEVINE PREEXISTING” being  as a God and are worshiping a man as their God,  exactly as 2Ths 2 says they would.  That man of sin, mentioned there is the “FALSE” “IMAGE”,  OF JESUS, which they (false teachers) , were predicted to create.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi…….gene

    #946377
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    All those who have made Jesus into their GOD, and worship him as their God, are liars – – TRUTH!!

    and are committing “IDOLATRY ” – – YES!! BY NOT WORSHIPING GOD ALONE!!

    Will parish, unless they repent – – MOST LIKELY NOT WITH THE SAME UNDERSTANDING, BUT THE BASIC PREMISE, YES!!

    They preach Jesus as a “DIVINE PREEXISTING” being as a God – – MORE TRUTH!!

    worshiping a man as their God – – EVEN TEACHING THE GOD OF THE OT?!?!

     

    Funny Gene how much we actually agree; explain the point/reason for having to “accept” the man Jesus or why one must go through a man to get to God?

    #946378
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Yes , but you disagree with him being the true “Messiah”  something I know he was and is.  I believe exactly what Paul said,…….> “but unto us,  (true believers) , there is but “ONE” God, and one mediator, between  God and men, the “MAN” JESUS CHRIST.”

    And Jesus himself said , …..>“Father that they might come to know you,” THE ONLY”  true GOD,  and Jesus “the anointed one”, who you have sent”.

    DT, IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE THESE WORDS OF Paul and Jesus, then you are rejecting  truth .  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    #946379
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Where did God say HE was going to become a father unto the seed of David? What verse are you citing?

    ME: Below speaks to the Messiah, he is begotten by God becoming a Son, he is a king inheriting the earth for his possession and he destroys the wicked. Blessed are them who trust in the Son.

    Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. 4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. 2: 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    Below speaks to the Messiah, a child is born, a son is given, sitting on David’s throne, the increase of his government and peace there will be no end,

    Isaiah 9: 2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty “El” (god-like one, mighty one/mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    Apply those passages to,

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Now let’s look at the passage I often speak to, where first you have a son of David and God promises to make him into His Son. This promise given to David did not only concern Solomon but the Messiah to an even fuller extent.

    1 Chronicles 17: 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom forever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    When we apply OT passages with OT passages we can clearly see that I Chronicles 17 does speak to the promised Messiah.

    I have more to say about this in a future post.

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