John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,561 through 25,580 (of 25,990 total)
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  • #946293
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi all,

    There is misunderstanding for many of the final fate of the lost. May these explanations help us.

    God bless.

     

     

    Christ’s Meaning of “Eternal” Fire, Punishment, Damnation

    Christ thrice speaks of the doom of the wicked as being, or involving, something “eternal.” His three important warning statements are: CFF1 288.3

    (1) Mark 3:29—“He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost .. is in danger of eternal damnation 2 [aioniou kriseos, “eternal judgment”].” CFF1 288.4

    (2) Matthew 25:46—“These shall go away into everlasting punishment [kolasin aionion] but the righteous into life eternal [zoen aionion].” (Cf. Paul, 2 Thessalonians 1:9) CFF1 288.5

    (3) Matthew 25:41—“Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire [to pur to aionion], prepared for the devil and his angels.” CFF1 288.6

    In the first instance there is a distinct and consummating act, coupled with endless duration of result—the sentence being everlasting in its consequences. It is the sin that throughout the ages remains unpardoned. 3 In the second, the “punishment” and the suffering are not identical—the punishment is likewise eternal in its effects whereas the suffering ends in utter abolition, or cessation, of being. And in the third, the fire is called “everlasting” because its results are everlasting. It is not simply a fire, but “the fire”—the one “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). It ends in destruction and ashes. CFF1 288.7

    Picture 1: Conflict Between Christ and Satan:
    The Conflict of the Ages Has Been Between Satan, the Rebel and Source of Evil, and Christ, the Creator and Redeemer, Judge and Coming King.
    Page 289

    1. MEANING DETERMINED BY NOUN TO WHICH ATTACHED
    In each of these passages the Greek word for “everlasting,” or “eternal,” is the adjective aionios—derived from the noun aion, an “age” or “era”—the word itself leaving the time limit of the age undefined. The late Bishop H. C. G. Moule, of Durham, in his Outline of Christian Doctrine, soundly declared that the term of duration expressed by aionios must always be sought in the noun to which it is attached, not in the modifying aionios itself. Therefore, to determine its true meaning we must carefully trace its usage in Scripture, and seek out the noun it modifies. CFF1 289.1

    God, and things divine, are incontestably endless—thus involving the full and unrestricted meaning. But earthly things will not last beyond the earth in its present age or form. Thus the aionion Mosaic statutes and the aionion Aaronic priesthood belonged to a passing dispensation—and ceased. The adjective aionios there obviously stood for a limited time only “age long”—the noun it modified determining the term of duration. CFF1 290.1

    On the contrary, “life eternal” (zoen aionion), for the righteous, is used more than forty times. That life will be unending. But in contrast, the runaway slave, Onesimus (Philemon 1:15), who was to serve his master “for ever” (likewise aionion), was to serve only as long as he lived. Clearly the substantive, or noun, determines the meaning. CFF1 290.2

    2. DIVINE ACTIONS OR ACTIVITIES MAY BE TERMINABLE
    Christ clearly taught that divine conditions or Persons abide unendingly, whereas divine actions or activities may be terminable, for example, punishment (Matthew 25:46); judgment (Hebrews 6:2); sin (Mark 3:29); destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9); salvation (Hebrews 5:9); redemption and fire (Matthew 18:8; Matthew 25:41; Jude 1:7). These expressions obviously do not mean endless punishing, judging, sinning, destroying, saving, redeeming. Endless salvation is not endless saving, but represents a completed work of grace. CFF1 290.3

    The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was not endless in its process, but was completely endless in its results. The “unquenchable fire” that “burns up” the chaff, will not keep that chaff forever burning. Again we see that the noun to which the modifying aionios is attached, automatically determines the unlimited or the limited meaning—such as “eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:15), or “everlasting [eternal] gospel” (Revelation 14:6). CFF1 290.4

    Thus in Matthew 25:46 the living state of the righteous is endless, and the death—punishment state, or condition, of the wicked, produced by the process of destruction, is a death state as endless as the contrasting life state is endless. But the process is not eternal, only the result. We must therefore concur with Bishop Moule and other recognized scholars that the noun to which aionios is attached is the determinative factor. In one case it is terminable; in another it is interminable.

    https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/953.2036

    #946294
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Many of your objections can be answered by the biblical fact
    that Jesus Christ will come again to start
    the thousand-year reign here on this earth.
    In this time period many prophecies will be fulfilled.
    You never thought about that?

    A little research would answer all your objections.
    Anyway, trust in the Bible. God didn’t mislead us.
    He was and is the sovereign Lord of history.

    #946295
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You: Many of your objections can be answered by the biblical fact that Jesus Christ will come again to start the thousand-year reign here on this earth. In this time period many prophecies will be fulfilled. You never thought about that?

    Me: It’s what I used to believe, until I started verifying what I was told is “truth.”

    Explain Isaiah 11:12 (“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”) and how it factors into this coming “millennial age.” The Messiah is to gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. This passage is speaking of both kingdoms – Israel and Judah, North and South; since the Jewish people reject Jesus, how does the Jesus messiah gather these people back to Israel? At this point, for rejecting Jesus, wouldn’t they be in “hell”? Who will be gathered; the “converted” Jew? But wait, didn’t Paul say there were neither Jew nor Greek (gentile)? Which is it, are Jews and gentiles separate or not?

    No one has been able to explain how Jesus could possibly be the messiah when he isn’t a biological descendant/seed of David. Jesus, according to both Matthew and Luke, was conceived of the spirit; which excludes Joseph as the father of Jesus AND it was God who told David in 2 Samuel 7:12-13 that David’s kingdom would continue on thru his son Solomon forever! This would mean the Messiah would have to come thru this lineage…PERIOD!! There is no question to the meaning of what God spoke to David or are you saying God broke HIS promise to David? You must reject the words of God to continue to accept Jesus as the messiah; and you say I’m in trouble if I don’t believe in the Jesus.

    #946296
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I believe my Bible. I don’t trust you. I believe you are one of them lying freemasons/servants of the devil!!

    #946297
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: The question still stands, how can Jesus be the messiah when his biological father isn’t of the line of David, the line of Solomon, or a descendant of Abraham;

    when Jesus’ “father” is the spirit?

    I REPEAT WHAT I SAID IN MY POST: 946277

    TRUTH HURTS!!!!

    ME: SO IS THAT HOW YOU BELIEVE IN A GOD WHO IS OMNIPOTENT???

    YOU SIMPLY CONCLUDED THAT GOD IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING HIMSELF THE BIOLOGICAL FATHER OF HIS SON IN THE LINE OF DAVID, THE LINE OF SOLOMON, OR A DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM, EVEN WITHOUT THE LEAST INVOLVEMENT OF THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THIS SATANIC WORLD!

    AM I RIGHT???

    DT. GET THIS INTO YOUR CORRUPTED WORLDLY WISDOM ONCE AND FOR ALL!

    THAT FLESH AND ITS PROCESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD’S WORK,

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL HIS WORK!

    Jeremiah:27Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall anything be hard for me?

    Me:: IS ISAAC BORN THROUGH NORMAL HUMAN INTERCOURSE?

    You: Why do you keep placing the Creator of all on the same level as fake Greek and Roman gods who impregnate mortal women?

    IF YOU REALLY ARE “A DESIRETRUTH”,  IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE APPROPRIATE  TO SAY A MERE

    YES or NO!

    INSTEAD, YOU OPTED TO PLAY WITH WORDS, WHICH PROVES THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN SMELLING THE TRUTH, THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AS YOU PROCLAIM YOURSELF YOU ARE

     “DESIRETRUTH”

    You: Again read chapter 18 and 21 of Genesis and let your mind figure it out…

    it’s not that hard.

    Wait, you have yet to prove that it was the spirit of God who impregnated Sarah;

    where is the scriptural evidence it wasn’t Abraham who got Sarah pregnant.

    ME: WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS ABRAHAM WHO GOT SARAH PREGNANT?

    THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER PRODUCED ANY!

    You: After all, didn’t Abraham copulate with Hagar at the “ripe old age” of 86, baring him a son, Ishmael?

    IT LOOKS TO ME THAT, THOUGH THERE IS SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE, THAT ABRAHAM COPULATED WITH HAGAR, THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER PRODUCED IT, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE

    IT CONTRADICTS YOU!!!

    SINCE THERE’S NOT EVEN A MERE SIMILAR HINT IN THE CASE OF ISAAC, IN FACT, THERE’S MORE  EVIDENCE NOT ONLY IN SCRIPTURE BUT ALSO IN JEWISH LITERATURE THAT ISAAC IS MORE A SON OF GOD THAN A SON OF BARAHAM!

    So Abraham didn’t have a problem making babies ….

     YOUR COMMENT IS NOT JUSTIFIED! AFTER THE AFFAIR WITH HAGAR, THE LAST SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE BEFORE ISAAC’S DIVINE CONCEPTION.

    You: Haven’t forgotten, still waiting for how Jesus,

    conceived of the spirit, could possibly be the Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill the simple requirement of being of the seed (biological descendent) of David.

     

    JUST READ WHAT I SAID IN THE POST #946209

    Mary’s husband Joseph, who was Heli’s son-in-law,

    became Heli’s legal son to continue Heli’s family line.

    The point of all of this is that in the culture of ancient Israel, inheritance from father to son was so significant and essential that,

    FOR ALL LEGAL INTENTS AND PURPOSES,
    Jesus was Joseph’s son,

    even if He was not Joseph’s biological son.

    Then there’s also the case of a stepson who took on

     the LEGAL status of his stepfather.

    Hence: Jesus can be recognized as

     “Solomon’s son”

    through Jesus’ step-father, Joseph.

    Matthew’s purpose is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews would have recognized from this genealogical list that Jesus had

    the LEGAL right to inherit the throne of David.
    Luke’s purpose was just to show from Mary’s genealogy that she came from the blood-line of David which showed that

    Jesus was a BLOOD-LINE descendant of David.

    The scepter and throne of David and Solomon, descendants of Judah, will come to the

    Messiah Jesus, who will rule and reign forever:

    The scepter and throne are Jesus’ legal inheritance, through his earthly paternal lineage.

    But for YOU who has a problem with Jesus’ not being a biological descendant of Solomon, through Joseph,

    the scepter also is Jesus’ biological inheritance, since

    He is a direct descendant of King David,

     through his maternal lineage.

    You: I know, my questions are meant to be ignored 

    ???????????????????

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946298
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Once again you have brought your spiritual intellect; proving once again you don’t know why you believe what you believe.

    What does freemasonry have to do with anything?!?! Noahide is what I would identify with and freemasonry and Noahide are not the same; in fact, I would say they’re polar opposites. Look up what Noahide is; you might learn something.

    Also, you realize I am quoting from the same book you supposedly believe in or is it the last half you believe in and the front half is pointless? You can literally look up those references to see what they say; but I’m a liar, guess it’s easier to falsely accuse someone than to spend some time studying the material yourself. Beginning to wonder if you know what liar means. You don’t need to trust me, just as you shouldn’t blindly follow your religious leaders, no matter how much earthly education they have; you do, however, need to listen to what God said and HE spoke in the Tanakh.

    #946299
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

    #946300
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Prove Jesus is the messiah spoken of in the Tanakh; the fact Jesus isn’t a biological descendant of David and Solomon is the most glaring evidence that eliminates him as being the true messiah. The last I checked the spirit isn’t human and both Matthew and Luke tell us Jesus’ father is the spirit.

    Settle this with facts!

    #946301
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,
    You: I REPEAT WHAT I SAID IN MY POST: 946277 TRUTH HURTS!!!!
    Me: You have to present truth first.

    You: YOU SIMPLY CONCLUDED THAT GOD IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING HIMSELF THE BIOLOGICAL FATHER OF HIS SON IN THE LINE OF DAVID, THE LINE OF SOLOMON, OR A DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM, EVEN WITHOUT THE LEAST INVOLVEMENT OF THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THIS SATANIC WORLD!
    Me: No, because that’s not what he told David.

    You: FLESH AND ITS PROCESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD’S WORK
    Me: Last I checked HE worked specifically through mankind to accomplish HIS will.

    You: YOU ARE NOT EVEN SMELLING THE TRUTH
    Me: Can one smell an “idea”?!? Asking for a friend.

    You: WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS ABRAHAM WHO GOT SARAH PREGNANT?
    Me: You are the one who claimed it was God who impregnated Sarah. It’s not up to me to disprove you, you made the claim; prove it!

    You: IT LOOKS TO ME THAT, THOUGH THERE IS SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE, THAT ABRAHAM COPULATED WITH HAGAR, THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER PRODUCED IT, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IT CONTRADICTS YOU!!!
    Me: Since there is scriptural evidence (and you admit there is) Abraham got Hagar pregnant, how exactly have I contradicted myself?!? Confused!

    You: AFTER THE AFFAIR WITH HAGAR
    Me: How can Abraham getting Hagar pregnant be an “affair” when Sarah told him to sleep with her (Gen 16)?

    Concerning your last bit of drivel, Luke goes through David’s son Nathan to get to Jesus through Mary and therefore is irrelevant as the lineage to the Messiah is through Solomon per God. Luke is a liar. The account from the writer of Matthew is just as wrong because he puts Jesus’ lineage through Jeconiah, who God said was to be remembered as childless. Matthew is a liar. Unless you can give scriptural proof Jechoniah’s kingship was restored, I’ll go with what God actually said. Never mind the FACT Jesus is not a biological (seed) descendant of David and Solomon since he was “conceived” of the spirit. The words are simple, but you must do this “dance of justification” so your religious belief won’t crumble; except it does under the weight of the lies within it.

    If you ignore a lie, does it make it truth?

    #946302
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Danny,

    YOU:

    John 1:4 speaking about the Word:
    In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    John 5:26
    For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Jesus is the Word. He has life in HIMSELF.

    ME:

    I’d like to first highlight that the Father gave to the Son to have life in himself.

    And what do we know of, that God also gave?

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it ABODE UPON HIM.

    And what does the Spirit do?

    Ephesians 5:For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

    Romans 8:10 And if Christ (anointed one of the Spirit) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit IS LIFE BECAUSE OF righteousness.

    The Spirit causes righteousness WHICH BRINGS FORTH LIFE.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth, I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Our Creator gave a promise concerning ONLY ONE man, a man who would fulfill our Creator’s covenant through His Spirit aboding in him, which was a calling to righteousness, a GLORY our Creator was giving ONLY to him.

    The Spirit that came to abode in him brings forth the fruit of all righteousness and the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    As you provided Danny, “so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself”.

    According to scripture, life comes through righteousness and righteousness is the fruit of God’s Spirit right? and God gave His Spirit to abode in Jesus, a calling to righteousness, therefore he gave Jesus  thus to have life in himself through His Spirit aboding in him. 

    #946303
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    I want to speak further about the verse you spoke of and look now at the surrounding context and apply it also to my last post and speak to this all leading us to THE WORD.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Romans 5:9 The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and truth.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained, whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Jesus IS NOT our CREATOR, he is a man who has been ordained by our Creator since before the world even began. He is a man himself who received God’s Spirit, a calling to righteousness, to then judge the world in that righteousness and reward believers with the Spirit to which causes righteousness and brings forth eternal life.

    God PROMISED eternal life before the world began.

    The Spirit is life because of righteousness and thus a PROMISE of eternal life is a PROMISE of God’s Spirit. 

    This is the gospel, this is the good news, this is THE WORD

    This WORD was made true in Jesus at the river Jordan and then upon him rising from the dead receiving THE PROMISED SPIRIT/this day have I begotten thee. 

    The WORD spoken by the prophet Isaiah to which God had declared from the beginning and the reason why God had made all things in the first place (John 1:2-3) was made true in Jesus at the river Jordan, this was the beginning of the PROMISED WORD fulfilled, the WORD fulfilled for people to be a witness to and then a witness later when it was fulfilled again when he rose from the dead. Not only was this the beginning of the WORD made true, it then was the beginning of the PROMISED WORD being preached by Jesus (John 1:1).

    Jesus taught that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s eternal kingdom. 

    Jesus taught that we would be baptized as he was baptized and that we would drink of the cup of the One Spirit as he drinks of but to sit to his right or to his left in the kingdom was up to the Father.

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    It’s not about believing that Jesus pre-existed as our Creator speaking creation into existence. It’s about God’s WORD before the world even began, believing that the Father came to dwell in Jesus of Nazareth to which causes, righteousness unto eternal life. With that righteousness Jesus was able to obey all of God’s commands denying his own will and conquer his weak mortal flesh, for the power of God’s Spirit in him superseded overall other powers.

    Jesus became the example of the works of God’s Spirit, that it does cause one to be able to be led in all of God’s ways. In such we are then justified as Jesus is proof of the fruit of God’s Spirit in man, righteousness unto eternal life. 

    Danny,  Isaiah 11 tells us that it is a man who is judging and rewarding us with life through being led by our Creator’s Spirit that is aboding in him, “those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God”.  

    Jesus has the authority to judge and reward others with the Spirit and thus eternal life because the Spirit is aboding in him. Exactly why we are told that God has given him to have life in himself.

    God is Spirit, God is Righteous and God is Life. His WORD from the beginning, even before the world was, is Him, the Promise that He will abode in us, beget us with His Spirit. 

    Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren. We are to be conformed to the image of the Son and Paul directly gives us the image of the Son, it is one who is led by the Spirit of God, it is one where the Spirit is aboding in you being a witness to your spirit that you indeed are a child of God.

    ONLY Jesus however was begotten of God’s Spirit called to righteousness TO fulfill God’s covenant being for a light to the world. This was a glory promised to only one man, a man chosen from among the people to whom God had created and given the breath of life to and a spirit to walk therein. 

    #946304
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @ All

    I called on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation.
    I’ve committed many sins. The struggle was real.
    Back-and-forth. Back-and-forth. Back-and-forth.
    But know I feel peace inside.

    #946305
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny and All,

    Danny, I am happy to hear that you are finding peace in your struggles through Jesus Christ.

    Just want to speak to everyone regarding your words, “I called on the name of Jesus Christ”

    Jesus name means- YHVH is salvation

    Christ means -anointed

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord YHVH is upon me because YHVH hath ANOINTED me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.

    In Luke 4, Jesus quoted the above concerning himself having been fulfilled.

    Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles. 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    The child born, Jesus of Nazareth, was recognized by Simeon through God’s Spirit as the Son of Man who was promised to one day be anointed of the Spirit of YHVH in order to fulfill God’s covenant, a child who would one day be for a light unto both Jews and Gentiles where he’d deliver captives, where he would bring forth salvation.

    In TRUTH, calling upon the name of Jesus Christ means that you believe that the Spirit of YHVH did come to dwell in the man Jesus, for the purpose (anointing) that through YHVH’s Spirit aboding in him he would bring forth our salvation.

    Jesus’s name means- YHVH is salvation 

    Christ means -anointed

    Jesus was anointed of the Spirit of YHVH which caused our salvation. 

    No wonder, for the fruit of God’s Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth and it was begotten in Jesus, where he is a promised firstborn of many brethren. 

    We have salvation through God’s Spirit having come to abode in Jesus wherein such opened the path for God’s Spirit to then come to dwell in us. Salvation/deliverance and eternal life is through God’s Spirit because it causes righteousness and where there is righteousness there is eternal life.

    #946306
    T3
    Participant

    @Jodi: Hear, hear!

    #946307
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T3…..AMEN TO THAT, Jodi nailed it again.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #946308
    Jodi
    Participant

    Thank you T3 and Gene!

    Hi DT,

    At this point, as you continue to show your unbelief and want to debate to that unbelief I believe you really should be moving to the Skeptics forum and look to discuss this over there.

    Or might I suggest DT starting a 1:1 debate thread with individual people where you can both freely choose to debate over all that you like.

    I know that we have unfinished business but I am not going to continue debating with you on this thread.

    This particular thread now seems like a one stop shop for all topics up for debate, the fault of all of us it seems and I think we should try to get back to discussing different topics as much as possible within an appropriate thread.

     

    #946309
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

     

    ….AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

    God bless

    #946310
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Jesus name means- YHVH is salvation
    Christ means -anointed
    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord YHVH is upon me because YHVH hath ANOINTED me…

    Me: I believe that. Even Trinitarians believe that. (I’m not a Trinitarian.)

    God bless

    #946319
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Our salvation from sin is only possible because of the precious blood of Jesus Christ that was lovingly shed for all mankind!
    (Ephesians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Revelation 1:5)

    #946320
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU: I believe that. Even Trinitarians believe that. (I’m not a Trinitarian.)

    ME: Well, let’s look at this a bit further and see where you stand.

    I have debated on here with trinitarians and non trinitarians who both have told me that Jesus’s name is “YHVH is salvation” because Jesus is himself YHVH. They both have also said that Jesus was born already existing as “Christ”.

    In these debates, the Spirit descending upon Jesus and coming down from heaven to abode in him is not given at all the great significance it so very much deserves. They don’t equate it to that which scripture clearly provides us with.  Instead,  their significance is held in their belief that a Son of God left his heavenly glory and obeyed the Father to come down to earth and abode in a human body, wherein that life began from a conception in Mary’s womb.

    They say we are saved by God sending His only begotten Son down to earth. They say he was resurrected returning to the glory he had before the world began.

    I say that we are saved through God’s Spirit having come to dwell in the man Jesus, where he was then sent out into the world being fully led by the Spirit and where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life. If the Spirit in man brings forth righteousness to eternal life, no wonder we see that God could not hold Jesus to the penalty of death, He raised him from the dead giving him the PROMISED SPIRITto dwell in him for all eternity. This was all purposed by YHVH before the world began where everything that was then made by YHVH was made through this WORD.

    YHVH is salvation, His Spirit in man brings forth salvation. This should be obvious, as the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and truth and where there is righteousness there is eternal life.

    This is the WORD made true in the flesh, in Jesus! Jesus was then sent to preach that it would be made true in us, saying that we would be baptized with the baptism he received and we would drink of the cup that he drinks of. He preached it saying a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.

     

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