John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,641 through 25,660 (of 25,988 total)
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  • #946408
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    In nothing you responded with have you supported why you believe what you believe. You have asked no questions, but accuse me of creating “new religious thoughts”; yet these “new thoughts” are anything but new.

    You need to look up “gandy dancer”, don’t think it means what you think it does. I can assure you I don’t work on laying railroads.

    What makes Jesus the Messiah? What would you tell someone who asks you why Jesus is the Messiah?

    #946410
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer and All,

    Adam was NOT created perfect, if he was, than he would not be able to sin!

    Yes, Adam chose his own way and Jesus chose God’s way, but HOW was Jesus able to walk in all of God’s ways and follow God’s will and not his own? 

    The answer is not because he pre-existed perfect and then came down from heaven being transformed into some sort of perfect hybrid one of a kind being to whom could then die for our sins.

    The answer is because Jesus had been called to righteousness, just as God had promised unto a Son of Man.

    John 1:51 And he saith unto him,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    What had been promised unto a Son of Man?

    1 Chronicles 17, that God would take a son of Man (a son of David) and make him into His own Son AND settle him into His Kingdom.

    What did Jesus, the Son of Man preach?

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GodExcept a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    What happened to the man Jesus?

    15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Jesus was born of water and of the Spirit and he is most certainly a man that entered into God’s eternal kingdom. This Son of Man sits right now at God’s right hand.

    What did Jesus also preach,

    39…Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

    What did Jesus also preach,

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have FOLLOWED ME, in the regeneration (NEW BIRTH) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest

    We are to be made into the image of the Son, that image is clearly given to us, it is one where you are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD. God was in Jesus, the Spirit of God came to abode in him and it’s fruit is in ALL GOODNESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH. The people beheld the glory of him who was FULL of TRUTH, the one who had been FILLED with the Spirit not by measure to speak God’s TRUTH.

    You have to be completely blind to not accept that the bible clearly teaches that these all represent THE SAME THING, born of the Spirit is the same as being born of God, which means God’s Spirit has come to abode in you. We are to follow Jesus in the NEW BIRTH, we are to receive his same baptism, we are to drink of the same cup that he drinks of, drink of the ONE SPIRIT. 

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    By one man, Jesus Christ (ANOINTED OF THE SPIRIT/THE SPIRIT ABODING IN HIM, THE SPIRIT BEGOTTEN IN HIM)

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Proclaimer, why would our heavenly Father forgive the sins of the world through ONE MAN? BECAUSE that one man is an example of what our Father’s Spirit can accomplish in all men, for the fruit of the Spirit truly is in all goodness righteousness and truth. 

    The Spirit in Jesus bore witness to Jesus’s spirit that he was a Son of God. The miracles he performed, the words of truth that he spoke, caused people to believe  the glory of God was dwelling in him, he could do nothing of himself. Jesus had been begotten of the Spirit not by measure filled with the Spirit giving him grace and truth. He was sent out into the world being fully LED by the Spirit of God that was dwelling in him, he was born of the Spirit and by such he is the image of the Son. Jesus Christ did not come of his own, God sent him, thus he came down directly to us from heaven/from God. 

    This is the GOSPEL! We are justified because Jesus is the example of what YHVH’s Spirit can accomplish in all men. Believe that God came to abode in Jesus of Nazareth and by such we are then promised to also have God in us, God’s Spirit being born in us.

    All you people do is deny the Spirit and by such you deny the Father and His Son. You deny that the son of David, Jesus, was indeed made into a Son of God just as was promised. You deny that this man was indeed baptized, you deny that this man was indeed called to righteousness, you deny that this man indeed was born of God’s Spirit/ having God aboding in him.

    #946411
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    judah

    #946412
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Adam was NOT created perfect, if he was, than he would not be able to sin!

    Me

    Fake
    Adam was created perfect and perfectible thanks to the intelligence and free choice that God gave him, not to mention his physical faculties.

    you

    The answer is not because he pre-existed perfect and then came down from heaven being transformed into some sort of perfect hybrid one of a kind being to whom could then die for our sins.

    me

    Nobody preaches that here anyway…
    It’s a view of your distorted mind that makes you say this and shows how misguided you are.

     

    There’s no point going any further, it’s a waste of time.

    #946413
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: you say the book of Plams was a book written “to” David , instead of DAVID writing it.

    Me: For those unaware, this is a reference to Psalm 110 and NOT the entire book of Psalms; a book said to be written by multiple authors and not David alone.

    For your viewing pleasure Gene:

    Screenshot from 2024-04-30 16-34-36

    Riddle me Gene, what does the Hebrew say? Of David a Psalm; what it doesn’t say is “A Psalm of David”. Another translation says “A Psalm for David” or “Regarding David, a Psalm.” Even the NIV got this right and accurately translates the Hewbrew to “Of David a Psalm”; but I’m making stuff up. NO, I’m reading what’s there, are you?!?

    Take the Hebrew and put it into a translator: לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה ׀ לאדני שב לימיני עד־אשית איביך הדם לרגליך׃

    and we get: “To David, Psalm of Jehovah’s speech, to my lord, sit on my right until the fire of your blood, at your feet”

    If you are going to say I am wrong, please back it up with proof. Again, word studies are your friend and help to illuminate the unkown.

    #946414
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: them (then) you say it was saying the David would not suffer the corruption of his body in the grave

    Me: That isn’t what you said was it? Going back to post #946389 what you actually said was: “AND WHAT ABOUT THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY God would not leave his soul in hell to see corruption?”

    Seems you changed your wording to “grave” from “hell” I said the Hebrew is Sheol which means grave and was confirmed by referring to Strong’s. Are hell and the grave the same place? Not according to Christianity. Then I said the word translated as “corruption” really means “pit” and according to Strong’s, the “pit of Sheol.”

    Again for your viewing pleasure, taken from biblehub: “Pit of Sheol” Psalm 16:10

    Screenshot from 2024-04-30 23-25-33

    So Gene, it isn’t me “con-screwing” (not sure what word you meant) this, this is me using the references available to study.

    Concerning the “David would not suffer the corruption of his body in the grave”; David isn’t speaking of his body in this passage, but his soul. You really need to read the entire chapter and put verse 10 in context with the rest of it. David is speaking of how God is “his portion in both life and deliverer in death”; yet, Christianity steals one verse out of this and applies it to Jesus.

    #946415
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: tell us how was Israel’s body marred more then anyone else.

    Me: tell me what nationality has been persecuted more than the Israelite nation for just being a descendant of the nation? What nationality suffered the same as the Jewish people did during WWII – think holocaust. What nationality has endured wide spread discrimination everywhere they have lived? Can you explain why, throughout history, the goal of certain religions has been to eradicate the Jewish faith; yet, there has been a “remnant” that has remained to continue and the Jewish faith continues? Martin Luther famously stated in his booklet “The Jew & Their Lies”, “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them.” Luther hated the Jews because they rejected the Jesus and wouldn’t convert to Christianity.

    Yesterday, a young girl is beaten unconscious because she was carrying a Israeli flag, two students said they were Jewish and were punched receiving a broken nose and “injured” jaw, students have been attacked, spit on, and objects thrown at them, passing from one building to the next, another student posting in a forum talks about killing, injuring, and raping Jewish students, and this list goes on. What people have been “marred” more than anyone else? I have to wonder???

    The larger question is why this is primarily happening on campuses around the United States; it won’t be long before this spills into the streets as the semester ends and if you live in the United States, be aware of your surroundings because this is about to go kinetic.

    #946416
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…..I know David did not ‘write” all of the BOOK OF PSALMS,  I have known that for over 50 years now.  But that particular Psalm we’re talking about,  was direct at David’s descendent, why?,  because David’ s  (body ) did see corruption in the pit i.e grave. BUT Jesus , who said he was the “root and offspring of David”,  did not have his (body) see corruption, but was resurrected from the grave before it did. Those were “prophetic” words,  written about King David descendent, Jesus Christ,  the true Messiah of God.

    DT, you and your “NEW SELF”, MANUFACTURED RELIGION,  have become unable to understand that,  as you have with many other scriptures also.

    But, Riddle me this,  why are you wasting your time and ours,  trying to convince us that the New Testament is not relevant, nor agrees with the scriptures written in the Old Testament, and that Paul, Peter, and Jesus , didn’t know what they were saying and meaning, but you somehow do?

    Your “new’, self enlightenment, is you simply throwing out the baby with the wash,  as I have said before.  To bad you can’t  see, to rightly, divide  the word of truth, instead of rejecting them  all,  to fit you own new found religion.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    #946417
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    #946418
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I can ask you the same question of why you’re here; when you peddle your own musings as the only truth. How many times have you told others they are wrong and proceed to explain your religious beliefs as if they are the only truth to be had. Remember you were quite pleased with what I was saying when I first joined; but you never asked what changed or why I now reject Christianity.

    Apparently I’m hitting nerves since you are the fourth person who wants me to leave. Two of you have now said I’m trying to change your beliefs; not even close. You must see what you don’t want to see before you will change. I have asked many questions none of you have been able to answer and that tells me you are attached to your belief system and it is more important to you. If the NT is the word of God, how can any argue or debate what it says? There shouldn’t be one confusing word within it’s pages; yet, scholars can’t even agree with what is written. Explain why the NT is called the “inspired Word of God” when the quotes used in the NT from the Tanakh aren’t the same. Did the “spirit of God” have a lapse of memory? I gave you a list of qualifications the Messiah is to accomplish, with references, and you ignored it. The only thing I can surmise is you know Jesus only fulfilled one, he was Jewish. You won’t touch with a ten foot pole how Jesus is in the line of David and Solomon when his father was the spirit of God and the book of Numbers tells us the men are to be counted with their father’s tribe. But you have your “I Believe Button” that you smash on a daily basis to remain right with your religion.

    The questions I have asked unfortunately cannot be answered by Christianity; that would require one to verify what is being taught and we can’t have that, that’s to much work. You can continue to accuse me of creating something new, but it’s actually old and has been around at least twice as long as “Christianity.”

    Ask yourself what is Noahide, then go discover it or not; your choice.

     

    PS

    The entire chapter Ps 16 is David speaking of his soul and somehow you come away with the physical body. How do you not see this??? Are you this stuck on verse 10 having to be about Jesus you can’t see what is literally being said?

    #946419
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……RIDDLE  ME THIS  “O” WISE ONE…….Gen 2:2…..> “And the LORD God formed man “OF” the dust of the “GROUND”   and breathe into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a “living soul “.   That is exactly what a “man” is,  nothing more and nothing less.  A-Man is not a “soul” without a “living body”.

    Jesus the MESSIAH said,  …….> don’t fear them that can destroy the body and after that can do nothing else, but fear him (the LORD God), that can destroy “BOTH”, the body and soul, where?,  IN HELL, ( grave).  yes if God does not resurrect your “BODY” you are dead , FOREVER”. YES, HE CAN SIMPLY LEAVE YOU IN THE GRAVE AND YOU ARE GONE FOREVER, you will exist no more, as a “living Soul”.

    Jesus the Messiah said , “you “MUST” BE BORN AGAIN”.   why? because in order for you to live again after death, you have to have another “physical” body that’s why. He also said every hair on you head is numbered , meaning their DNA is preserved, why ? For future regeneration.

     And again scripture says…….> ” now if the spirit of him that raised Jesus from the “dead”(spirit of God).   dwell in you, he who raised Christ from the dead, shall also quicken your “mortal”(dead),  “BODY” , by the same  SPIRIT  that dwells in you. (If you have it in you that is).

    Seems the actual scriptures disagree with you again,  “O” WISE ONE!

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

    #946420
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Adam and Eve were ignorant, they lacked considerable wisdom, understanding, knowledge and fear of YHVH, ALL THINGS to which the man Jesus had been filled with. 

    A human being, Jesus, had God’s grace upon him growing in wisdom from his childhood and then at the river Jordan when he was a man, he was then born of the Spirit of God without measure.

    Jesus taught that he was a Son of Man, that he could do nothing of himself and all that he did was BECAUSE GOD WAS IN HIM. God aboding in him is the same thing as him having been born of the Spirit, him becoming God’s Son. Further, Jesus didn’t send himself out into the world, God did. With God sending him and God dwelling in him for the purpose that he do all of God’s works performing all of God’s will, such is exactly why Jesus said that he came down from heaven and that seeing him was seeing God.

    Prophecy of the coming Messiah was that he would be a man called by YHVH to righteousness TO FULFILL GOD’S COVENANT AND BE FOR A LIGHT, a glory that was of God for this man before the world began.

    Prophecy of the coming Messiah was that he would be a man filled with the Spirit of YHVH and would fulfill all of YHVH’s will, including ruling the world in peace and righteousness, a glory that was of God for this man before the world began. 

    To be RIGHTEOUS IS TO BE BORN OF GOD, where the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.  

    Berean, if Jesus is the Messiah then he had to be the man to whom God called to righteousness as such was God’s WORD. We are directly given that being righteous is to have been born of God, born of the Spirit. 

    Prophecy of the eternal king was that he would be a man to whom God would make into His Son and would settle him into His kingdom, a glory that was of God for this man before the world was.

    Jesus was a Son of God because he had been born of the Spirit of God, such is a calling to righteousness as to be righteous is to be born of God.

    Prophecy was that a man would be exalted to God’s right hand, which was a glory that was of God for this man before the world was. 

    Prophecy is that a Son of Man is returning in God’s glory to fulfill God’s will. As we are given, he has God’s Spirit aboding in him where by such he is a righteous judge and ruler overall the earth.  He is righteous because he has been born of God, born of God’s Spirit, such is the Son of Man Jesus returning in the glory of our Father. 

    #946421
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Adam and Eve were ignorant, they lacked considerable wisdom, understanding, knowledge and fear of YHVH, ALL THINGS to which the man Jesus had been filled with.

    Me

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    [29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    Chap. 2

    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    [8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

    [15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    19] And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
    [20] And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;

    Rom.3:[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Because of sin, humanity fell short of the glory of God, which means that our first parents, Adam and Eve, before their sin, were not short of the glory of God.

    They were in the image and likeness of God

    The garment that covered them was “the glory of God.” This nakedness of which they were not ashamed (Gen.2:25)

    Could it be that they are ignorant as you say?

    I doubt

    What I believe is that they were bathed in happiness and that they were not stupid.
    Adam still named all the animals! (Gen.2:19,20)

    🙏

    #946423
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    With all the chords that are being struck right now, it’s like a symphony is playing.

    Just stop with the vitriol and answer how Jesus is the “messiah” when, according to Numbers 1:2 “all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of the names, every male, one by one;” The men, according to God, are to be numbered with their fathers’ house/tribe. Jesus wasn’t conceived of the seed of man, but of the spirit. So how can Jesus be of any tribe of Israel when his “biological” father isn’t from a tribe of Israel?

    Jesus’ claim of messiahship is the foundation of Christianity; but, if Jesus’ biological ancestry isn’t of the tribe of Judah, how can he be the Messiah? This is the only question that matters and demands a truthful answer.

    When quoting Rev 22:16 and using that as your proof of Jesus being a descendant of David creates a problem with the books of Matthew and Luke. Someone’s not telling the truth.

    #946425
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Yes, scripture tells us that man was created in God’s image, what does that mean though? How was man created in the image of God?

    My point still stands, Adam and Eve were ignorant, is that what you would consider to be the image of our God? 

    Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit BECAUSE they DESIRED TO BE WISE, even they at least knew that they were not created in the image of God as it pertains to His Wisdom, His Understanding, His Council and Might, His Knowledge.

    Adam and Eve were capable of sin, is that what you would consider also to be the image of our God? Is our God capable of sin also?

    Were Adam and Eve created having life in themselves as God has life in Himself or were Adam and Eve’s lives at the mercy of God?

    Of all the living souls that God had created, only man was said to have been made in God’s image. How is man unlike all the other living souls that God had created but is like God, to where we are told that man had been created in God’s image?

    I also have another question for you Berean.

    We are to be made in the image of the Son, so why did God not just make us as He did the Son, right after He had made the Son?  

     

    #946426
    T3
    Participant

    @DesireTruth:

    Given the supernatural circumstances of Jesus’ birth, how can He be considered to be of the tribe of Judah and therefore qualify to be the Messiah?  Consider the following facts:

    • The passage from Numbers would be important only when a child’s father was from one tribe (e.g., Benjamin), and the mother was from another (e.g., Simeon).  The provision to “number” through the father’s lineage was simply a clean, simple way to settle any potential confusion / disagreement.  Because if both mother and father were from the same tribe, then this provision from Numbers is effectively a moot point.
    • Whereas Matthew’s genealogy traces back to David through Solomon, Luke’s traces back to David through Nathan.  Why the difference?  Because while Matthew is giving Joseph’s lineage, Luke is tracing the lineage of Mary’s father, who also happens to be of the “line of David” and therefore the “tribe of Judah”.  Thus, even apart from Joseph’s “biological input”, so to speak, Jesus would still be technically “qualified” to be the Messiah simply by virtue of His mother’s (i.e. grandfather’s) family line.  Put differently, the Numbers provision about the father makes no difference in Jesus’ case…hence Joseph’s lack of involvement in the process is effectively irrelevant in determining Jesus’ earthly tribal membership.  Now if Mary were from the tribe of Simeon, for instance, I would concede that you have a point.
    • Aside from the point about Mary’s line being sufficient to support Jesus’ own earthly lineage, it is important to note that–technically–Jesus would have been Joseph’s adopted son.  As such, by virtue of Jewish law / custom, Jesus would have been regarded as Joseph’s own son with all the rights and privileges of a biological son.  Think about this in relation to our own status as “children of God” who have become fellow heirs with Christ. Even though we once had no part in Him, God now regards us as one of His own; for whereas Jesus is the “natural” Son, we are sons / daughters by adoption.

    So taking these points into consideration, it seems clear that the legitimacy of Jesus’ claim to be a son of David / of the line of Judah is not in jeopardy simply because of His miraculous birth.

    #946427
    T3
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer.  Apologies if I’ve already posted this link in this forum before, but here’s my take on the whole Logos question:  The Word of God

     

     

    #946428
    T3
    Participant

    A few years back, I decided to publish my 25 years of research / musings on this doctrine, “Testing the Trinity”.  It is available through most on-line booksellers in either paperback or e-book format, but I also published the full book on-line and free of charge here.

    About 2/3 of the book is dedicated to exposing the house of cards that is the Trinity, and the rest explores an alternative paradigm that I believe stays true to revealed Scripture without relying on extra-Biblical ideas (like the Trinity does) to “fill in the blanks”, so to speak.  There are still some challenging passages to wrestle with, for sure, but not nearly as many as the Trinity has to dance around to maintain its integrity.

    Have a look and let me know what you think!

     

    #946429
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @T3

    You: The passage from Numbers would be important only when a child’s father was from one tribe (e.g., Benjamin), and the mother was from another (e.g., Simeon). The provision to “number” through the father’s lineage was simply a clean, simple way to settle any potential confusion / disagreement. Because if both mother and father were from the same tribe, then this provision from Numbers is effectively a moot point.

    Me: Actually the point of Numbers chapter 1 was to take a census of the men of fighting age; nothing “moot” about what God told Moses to do. The fact is, the men were to be counted through their father’s house/tribe; a practice that is still done today. I didn’t pick up anything about tribal lineage being thru the mother; did you?

    You: Matthew’s genealogy traces back to David through Solomon, Luke’s traces back to David through Nathan.

    Me: And Matthew puts Jechoniah in this lineage, a king God said was to be remember as childless; therefore no descendants of his would be king of Judah and the kingship thru Jechoniah ended with him. The writer of Matthew made a huge mistake. Now running the lineage thru Mary back to Nathan is another dead end because it was God who said David’s throne was to be established thru Solomon. How does no one see this?!?!

    You: Joseph’s lack of involvement in the process is irrelevant in determining Jesus’ earthly tribal membership.

    Me: Joseph’s “lack of involvement” is irrelevant?!?! Not according to God; HE’s the one who said HE would raise up a seed after David. This is biological, not that HE would impregnate an earthly woman – sounds eerily similar to what Greek and Roman gods did to mortal women to create demigods; is Jesus a demigod? By definition, YES! Isn’t it funny how people think it’s ridiculous of the Greek and Romans to have their gods impregnate a mortal woman; but when it comes to Jesus how dare you not accept it as happening.

    You: Jesus would have been Joseph’s adopted son, and by Jewish law / custom would therefore have been regarded as Joseph’s own son with all the rights and privileges of a biological son.

    Me: Absolutely, 100% agree!! As one who was adopted, I was treated as though my parents conceived me, but can I say I’m biologically my fathers child? The answer is no. Anyways, there is a big however in your statement. According to Jewish law, the child is hereditarily tied to his (or her) biological parents. If the male child’s biological father is a Levite, by Jewish tradition, and the child must also accept the priestly customs. In the case of Jesus, his father is the “spirit of God” and since God doesn’t belong to any tribe of Israel, which tribe can Jesus claim? Another issue is created when Jesus claims in Rev 22:16 of being the “root and offspring of David”; his biological father isn’t in the line of David.

    You: though we once had no part in Him, God regards us as one of His own

    Me: Are we not created by God in HIS image? So why do you believe God wants nothing to do with HIS creation unless you have the Jesus? Abraham didn’t have Jesus, but was a friend of God. Moses didn’t have Jesus, yet spoke directly with HIM. David, even in all his failures, was righteous before God. What made these men and everyone else in the Tanakh different/special and why today do we need “someone” to come before God?

    When you say “we once had no part in Him” is a false teaching; we’ve always been able to come before God. You need to read the book of Jonah and when you get to the end, pay special attention to the last two verses. It is everything you need to know about the love God has for his creation. God doesn’t love you because of Jesus; HE loves you because he created you and when man places anything between themselves and HIM, it’s man who severs this connection, not God.

    #946430
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Yes, scripture tells us that man was created in God’s image, what does that mean though? How was man created in the image of God?

    me

    scriptures

    And God said, Let us 👈make man👉 in our image👈, after our likeness:👈

    and

    let them have DOMINION over👉 the fish of the sea, and over👉 the fowl of the air, and 👉over the cattle, and 👉over all the earth, and 👉over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    👉dominion

    7287

    radah

    a primitive root; to tread down, i.e. subjugate; specifically, to crumble off:–(come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule,(-r, over), take.

    Me

    Is there not in the meaning of having dominion over the animal world for Adam an element of the fact that he was created in the image of God and in his likeness?

    God would dominate his creation, Yes but through Adam...
    Isn’t there an aspect of the “image of God”?

    Thank you for responding on this specific point.

    🙏

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