John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,581 through 25,600 (of 25,990 total)
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  • #946321
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU: Our salvation from sin is only possible because of the precious blood of Jesus Christ that was lovingly shed for all mankind!
    (Ephesians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Revelation 1:5)

    ME: There is really A LOT more to it than that but it is all held when in those passages you provided we focus on CHRIST- anointed of the Spirit.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification (purification) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    How was it that Jesus was obedient?

    Danny, do you believe that Jesus was called to righteousness just as was prophesied by Isaiah, where first there is a man and then God gives his Spirit to abode in him where he is said to be called to righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant?

    Do you believe that the fruit of the Spirit is truly in all goodness, righteousness and truth and that this Spirit did indeed come to abode in Jesus without measure at the river Jordan?

     

    #946322
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi to all

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    If Christ did not pre-exist before the incarnation, how did the people before the incarnation (Adam and Eve, the prophets, the patriarchs, and just about anyone before Jesus’ birth) who were all considered as saints and communicated with God in some way? or another, were able to do so, when John 14:6 clearly states that no one can come to the Father (God) except through Jesus Christ?

    #946323
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: At this point, as you continue to show your unbelief and want to debate to that unbelief I believe you really should be moving to the Skeptics forum and look to discuss this over there.

    Me: So my “unbelief” is not believing the same as you or no longer believing in christianity?!? This “unbelief” in Jesus being the messiah is founded in the fact he doesn’t fulfill the requirement God said and now I’m a “skeptic”?!?! Still waiting for how Jesus, a product of the spirit, can be the messiah when he isn’t of the biological descendant (seed) of David and Solomon as God said he would be.

     

    You: I know that we have unfinished business but I am not going to continue debating with you on this thread.

    Me: Were would you like to continue?

    What I’ve discovered being here is it’s religions fighting over who’s right and who’s wrong concerning this “inspired word of God” (quite the oxymoron when one thinks about it); never once has there been an actual discussion of the words spoken by God, only learned responses of man’s individual religious understanding.

    One of the first passages that sent me down my current path is Isa 7:14 and we’re told it’s a prophesy pointing to Jesus; then I read the entire chapter and nowhere is there any mention of a “messiah” or this centuries later birth of a child that will save mankind. Yet every year at Christmas this single verse is quoted claiming it’s about Jesus’ birth and it’s a lie. Why doesn’t anyone see the error or more accurately, why is this error ignored and the lie perpetuated? The answer is simple, no one sees the error because no one has read it.

    Once you see it, you can’t unsee it…

    #946324
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Rely to post 946305

    Read Isa 61:1 and Luke 4:18 passages in parallel and please tell me what Jesus was reading. It appears Jesus changed/added to the Isaiah passage by putting in “And recovery of sight to the blind,”

    Who’s the “me” speaking in the Isaiah passage?

    Where did that come from?!?

    #946325
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    Ησαΐας (Isaiah) 61:1 :: Septuagint (LXX)
    Isaiah 61:1 –

    πνεῦμα κυρίου ἐπ᾽ ἐμέ οὗ εἵνεκεν ἔχρισέν με εὐαγγελίσασθαι πτωχοῖς ἀπέσταλκέν με ἰάσασθαι τοὺς συντετριμμένους τῇ καρδίᾳ κηρύξαι αἰχμαλώτοις ἄφεσιν καὶ τυφλοῖς ἀνάβλεψιν

     

    Spirit of the Lord upon me, who has anointed me, evangelize the poor, send me to save the brokenhearted, preach forgiveness to the captives, and recovery to the blind.

     

    It is believed that the text cited in Luke 4 corresponds to the text of the Greek Bible.

    for more informations

    👇

    Jésus lisait-Il la Septante ?

    #946326
    Berean
    Participant

    ◄ Isaiah 61 ►
    Brenton’s Septuagint Translation

    The Year of the LORD’s Favor

    1The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind;

    #946332
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Nice try; HOWEVER, wasn’t it you who stated the Septuagint was a corrupt translation?!?! Since you believe the only true translation is the King James, why are you using the Septuagint in this particular situation? Explain why the Septuagint is the only translation that uses this language in Isaiah? Even the translators of the King James went to the original Hebrew and not the Greek when they compiled the “Old Testament” and didn’t include the phrase “recovery of sight to the blind” in Isaiah, but do in Luke. Sounds like you are using the Septuagint as a matter of convenience to explain away a corruption. Shame on you!

    Also, the original Septuagint was only the first five books of the OT and was translated mid third century BC and is “believed” the rest of the books of the OT where done in the second century BC, as only fragments of other books have been recovered. HOWEVER, the earliest complete manuscript of the Septuagint is from the fourth century AD. You must also remember the common language of the first century in that region was Aramaic and the language spoken in the temple would NOT have been Greek, but Hebrew; God’s language. The manuscripts they would have been reading from would have also been Hebrew and NOT Greek.

    The corruption is in front of you, but you don’t see it; when it’s pointed out, you double down on the corruption claiming it to be truth. GO VERIFY IT!!!!!!

    #946334
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    I believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of YHWH.

    At this time I need to take a break.

    My real name is Devis Awaleh.
    Danny Dabbs is a fictitious name.
    Please pray for me because the Devil and his minions hate me.

    #946335
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Concerning your post regarding verse 6 of the below,

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    The context is speaking to entering into the Father’s house and Jesus’s return. Jesus is returning and will judge the world and give reward, he will give the Father’s Spirit of righteousness and eternal life to abode (be begotten) in you where you are coming unto the Father entering into His house, His kingdom.

    Berean, don’t forget the promise of 1 Chronicles 17, a son of David God is going to become a Father unto him where He will settle him into His house and His kingdom giving him an eternal throne. We see indeed that the Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand and was settled into His kingdom.

    How long are you going to pretend that having the Spirit of God come to abode in you is not the same thing as being born of the Spirit of God and thus is having been begotten by God? You assert a doctrine from connecting false interpretations together where it all leads you to be totally blind to the clear truth laid directly in front of you.

    The clear given truth is a promise that God was going to become a Father unto a man and would settle him into His kingdom. Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom, he was speaking of himself and all men. Jesus said where I am you may also be and he had been raised receiving the “promised Spirit”  “on this day I have begotten you”. 

    Jesus had prior received the Spirit to abode in and remain upon him at the river Jordan and the fruit of that Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth. He received the Spirit without measure to be sent out to preach God’s word and that which he preached was that we would receive the baptism he received and we would drink of the cup that he drinks of, but to sit on his right or left in the kingdom is for the Father to decide.

    Believe in the clearly given truth, the Spirit descended coming to abode and remain upon Jesus and the Spirit causes righteousness, prophecy fulfilled that a man would be called to righteousness for to fulfill God’s covenant. 

    1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest,

    The Son of God was manifested,  Chronicles 17 fulfilled, a son of David became God’s Son through being born of God, born of His Spirit which causes all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and TRUTH. The people beheld his glory as the only begotten of the Father filled with grace and TRUTH, which was in fact God’s WORD spoken by Isaiah and was God’s WORD from the beginning.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    THE GLORY in this Son of Man, is God’s Spirit in him, which makes him a Son as he is led by that Spirit aboding in him in all of God’s ways, which according to Isaiah 11 he judges the world through the Spirit upon him, not by his own eyes and ears, but through the righteousness that the Spirit causes.

    1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ (the man anointed of the Spirit), a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    Hebrews 9 speaking of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc..

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Christ did not have to pre-exist Berean, God’s WORD of Christ declared from the beginning needed to be fulfilled. Noah and Abraham, etc, needed to have faith in God, faith in His promises which we know God purposed in Jesus Christ, He had made all things by reason of and for him, a firstborn of many brethren.  

    ….39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Berean, Jesus being called “The Word of God” has nothing to do with him pre-existing and speaking creation into existence, the content of Revelation 19 does not speak to this at all, nor does John 1.

    God’s WORD from the beginning was His PROMISED SPIRIT, with His Spirit coming to abode in a man, God making a son of David into His own Son and then anointing him to fulfill His determined purpose, the very reason why He had created all things, by Himself, in the first place. 

    we don’t read in John 1 details about Jesus having created heaven and earth by his mouth, we read of prophecy being fulfilled to which God had declared from the beginning,

    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    Berean, John 1 speaks of prophecy fulfilled in Jesus, he is the promised son of David to whom God became a Father to and promised him to be king. But you speak the opposite of the truth, saying that a Son of God became a man.  God begat Jesus with His Spirit, God’s WORD made true in the flesh, where he was filled with grace and TRUTH. The people beheld his glory as he was sent out for to be a light and was the prophet Moses spoke of, one raised up among his brethren to speak God’s word, where the words that he spoke they were Spirit and they were life and those words were that we must be born of the Spirit also and by such we are able to enter into God’s kingdom.

    A Son of Man became God’s Son and this man was exalted to God’s right hand into His kingdom and this man is returning in the glory of the Father, THAT GLORY IS YHVH’S SPIRIT LIVING IN JESUS, which was YHVH’s determined purpose when He was creating heaven and earth, by Himself, ALONE, with His own hands. Now take this truth and start interpreting all other passages with this knowledge.

    #946336
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I think you misunderstand,

    Believers place according to admin,

    “This category is called Believers Place and is for believers, i.e., those who believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the messiah.”

    “Anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and messiah is a Skeptic.”

    If you go to Skeptics Place you will see a topic on “Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?” and I believe that this would be an appropriate place for you to post.

    You’ve hijacked this thread, it’s to be about “John 1:1, who is the Word?” not about if Jesus is the Messiah.

     

     

    #946337
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

     

    You can say anything about me, but Luke used the septuagint. As for me, I don’t usually read the Septuagint.
    I just pointed out that the septuagint was used by Luke, so that’s all.

     

    #946338
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    The context is speaking to entering into the Father’s house and Jesus’s return.

    Me

    Not from me

    👇

    A Bridge for the Gulf
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6. TMK 82.1

    When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” He uttered a truth of wonderful significance. The transgression of man had separated earth from heaven, and finite man from the infinite God. As an island is separated from a continent, so earth was cut off from heaven, and a wide channel intervened between man and God. Jesus bridged this gulf, and made a way for man to come to God. He who has no spiritual light sees no way, has no hope, and men have originated theories of their own regarding the way to life…. But the only name given among men whereby they can be saved is Jesus. Across the gulf that sin has made come His words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” … TMK 82.2

    Man can be justified alone through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. Man is justified freely by God’s grace through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord…. TMK 82.3

    After the enemy had betrayed Adam and Eve into sin, the connection between heaven and earth was severed, and had it not been for Christ, the way to heaven would never have been known by the fallen race…. Christ is the mystic ladder, the base of which rests upon the earth, and whose topmost round reaches to the throne of the Infinite. The children of Adam are not left desolate and alienated from God, for through Christ’s righteousness we have access unto the Father. TMK 82.4

    “By me,” said Christ, “if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (John 10:9). Let earth be glad, let the inhabitants of the world rejoice, that Christ has bridged the gulf which sin had made, and has bound earth and heaven together. A highway has been cast up for the ransomed of the Lord. The weary and heavy laden may come unto Him and find rest to their souls. The pilgrim may journey toward the mansions that He has gone to prepare for those who love Him.23The Review and Herald, November 11, 1890.

    God bless

    #946340
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: @Carmel,
    Me: I REPEAT WHAT I SAID IN MY POST: 946277 TRUTH HURTS!!!!

    You: You have to present truth first.

    ME: HERE COMES THE PURE TRUTH, AND YOU HAVE TO START

    CHEWING GOD’S SPIRITUAL WORDS AND WORK:

    I TELL YOU, NOTHING OF FLESH AT ALL!

    Genesis 17:1 And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him:

    IF GOD WANTED THAT ABRAM IMPREGNATES SARAI, 

    WHY DID HE WAIT FOR ABRAM TO BE NINETY-NINE, AND NOT BEFORE WHEN HE WAS DEFINITELY FERTILE, THE FACT THAT ABRAM IMPREGNATED HAGAR?

    I am the Almighty God: walk before me,

    THE ABOVE DECLARATION FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, PRECISELY THE ONLY TIME GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF SAID  AND CALLED HIMSELF SO AND MADE CLEAR  TO ABRAM,

    CONFIRMS THAT ABRAM WAS NOT FERTILE ANYMORE, 

    KEEP ON READING MR. DESIRETRUTH, TOTALLY SPIRITUALLY BLIND AND CARNALLY STAGNATED WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    and be perfect.

    READ AGAIN WHAT GOD IN THIS INSTANT SAID TO ABRAM

    I AM GOD ALMIGHTY….

    BE PERFECT!

    JUST CLEAR YOUR CORRUPTED MIND FOR A CHANGE AND SEE THINGS FROM

    GOD’S SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE!

    WHAT HAPPENED TO ABRAM ONCE GOD ALMIGHTY PRONOUNCED THOSE PRECISE WORDS?

    I MEAN:

    BE PERFECT!!!!

    ONLY GOD IS PERFECT AND NO ONE ON THIS PLANET COULD EVER BE PERFECT!

    NOW SINCE YOU WANT THINGS GIVEN TO YOU WITH A SPOON,

    GOD MADE ABRAM PERFECT IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME

    MR. DESIRETRUTH!

    DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?

    NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID SO I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU WITH A SPOON AGAIN:

    GOD MADE ABRAM FERTILE AGAIN,

    AND AT THE SAME TIME, IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN HIS PERFECTION,

    FOR GOD’S UNIQUE WORK OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT IN HIS FIRSTBORN SON ISAAC, MADE IT CLEAR TO ABRAM NOT TO  HAVE SEX AGAIN, WITH ANYONE, NOT EVEN WITH SARAI, NEVER MIND HE IMPREGANTES SARAH, 

    TILL HIS /GOD’S FIRSTBORN SON, ISAAC BE BORN!

    THE FACT THAT ISAAC’S NAME WAS GIVEN BY GOD AND WAS NEVER CHANGED LIKE IN THE CASE OF ABRAM, SARAI, AND JACOB! GOT IT MR. DESIRETRUTH!!! NOW ATTENTION PLEASE: HERE IT COMES MORE  TRUTH AND CHEW

    MR. DESIRETRUTH!

    2And I will make my covenant between me and thee:

    DID YOU GET THAT??? NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID!! READ AGAIN 

    I WILL ……. BETWEEN ME AND YOU: NOW TO THE END OF GOD’S WORDS!!!

    and I will multiply thee exceedingly.

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    IS THERE EVEN A MERE INDICATION OF SEXUAL REFERENCE IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY GOD ALMIGHTY? NOW ATTENTION AGAIN!

    3 Abram fell flat on his face.

    WHY MR. DEIRETRUTH,

    ABRAM FELL FLAT ON HIS FACE!

    HAVE YOU GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS, THAT IF ABRAM AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME WAS IN THE POSITION TO HAVE SEX WOULD HE ALSO FALL FLAT ON HIS FACE?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!!!

    KEEP ON READING AND CHEW:

    4And God said to him:

    I AM,

    and my covenant is with thee,

    and thou shalt be a father. of many nations.

    HERE IT COMES THE PURE TRUTH!

    5Neither shall thy name be called anymore Abram:

    but thou shalt be called Abraham:

    because I HAVE MADE YOU THEE A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS.

    DT, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT  IT’S YOUR PIGEON,

    SATAN BELIEVED THAT HE ANTICIPATED GOD ALMIGHTY, AND MADE ISHMAEL ABRAM’S  ONLY FIRSTBORN, AS IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE HAD SEX WITH THE SATANIC HAGAR HE BECAME INFERTILE!

    GOD ASSERTED ABRAM, AND THE FIRST THING HE SAID TO HIM WAS

    ATTENTION PLEASE

    BE PERFECT!

    PERFECT REGARDING REPRODUCTION,

    BUT NOT AS ABRAM ANYMORE BUT AS

    ABRAHAM FOR GOD’S UNIQUE WORK OF HIS SON JESUS,

    THE ETERNAL LIFE AND THE ETERNAL COVENANT IN ISAAC!

    THE ONLY PATRIARCH THAT MAINTAINED HIS NAME!

    KEEP ON READING PLEASE, ALWAYS THOUGH FROM GOD’S SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE!

    And I will make thee increase, exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations,

    WHAT KIND OF SEED DID GOD REFER TO ABOVE, DON’T TELL ME

    ABRAHAM’S SPERM FOR GOD’S SAKE!! READ WHAT GOD DECLARED:

    by a perpetual covenant:

    to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. 

    NOW READ 

    Matthew 13:37 Who made answer and said to them:

    He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of man. 

    OK MR. DESIRETRUTH!

    ABRAHAM SEED WAS “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, WHO CONCEIVED ABRAM IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB!

    TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY,

    THE FIRST AND THE BEGINNING OF GOD’S WORK!

    John 8: 58 BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN:

    I AM

    MORE TRUTH AND HIDDEN MYSTERIES!

    8And I will give to thee, and to thy seed,

    the land of thy sojournment,

    all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession,

    and I will be their God.

    NOW HERE COMES SOMETHING THAT YOU NEVER BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND

    BLOCKED IN YOUR MIND ONLY IN THE PHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE! 

    MORTAL!!!

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    WHAT IS FROM GOD’S SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE:

    THE LAND OF THY SOJOURNMENT!

    IN THE TRUTH IS????

    DON’T BOTHER TO REPLY:

    I AM NOT FINISHED YET!

     

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946341
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Didn’t realize you controlled and set the tone for this forum of “believers” only; sounds like a country club.

    The discussion of who or what the “word” is in John 1 has been going on in this thread for over 20 years and there is still zero consensus of who/what the “word” really is and if we’re being honest, your religious beliefs are simply another opinion to what John was trying to convey. The centuries old disagreement over the meaning of this passage should the first clue there is something wrong; how can a statement that is “inspired” from God be open to interpretation or needs to be demystified? When God spoke to mankind in the Tanakh it was never shrouded in mysteries; it was plain and easy to understand. If you are puzzled by what God supposedly said, you may need to question whether it came from God or not;

    Anyways, seems you found your out from having to discuss anything with me anymore and is what I figured would eventually happen as christianity cannot answer my questions; if it did, there would be no one left in “christianity”; oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

     

    PS

    Read Hosea 3:4-5 for a glimpse of what God said was to happen in the last days or keep waiting for the Jesus.

    PPS

    You should look into what it means to be Bnai Noach (Noahide).

     

     

    #946342
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You: I just pointed out that the Septuagint was used by Luke, so that’s all.

    Me: Are you okay with a corrupt version being used as truth? The question still remains unanswered, why would Jesus be reading from a Greek translation and not the original Hebrew? This doesn’t cause you pause and question the veracity of what Luke wrote?

    #946343
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: I TELL YOU, NOTHING OF FLESH AT ALL!

    Me: You don’t tell me much of anything except foolishness.

     

    You: IF GOD WANTED THAT ABRAM IMPREGNATES SARAI, WHY DID HE WAIT FOR ABRAM TO BE NINETY-NINE, AND NOT BEFORE WHEN HE WAS DEFINITELY FERTILE, THE FACT THAT ABRAM IMPREGNATED HAGAR?

    Me: This has to be one of the most obtuse statements I have read recently; you really don’t know about reproduction do you, a man continues to produce sperm until the day they die. This is biological fact that is easily found with any simple search. Also, Abraham was 175 years when he died and I would have to safely presume people then aged way differently than today.

     

    You: I am the Almighty God: walk before me,

    THE ABOVE DECLARATION FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, PRECISELY THE ONLY TIME GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF SAID AND CALLED HIMSELF SO AND MADE CLEAR TO ABRAM,

    Me: Except God said it in Gen 35:11 to Jacob and in Ex 6:3 speaking to Moses.

    Concerning the rest of what you wrote, where did you come up with that nonsensical, mish-mash, interpretation of God’s word? Beginning to wonder what this spirit really is you claim you have; seems like a little to much “sticky bush.”

     

    You: WHAT KIND OF SEED DID GOD REFER TO ABOVE, DON’T TELL ME

    ABRAHAM’S SPERM FOR GOD’S SAKE!! READ WHAT GOD DECLARED:

    Me: verse 7 “And I will establish my covenant between me and you, and between your offspring after you, throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant to be as God for you and to your offspring after you.” So what do you think “offspring” means if not through the act of procreation?

     

    You: ABRAHAM SEED WAS “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, WHO CONCEIVED ABRAM IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB!

    Me: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Where did you come up with that!??!?!

     

    You: WHAT IS FROM GOD’S SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE: THE LAND OF THY SOJOURNMENT!

    Me: verse 8 “And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land in which you are living as an alien, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting property. And I will be to them as God.” The land in which Abraham is living; isn’t that what “sojourning” means, the place you live. Stop with the spiritualizing of everything, you’re making yourself look like a fool. God didn’t speak in riddles to the Israelite’s; HE spoke plainly because HE was speaking to man, a species not know for being the brightest bulb.

     

    You: I AM NOT FINISHED YET!

    Me: PLEASE BE!!!

    Haven’t forgotten, still waiting for how Jesus, conceived of the spirit, could possibly be the Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill the simple requirement of being of the seed (biological descendent) of David and Solomon. Or how Jesus’ lineage can go through Jeconiah, who God said was to be remembered as childless. Tic-Tok

    #946344
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    YOU:

    Didn’t realize you controlled and set the tone for this forum of “believers” only; sounds like a country club.

    ME: What are you talking about? You have become extraordinarily sensitive. Take a couple of deep breathes. I am merely asking that you post on an appropriate thread and I also spoke mentioning to everyone else that we should all try to post according to the thread’s topic. Of course topics do bleed together, like in this thread speaking to how it is Jesus is a Son of God. But whether or not Jesus is the Messiah is totally off base. I noticed that Danny started talking about hell and I plan to speak to this and what he said but in it’s own thread, either starting a new one or bumping an old one up.

    DT, I referenced an existing thread on the topic you want to discuss and after my post to you I immediately went to that thread and responded to you. Scroll down on Recent Replies and you will find it. This thread is in Skeptics Place and it’s called “Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?”

     

    #946345
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You:

       Me: I TELL YOU, NOTHING OF FLESH AT ALL!

    You: You don’t tell me much of anything except foolishness.

    ME: I ALREADY MADE CLEAR ABOUT YOUR WISDOM, READ AGAIN WHAT I TOLD YOU IN MY POST 946297

    INSTEAD, YOU OPTED TO PLAY WITH WORDS,

     WHICH PROVES THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN SMELLING THE TRUTH,

    THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AS YOU PROCLAIM YOURSELF YOU ARE

     “DESIRETRUTH”

     

    I NEVER EXPECTED THAT YOU EVER PERCEIVE GOD’S SPIRITUAL WORK AT ALL! MY ONLY INTEREST IS TO USE YOU FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS MORE ENLIGHTENED THAN YOU ARE!

    SCRIPTURE!

    1 Corinthians 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize,

    but to preach the gospel:

    not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.

    18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish,

    is foolishness;

    but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

    19For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject.

    20Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world?

    Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 

    21For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world,

    by wisdom, knew not God, it pleased God,

    by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe. 

    22For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 

    23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock,

    and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

    24 But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks,

    Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

     

    25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men;

    and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    26For see your vocation, brethren,

    that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble:

     27But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen,

    that he may confound the wise;

    and the weak things of the world hath God chosen,

    that he may confound the strong.

     28And the base things of the world, and the things that are contemptible, hath God chosen,

    and things that are not, that he might bring to nought things that are: 

    29 That no flesh should glory in his sight.

    30But of him are you in Christ Jesus,

    who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption:

    31That, as it is written: He that glorieth, may glory in the Lord.

     

    You: This has to be one of the most obtuse statements I have read recently;

    you really don’t know about reproduction do you,

    a man continues to produce sperm until the day they die.

    This is biological fact that is easily found with any simple search.

     

    WHEN WILL YOU LEARN GOD’S WORK???

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD AND HIS SPIRITUAL WORK, 

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/ EXISTENCE TO ALL HIS ENTIRE WORK!

    HUMAN SPERM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD’S REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS AT ALL!

    HE DETERMINES WHO WILL BE

    REPRODUCTIVE OR NOT! 

    Me: THIS HAS TO BE  THE MOST OBTUSE STATEMENTS I READ THROUGHOUT MY EXISTENCE AS A

    “PERFECT MAN” REGARDING REPRODUCTION!

    YOU REALLY DON’T KNOW ABOUT REPRODUCTION DO YOU???????

    NEVER MIND GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK AND WORK READ:

    Isaiah 55:11 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways,

    and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    12For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace:

    the mountains and the hills shall sing praise before you,

    and all the trees of the country shah clap their hands.

    DID YOU EVER HEARD THE ABOVE FOOLISHNESS Mr. DEIRETRUTH????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

     

    13Instead of the shrub,

    shall come up the fir tree,

    and instead of the nettle,

    shall come up the myrtle tree:

    and the Lord shall be named for an everlasting sign,

    that shall not be taken away.

    HOW ABOUT THE ABOVE DID YOU GET IT!

    I AM RUNNING OUT OF SPOONS:

    IS THE ABOVE ALSO FOOLISHNESS Mr. DEIRETRUTH????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

    NOW TO YOUR SPECIFIC WISDOM:

    You: a man continues to produce sperm until the day they die.

    WE ARE DISCUSSING REPRODUCTION IN FULL!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Where did you come up with that NONSENSE!??!?!

    THAT’S ONLY THE PROCESS OF THE REPRODUCTION OF

    THE USELESS HUMAN SPERM!!!! 

    SUBJECT TO GOD’S WORK THROUGHOUT!

    Mr. DESIRETRUTH! HERE I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU WITH ANOTHER SPOON, AND AS I SAID:

     I BETTER GET MORE SPOONS AS I RAN OUT OF THEM!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

    A MAN CAN PRODUCE AS MUCH AS LITERS OF SPERM AS HE IS CAPABLE OF BUT IT IS OF NO USE AT ALL FIRST AND FOREMOST IT HAS TO BE  PERFECTLY FERTILE, AND SECOND  THE MAN MUST NOT SUFFER FROM:

    ED. 

    ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION: MR. DT!

    SUBJECT TO GOD! 

    THE FACT THAT, ANOTHER SPOON FOR YOU, THE LAST ONE I’M AFRAID:

    ABRAHAM,  FELL ON HIS FACE not once but

    TWICE, AND IN THE LAST ONE HE EVEN 

    LAUGHED……

    THE FACT THAT HIS/GOD’S SON WAS NAMED BY GOD!!!!!

    ISAAC!

    Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face:…

    Genesis 17: 17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed,… 

    NOW READ AND LEARN PLEASE:

    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/erectile-dysfunction

    What is erectile dysfunction (ED)?
    Erectile dysfunction is defined as the persistent inability to achieve or maintain penile erection sufficient for satisfactory sexual performance. 

     

    ME: I am the Almighty God: walk before me,

    THE ABOVE DECLARATION FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, PRECISELY THE ONLY TIME GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF SAID AND CALLED HIMSELF SO AND MADE CLEAR TO ABRAM,

    ME: NOW READ IN HOW DESPERATE  YOUR STATE IS WITH YOUR USELESS REASONOINING!

    Me: Except God said it in Gen 35:11 to Jacob and in Ex 6:3 speaking to Moses.

    WHAT’S THAT GOT TO DO WITH WHAT I ASSERTED MR. DESIRETRUTH!

    PLAYING WITH USELESS WORDS!

    YOU ARE A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

    You: Haven’t forgotten, still waiting for how Jesus, conceived of the spirit, could possibly be the Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill the simple requirement of being of the seed (biological descendent) of David and Solomon. Or how Jesus’ lineage can go through Jeconiah, who God said was to be remembered as childless. Tic-Tok

    Me: I AM NOT FINISHED YET!

    Me: PLEASE BE!!!

    YOU ARE SIMPLY NOT ONLY  BLIND!

    BUT DEAD!

    JUST READ AGAIN WHAT I SAID IN THE POST #946209

    Mary’s husband Joseph, who was Heli’s son-in-law,

    became Heli’s legal son to continue Heli’s family line.

    The point of all of this is that in the culture of ancient Israel, inheritance from father to son was so significant and essential that,

    FOR ALL LEGAL INTENTS AND PURPOSES,
    Jesus was Joseph’s son,

    even if He was not Joseph’s biological son.

    Then there’s also the case of a stepson who took on

    the LEGAL status of his stepfather.

    Hence: Jesus can be recognized as

    “Solomon’s son”
    through Jesus’ step-father, Joseph.

    Matthew’s purpose is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews would have recognized from this genealogical list that Jesus had

    the LEGAL right to inherit the throne of David.
    Luke’s purpose was just to show from Mary’s genealogy that she came from the blood-line of David which showed that

    Jesus was a BLOOD-LINE descendant of David.

    The scepter and throne of David and Solomon, descendants of Judah, will come to the

    Messiah Jesus, who will rule and reign forever:

    The scepter and throne are Jesus’ legal inheritance, through his earthly paternal lineage.

    But for YOU who has a problem with Jesus’ not being a biological descendant of Solomon, through Joseph,

    the scepter also is Jesus’ biological inheritance, since

    He is a direct descendant of King David,

    through his maternal lineage.
    You: I know, my questions are meant to be ignored

    ???????????????????

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946347
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    YAWN!! Everything you wrote is an extrapolation of your mind and not in the word of God. No where is it written Abraham had ED; created in your mind.

    God never spoke to man in riddles; riddles are what you are creating in your mind.

    Still no evidence, except in your mind, that God was the one who impregnated Sarah.

    Joseph is of the line of Jeconiah who God said is childless; still waiting for where it is written Jeconiah was restored to the Davidic line. Without that, every descendant after Jeconiah is meaningless.

    Stop quoting from the Tanakh, you believe it’s obsolete AND you’re demonstrating your lack of understanding of the words written within.

    Carmel, no one care about your supposed “expert spiritual mind” because it’s not grounded in reality and more importantly, God’s Word. The words written in the pages of he bible are to be understood as they are written first and that meaning will take precedence over any extrapolated thought you can come up with. Understanding God’s Word as it is written has nothing to do with being “carnally minded”, it’s understanding God’s Word as HE intended. You however, have elevated yourself as some superior spiritual guru who has received all this “spiritual wisdom”; when in reality you sound a little cuckoo-for-cocoa puffs.

    #946348
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Jesus bridged this gulf, and made a way for man to come to God.

    ME: Jesus saved us from death, where in death we are separated from YHVH our heavenly Father, our one and only true God.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance:

    Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

    35:31 And he hath filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

    Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: 22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. 23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king’s matter…44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    Berean, our heavenly Father’s Spirit has been at work upon the earth from the beginning, before and after Adam and Eve sinned.

    His Spirit is at work all over the earth, if it were not so, we’d all be cavemen living as savages. Without his mercy we would live in a world of nothing but wickedness 24/7.

    If your spirit reflects patience or kindness or self control, such is God’s Spirit at work in you.  If you think this is not so then you believe in self-righteousness and you make yourself into a false god.

    Not just attributes of a righteous character comes directly from God’s Spirit but wisdom and understanding as well. Even the cutting of stone and carving of timber is wisdom that came from God. God gives wisdom but if He does not also give righteous attributes it will be used for evil instead of good.

    Our heavenly Father’s Spirit giving wisdom and understanding calls us into believing in the gospel, believing in Jesus Christ. The Father’s Spirit in us calls us to Christ.

    Further, all kings and rulers of the earth and their boundaries throughout history all were established according to His will.

    Berean, what you have said is the complete opposite of what is true. Our heavenly Father’s Spirit is at work upon the earth according to His will.

    Jesus was begotten of YHVH’s Spirit without measure, he received all the gifts of the Spirit as well as the great powers of the Spirit. He was filled with the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, council and might, knowledge and fear of the YHVH our Creator. He was anointed of the Spirit to be sent out into the world to do YHVH’s works in His name and to fulfill His covenant, saving us from an eternal death. He was raised from the dead as a firstborn of many brethren where in him we do believe in YHVH our God, that we will be made into the image of His Son. We will also be Sons of God being led by the Spirit of God. We also will have God’s Spirit bear witness to our spirit that we are children of God. Jesus saved us from death, where in death we are separated from YHVH our heavenly Father, our one and only true God.  

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